Women and Men: some issues

[Spider Woman]

I started thinking about this while reading Wildest Bill's thread about whether or not to put the toilet seat up or down. This seemed to touch a nerve with me and some of the other women who posted there.

Sam Stone brought up the fact that there may be other issues involved when people are upset about the toilet lid, or how the toothpaste is squeezed, etc. I think he is right (about that part of his post).

The Central Minnesota area where I live is considered to be, for the most part, quite conservative, and somewhat behind the times (by my way of thinking) politically and socially. Many of the women I worked with in a factory for many years thought nothing of going home after working all day, and then making supper, taking care of the kids and doing all the housework, while the hubby sat in front of the television (a few of them actually read the newspaper). Some of these women did the outside work also, such as the gardening and mowing the lawn.

My first ex-husband was somewhat like these husbands. We got along pretty well when we were first married, because I was young and stupid and didn't mind doing all the housework even though we both worked full time. It made me feel like an adult (I was 21 when we married).

After we started having babies, I simply could no longer keep up. When I asked him for help, he refused. I asked him if he thought it was fair that we both worked full time (and for at least half of the ten years we were married, I out-earned him) but did not divide the housework. He replied, "I don't care if the house is clean. If you want it clean, clean it yourself."

The toilet seat was an issue in that marriage. There were other issues also, but it sort of boiled down to being a power struggle. He seemed to feel that because he was the man, he was the king of the house and I, as the woman, should obey him.

My dad, who is in his seventies, thinks that the women's liberation movement ruined the fabric of this country. He believes that women used to have it pretty good when they stayed home and took care of the men, and Betty Freidan and Gloria Steinem ruined a good thing for us.

I think that times are indeed changing, but it seems to be difficult for those in power to let go of it, or to share it. Some people even want to revoke the 19th amendment.

So here, finally, is my question to the Dopers:

How do you work this out in your own lives, married, living together, seriously dating a member of the opposite sex (or even the same sex, if these issues somehow apply). Do you and your partner have a way of working things out that you feel is fair to you both, or is it a constant power struggle, a one-up-man-ship contest?

[slythe, I hope this belongs here and not in Great Debates. I'll let you be the judge.]

[tatertot]

Oooh, tricky question, Spider Woman, this is something that has been hashed and rehashed the entire time I've been with my husband.

*Standard Disclaimer: I Love My Husband Very Much*

I am a stay-at-home mother, and as such, I fully expect to do 95% of the housework. However, it gets on my last goshdarn nerve when Hubby does not do what little bit I expect him to. For example: I am more than willing to do the dishes, but I am not willing to pick them up from wherever he's left them around the house. I do the laundry, but I don't think I should have to go through every nook and cranny in the house looking for his dirty socks.

I see this as a respect issue, he tells me that he just "forgets". I don't think he realizes how much extra work he is creating for me...I did not choose to stay home because I love housework, I stay home to spend time with our son.

I'll say this, perhaps if he could "remember" to rinse his icky facial hair, shaving cream scum and toothpaste out of the sink every morning, I might "remember" to be in the mood more that 2.5 nights a week.

Suffice it to say, that we have not completely worked through this problem.

[Spider Woman]

A friend of mine who lives around here used to work full time. When she discovered that her husband expected her to do all the traditionally "wimmen's work," she told him "If I hold an outside job, you are helping with the housework."

They solved this by her staying home to be a housewife and mother, and he has the job outside of the home. Eventually, they found they needed more money, so she began doing daycare in her home. He still stuck to the original agreement, and she still had to do all the housework.

Their kids are all grown up now, and I must say, her husband has grown up too. He stopped being an idiot and realized what a gem of a wife he has, but it was a gradual process. I admire her for having more staying power than I did, but I feel that she lost much, too.

I guess everybody has to pick their battles, but it seems like every married couple I talk to has some of these issues.

[tatertot]

I would also like to add that I am training TinyTot to be different, but it would sure help if his father would set a better example.

Many of the women I worked with in a factory for many years thought nothing of going home after working all day, and then making supper, taking care of the kids and doing all the housework, while the hubby sat in front of the television (a few of them actually read the newspaper).

This makes me so mad! You just described the family that I grew up in. And as I start taking on more freelance assignments, things had better change around the Tot household...grrrrr. I will be anxiously follwing this thread, trying to find ways to solve this problem.

(BTW, I would like to give a big raspberry to Redbook magazine for publishing those articles on how to get hubby to help with the housework. "Let him do it his way" they say. Don't they know that husbands like mine take these magazines to the bathroom with them, trying to find pictures of boobies? Hubby reads that and thinks "Gee, I'll just do things to my standards and then I'll get wild monkey sex". Umm, no. Do I get credit for half-assed work? Hell no. If I did things to his "standards" we would have all died from food poisoning or dust asyphiation a long time ago. I see their point, but these things should only be discussed at our top secret women's meetings, not in a magazine that they'll let anyone buy.)

Sorry for my rant - today is Fall Cleaning Day.

[Spider Woman]

I'm glad to hear that TinyTot may have a different outlook on things. Unfortunately, if he sees his dad not helping with things, he might have more of a tendency to slip into his dad's ways if/when he marries (sorry to sound cynical), because of his dad being his main male role model.

The trick I heard some men telling each other at the factory where I worked: when you are asked to do something, do it so badly that they'll eventually get tired of asking you to do it, and do it themselves.

The magazine articles like that bother me, because I don't think men should have to be manipulated or tricked into doing what's right. But those articles apparently sell magazines.

[tatertot, what kind of freelancing do you do?]

[tatertot]

I think I might have painted MisterTot in a much more negative light than he deserves. He's bad, but all in all he's a good man. We do have to work on this issue, but it's nothing I'd divorce him over.

Women's magazines suck.

I do a little big of everything, actually. Mostly marketing, but since jobs are so limited here (and I don't have a work permit), I find myself doing things all sorts of things. Right now, I'm translating French porn flicks into English. Go ahead, make a joke, everyone else has.

[el_mono]

Uh, ladies, 'scuse me. I just gotta jump in on this one (and I suspect that it'll be a popular thread). Sure, there are differnces in the way that men and women operate, but damn, ain't that part of the mystique? Here's my opinion, and it may seem a bit simplistic, but I think that most of us fail to choose wisely when selecting a mate. Blinded by lust, needs, desires or mind-altering substances we end up saddled with a mate or SO with whom we have very little in common. Having made this error it is only natural to allow little things to loom larger and larger as we search for justification to get the hell out of a lousy relationship.
Relationships of any type are hard work. As a single father with a 17 yo daughter living with me I have been required to make more adjustments than a chiropractor with an office next door to gym. It's all about about compromise. I think that we make the man/woman issue way too complicated. Venus? Mars? Bullshit, we're all from the same planet and wasting time searching for convenient excuses removes the focus from the real problem. Usually it turns out that we are our own worst enemies and fail to realize just how much power we have over our lives.
That's the way I see it; what are your views?

[Spider Woman]

Who did/does the housework in the relationship from whence the 17 year old daughter came?

I agree about differences being interesting. I just don't believe in abuse of power, or doing (or not doing) something just because you know you can get away with it, as was the case in the marriages described to me by my factory co-workers.

I grew tired of arguing with my first husband over lots of issues, and I also grew tired of cleaning up his messes. He now lives alone, and his apartment is filthy, and he is a lonely man. But if that had been the only issue between us, I may have been willing to put up with him.

Thanks for your input; this is an issue for both men and women.

[astorian]

I don't know any of the parties in question here- MAYBE the men in question ARE just lazy slobs who ought to pitch in and do more housework. Certainly, many men DO fall into that category.

BUT...

It appears that, even when women are working full-time, they STILL expect the house to look as if June Cleaver were home cleaning it every day. They THEN start resenting their husbands for not doing their "fair share" to create that Cleaver-esque household.

SOME men are just lazy. But just as often, men don't see a NEED for a toilet so clean you can eat out of it!

Isn't it possible- just possible- that women should accept a certain level of imperfection in their households, rathering than simmering at their husbands?

[Spider Woman]

I think you have a good point there. Anyone looking at my house would tell you that I am not an immaculate housekeeper, but in this area there are many women who are, so that may be a bone of contention in those households.

But there are other "house cleaning" chores that simply must be done, such as laundry, and cooking, or people will wear dirty, smelly clothing, and have nothing to eat. And there are many men who refuse to have anything to do with these tasks also, even when both the men and women work full time.

[Ruffian]

Actually, thus far, it is not a problem. I am more organized than he is, but he likes things clean and does a fair share. As far as when we're married and who's doing what chore, we've mentioned that the inside of the house will be my forté and the outside (gardening, lawncare, etc) will be his. This doesn't mean I won't do any of the outside work, or that he won't lift a finger inside. He is not the type, thank God, to sit on the couch while I cook dinner and then clean it up. When I do cook, he likes to help out--both in the cooking and cleaning up. We see it as a partnership...equals...both responsible for the mess we make. A certain amount of give will be necessary; I, the more anal one, will have to learn to live with a little more clutter, and he, the "casual" one, will have to learn to be a little more organized. Just a little meeting-in-the-middle.

[Spider Woman]

Ruffian, that is lovely. I wish there were more guys like DeathLlama around, and maybe there will be for my daughters' generation. Happiness to you both.

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[matt_mcl]

I shared my first apartment with my on-again-off-again (now permanently "off") boyfriend Éric. He was completely anal-retentive about housework. I didn't know how to explain to him that the Pope wasn't coming for mac and cheese tomorrow, so we ended up having some very large fights.

[pepperlandgirl]

Well, me and Jim sorta share the work. If he has the day off and I'm at school, then he does all the house-work. If I have the day off and he's at work, then I do all the house-work. If we are both off together, we divvy up the chores. (Me: You clean the kitchen, I'll do the laundry. Him: Why don't you clean the kitchen? Me: You are the only one who knows how to do it right, Dear.)
We rarely have fights about it. Though, no matter what, I always cook dinner. I know, I know, I should just teach him, and then he can do it too. But I've come to to the conclusion that no matter how patient I am, he will not learn to cook. It doesn't bother me though.
FTR, he always puts the toilet seat down. His mother trained him well, I didn't even have to nag him about it. And thankfully, neither one of us have issues over the toothpaste.

[Feynn]

Lola and I seem to have it worked out because neither of us are traditionalists in any sense of the word. With me working 50+ hours a week and with her going to school we just do what has to be done when we have the time.

I get up in the moring and while Lola gets ready for school I make the coffee and help her get her stuff together. When it gets cold I'll be going out to start the van and wipe the snow off in the mornings. (There is a remote starter in our future). After she leaves for school I get the boys up and get them ready and out the door to school. By then the girls are awake and there's a baby who needs to be changed, fed, bathed, and cuddled. Our other daughter is three and is gettting almost too self sufficient. If the girls are content I can usually get the house picked up and get my stuff ready for the day. When Lola gets home I head for work. When I get home there is more stuff to do and I usually get the kids to bed so that Lola can work on homework...

I know men who are simply amazed that I cook, clean, and do laundry. These are generally older guys who had wives that stayed at home while they worked.

Don't ever say that I "babysit" my kids. Moms don't babysit and neither do dads.

I put the seat down and freak out when people leave clothes lying all over the place or mess up the bathroom.

Note: Our house always looks like a cyclone went through it even if it was cleaned five minutes before.

I just consider this the way men should be and don't see myself as being unusual.

[Rysdad]

Originally posted by Spider Woman
The Central Minnesota area where I live is considered to be, for the most part, quite conservative, and somewhat behind the times (by my way of thinking) politically and socially. Many of the women I worked with in a factory for many years thought nothing of going home after working all day, and then making supper, taking care of the kids and doing all the housework, while the hubby sat in front of the television (a few of them actually read the newspaper). Some of these women did the outside work also, such as the gardening and mowing the lawn.

:::hooks thumbs in belt, assumes a prideful stance:::

"Ya shoor, our Minnesota vimmen, dey know dere place."

Too bad I've never met any of 'em.

In those instances that I've shared accomodations with a woman, housework/yardwork gradually evolved into each person assuming the duties that the other person disliked the most. For example, I hate washing dishes, but I don't mind doing laundry. I don't enjoy vacuuming, but I like to keep the bathroom clean. The ex- was not a good cook, and I am, so I did the cooking alot.

The biggest problem we had was after our son was born. I was working full-time, and she was staying home. In my mind, since she was staying home and could sleep during the day, she should be the one who got up in the middle of the night. She didn't agree.

One more thing, I don't need to be told that the lawn needs to be mowed. I can see that. It doesn't, however, mean that I'm going to mow it this minute. Telling me, repeatedley, that it needs to be mowed won't get it done any sooner. It can wait until this weekend.

[Spider Woman]

I am glad to hear that there is more sharing in the younger generation of relationships, although I guess there will always be disagreement as to how clean or neat or well kept a residence needs to be.

What makes me sad is when people use an established power structure to justify what they want to do, even if it may not be right, as some men in this community do in invoking the old saw "That's wimmen's work."

To paraphrase an Oskar Schindler quote from the death penalty thread, just because you have the power to do something, doesn't make doing it right.

And some old power structures don't die easily.

[Scarlett67]

Originally posted by Feynn
Lola and I seem to have it worked out because neither of us are traditionalists in any sense of the word. With me working 50+ hours a week and with her going to school we just do what has to be done when we have the time.

Same here. Mr. Scarlett leaves for work around 6:30 am and gets home around 6 or 7 pm; I'm self-employed and work at home. The house is generally on the sloppy side -- but we're in a perpetual state of construction/remodeling, and there's just no keeping up with the dog hair.

The cooking is done by whoever has the most energy at the end of the day. Sometimes that's both of us -- and sometimes it's neither, and we go out. Luckily there are no kids in the equation (and there won't be, knock on wood). Same with housekeeping -- although I must say I have relaxed my standards on how Mr. Scarlett does things, which is perhaps a good thing given my perfectionism. So now I don't care if all the dishes don't get done at once -- at least some of them are clean now. Although I wish he would give the stove and sink a wipedown when he's done.

We split the bills -- he pays some and I pay others, and there's no joint checking account. His income is roughly 1-1/2 times mine, so he pays about that share of the bills or perhaps a little more; OTOH, I tend to get paid in big chunks, so I often buy big-ticket items like appliances, furniture, and lumber. I also pay for most of our concert tickets and vacations.

He feeds and waters all our pets -- one house dog, two yard dogs, six outside cats, and two cockatiels. He says it's the farm boy in him -- he can't rest until the animals are taken care of.

I know men who are simply amazed that I cook, clean, and do laundry. These are generally older guys who had wives that stayed at home while they worked.

We use a Laundromat. Mr. Scarlett sorts the laundry (minus my hand wash, which is considerable and which I do myself) at home and usually I go along to help load the machines. He does the final determination of dryness -- he's more fussy and doesn't want his shirts fried. We learned this when we moved in together and it's been status quo ever since. I help fold.

Once when he was sorting dry clothes, and I was asking him what was OK to start folding, I noticed a late-20ish chick watching us as she did her wash, her mouth slightly agape. I think she was stunned that he was running the laundry show.

We both put the seat and the lid down to keep the dog out of there.

Mr. Scarlett was the youngest of seven children, and his three next-older siblings were sisters. He grew up surrounded by women, and he also saw his mother and all three sisters get shafted by jerks. Consequently, he truly understands us (mostly) and respects us. He's also kind to children, animals large and tiny, and old people.

Yes, ladies, I realize that I've got quite a catch. He's a prince!

[Spider Woman]

I would be interested in hearing from some people, if there are any at the SDMBs, who are currently in a relationship where both partners work full time, yet one of them ends up doing most of the housework while the other one relaxes. Is that mostly a Central Minnesota phenomenon?

Viewpoints from both sexes would be interesting to hear.

[tomndebb]

I am glad to hear that there is more sharing in the younger generation of relationships

What younger generation? We've been married seventeen years (and did not marry young) and I do most of the laundry, most of the dishes, vacuum the carpet, and cook several times a week. It's no big deal. My dad and mom were the typical he-works/she-stays-home couple of the 1950's, and dad always helped with the cooking or cleaning when mom needed the help.

I cannot remember even discussing "division of labor" or anything similar. One does what needs to be done.

We have had occasions where I was doing all the housework and child-tending, but since those occasions coincided with my wife suffering an emergency appendectomy, a detached retina, or multiple broken bones, I generally don't hold them against her. (My next wife may need to be a bit more durable, however.)

[BlackKnight]

Having never had a SO, I can't speak from direct experience. However, I've observed my parents for years and here's how things worked with them:

Mom would do most of the indoor chores. Dad would do all of the outdoor chores. Dad would nearly always do the cooking, which was a good thing (trust me on this). Both worked, although until a few years ago my mom only worked parttime, because my siblings and I were too young to care for ourselves. Mom quite often complained about the work she did, while my father rarely made a peep of protest, even when shouldering an unfair burden.

My dad was both capable and willing to do more around the house, but when he did something, mom would tell him he did it wrong and an argument ensued.

Not only that, my mom is extremely sexist in dividing up chores for me and my sibs. Boys mow lawn, girls do laundry, boys kill spider, girls go get boy to kill spider, etc.

HOPEFULLY, if (big if) I ever get a SO, she won't be much like my mother. And hopefully, I'll be a lot like my dad.

[Spider Woman]

Bless you, Tom, you sound like a gem. My parents also were that typical fifties couple, but when she became ill with cancer, he waited on her, and did all the housework, and took care of her at home in the final stages of her illness (with some support from hospice staff).

And my dad is also the one who showed me his special patent pending baby hold that always seemed to keep babies happy, so he must have done quite a lot of that even though he worked full time (and then some, he was a public school band director who brought work home at night and taught summer band also).

My ideal mate would be the one who pitches in with the work until it is done, and does not wait to be asked or told what to do. I suppose it also helps to have an agreed on state of cleanliness or tasks that need to be completed.

[Spider Woman]

kill spider

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[BlackKnight, do you kill spiders?][said Spider Woman, hi-jacking her own thread]

[BlackKnight]

Originally posted by Spider Woman
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[BlackKnight, do you kill spiders?][said Spider Woman, hi-jacking her own thread]

Only the non-cute ones. You have nothing to worry about.

[Saint Zero]

Where do you people find these idiots? and why do you put up with them?

My house, growing up. If it needed to be done, it got done. Usually by whomever happened to be standing nearest the mess. None of this "division of labor" bull. My Mom told you to hop, you made froglike noises and got to work. Both parents can Cook, and I am dang good myself. Both cleaned the kitchen. Outside work was mowing, mostly. And that was the kids job. Seeing as how all we had to do was run the mower over the front yard.

My house, now. Wife works. I tend kids. Jobs still get done. I do all cooking, as my wife is continually impressed by my talents. And I'm better.

[TroubleAgain]

Originally posted by Spider Woman
I would be interested in hearing from some people, if there are any at the SDMBs, who are currently in a relationship where both partners work full time, yet one of them ends up doing most of the housework while the other one relaxes. Is that mostly a Central Minnesota phenomenon?

Viewpoints from both sexes would be interesting to hear.

Female, 34, married 6+ years. He'll be 40 next week. Central Florida. We have issues with this. (I love my husband, wouldn't trade him for anything, but...) He wants the house clean, but doesn't want to do the cleaning. I do the cooking. I do the bill-paying. I do 90% of the laundry. I do ALL of the bathroom cleaning. He'll do the 10% of the laundry if I ask him to. He'll vacuum, but won't dust or pick up. He'll help with cleaning the kitchen, but only if I ask, or if I am feeling poorly (or he wants sex.) I take care of the pets (They're YOUR pets, it's your JOB to take care of them, he says, as he pets the cat in his lap and plays tug-of-war with the dog...)

Then when he does something? He announces it. "I cleaned the kitchen, honey." "I washed a load of towels, dear." What do you want, a freaking medal? Way I see it, we both work 40 hours a week, with me frequently working more. I earn about $3/hour more than him. Why the hell is it "helping me" with the few things he does, instead of him seeing it as doing what is his part as a responsible adult? Oh, sure, he mows once a week. But he doesn't do anything with MY truck, I take care of it myself (getting oil changes, washing, etc.) He doesn't garden or anything like that. So what the hell is his share of this?

Sorry for the rant, but this is a subject dear to my heart. He was raised by a 50's-type couple and is used to seeing men waited on hand-and-foot. He knows intellectually that isn't fair in our situation, but doesn't choose to do anything about it. I am amazed how a husband so loving, thoughtful and sweet in other ways can be so dense about this!!!

[MysterEcks]

Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, and they meet at Earth. This is kinda the same problem Belgium had with the French and Germans, if you think about it.

My ex-wife and I never had any problems with housework--we both cooked, and cleaned, and did laundry, etc. There were some differences--what I would cook was pretty simple, whereas she would cook more involved things, for example--but it was pretty much 50-50.

[Spider Woman]

TroubleAgain, I know what you mean. If you wanted to start WWIII, you could probably print out this thread and show it to him, but if you're somewhat happy, is it worth the effort? Sad when you think about it.

I wonder if any men like your husband will read this and post here, and actually admit to doing this.

MysterEcks, I knew there was some reason I liked you (besides your erudite and intelligent posts)!

I feel safer now, BlackKnight.

[Spider Woman]

Oh, and Saint Zero, I forgot to answer:

Where do you people find these idiots? and why do you put up with them?

Central Minnesota has lots of them.

I think that might be a good reason to live with someone before you marry him, because I actually talked about this to my first husband before we were married. He talked the talk but didn't walk the walk.

Maybe sometimes it comes down to the abuse of power thing: doing it because you know you can get away with it.

This was more the reason I divorced both of my husbands than the actual housework thing, there were other abuses of power. And it is a reason that I am very leery of ever marrying again.

[TroubleAgain]

Originally posted by Spider Woman
TroubleAgain, I know what you mean. If you wanted to start WWIII, you could probably print out this thread and show it to him, but if you're somewhat happy, is it worth the effort? Sad when you think about it.

Probably not, my arachnid friend. I love him incredibly and he loves me too. He is wonderful in just about every other way. I have written out a letter to him, detailing all of my feelings about this, because I don't fight or argue well. I get very upset and cry and can't express my logically thought out points. But I've never given it to him, because he always apologizes before I can do that and starts to do more around the house again, and I feel strange about giving him the letter. It lasts for a while, but....

The next step for us will be to rigidly define (on paper) a fairer division of labor. But I don't want to go there, because two caring, mature adults shouldn't have to do that.

[Spider Woman]

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This is sort of what I mean by an abuse of power, they do better for a while, but know that they will appease and eventually be able to slip back into the old ways. But maybe as the whole power structure changes, years down the line, younger women will not have to deal with this as much, especially if people like tatertot try to teach their sons different ways.


And it sounds like there are postitive aspects to your relationship which make up for this issue. In my previous relationships, there were not.

[doreen]

I would be interested in hearing from some people, if there are any at the SDMBs, who are currently in a relationship where both partners work full time, yet one of them ends up doing most of the housework while the other one relaxes. Is that mostly a Central Minnesota phenomenon?

Here's one. Why do I do most of the housework? Because my choices are nag,do it myself or leave it undone.I don't have particularly high housekeeping standards, but I don't want every dish we own to be piled up on the counter growing mold before any are washed.At some point, I get annoyed that we haven't got any clean dishes and load the dishwasher. He then comes home and says I didn't have to do it, he was going to do it tonight.I have to admit though, it didn't get like this until we had kids, who multiplied the housework and added some new chores ( supervising homework, driving to activities, etc).I suspect part of the reason is we seem to be living in a 1950's time warp, where most of the women we know either don't have jobs, only work part-time,or have a very different sort of job than I do.He compares himself to the other men he knows and says he does more housework etc. than they do ( which is true) Then I ask him if I can quit my job and work part-time as a cashier in Rite Aid like their wives do.I maintain that the proper comparison for him to make is not how much he does compared to the men he knows, but how much he does compared to me. Am I looking for a divorce? No, but if I ever do this will be a major reason

[Spider Woman]

I do have an s.o. with whom I now live. This arrangement came up faster than we thought it would, through a situation I won't go into here.

Sometimes I think I hurt his feelings by not taking everything he says on faith. My thought is that some of us women don't go so much by someone saying "I love you," as by the actions that show whether or not this is true, or if the person loves us in the way we wish to be loved.

Faith builds up through the years, not by someone just saying they love you, but by observing their actions and whether or not those actions match with what is said.

[lolagranola]

Well, Feynn accurately described our living situation. It's also similar to Scarlett67's except that you have to add four kids to the mix.

I honestly could not be with someone who felt that all of the housework was my job. I grew up believing in the equality of men and women. Whoever has more time does more housework. That can vary from day to day.

Incidently, when I do graduate and get a job, Feynn plans on dropping to part time work to stay at home more and take care of the house.

[Spider Woman]

lolagranola and Feynn, I am happy for you, and for the Scarletts, too. Thanks for sharing this; it brightens my day.

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[Salieri2]

from Spider Woman, once again, with feeling:

I would be interested in hearing from some people, if there are any at the SDMBs, who are currently in a relationship where both partners work full time, yet one of them ends up doing most of the housework while the other one relaxes. Is that mostly a Central Minnesota phenomenon?

Viewpoints from both sexes would be interesting to hear.

The fella I live with is quite neat, organized, hardworking and houseproud. He can and does clean like a demon. I, on the other hand, am a slob who must be prodded with a sharp stick [or run out of underwear] before getting off my butt to start a load of laundry. I do clean the bathrooms, which he hates, and do 95% of all cooking, because I can; however, I would estimate the division of labor to be 85% he vs 14% me [I give the dog 1% for picking up any food item .001 seconds after it hits the floor and sucking it down. She gets every molecule.] I can clean, and well, but I generally just don't. BUT...

...the likely difference between myself and my central Minnesota male slob counterparts is that I hate living like this and feel guilty as sin, and I bet they don't. I have absolutely no excuse for this, it is a ghastly flaw. I do make special efforts to clean when my SO's working late, stressed, ill, or otherwise needing less extraneous BS in his life, so that when he gets home at 10:45 he's not looking at a kitchen full of scummy pots. But I suck, I admit it, and I'm trying to change. In aid of which, I'd better go deal with the organisms in the sink. Oh, and I'm from the East Coast, he's from Chicago, and we live in the midwest. Me: raised by dish-doing Dad and bone-clean but untidy Mom, Him: single-mother.

[Medea's Child]

Here is where I rant. A lot. Ignore if needed.

I love my parents. My mom does international business manager stuff all of the time. She works twelve hour days five-six days a week more often than not. She works hard, because my dad refuses to get a job. Admittedly, its hard for him, he is one of those 'so smart society hurts' people. This would be fine if he would have the human decency to parent the kids. However, parenting is not something he understands. He doesn't see it as a giving relationship, he sees it as a getting relationship. "What do kids do for me?" He won't clean. His version of cleaning is to scream at the kids until they run and hide, sulk until mom gets home, and explain what horrible brats 'her' kids are.

I want him gone. I want him gone, gone, gone, gone, gone. I don't know what my mom would do with my sisters, but it has to be better than what he would. I could take one of them, if it comes to that.

Growl. "Division of labor"

My goal for a future relationship is division of labor by who has the most time and ability. (I hate doing dishes, but I like cooking and laundry. Dead spiders earn blow jobs.) Tho I like doing almost any chore with someone.

Sorry for the rant. Its a touchy issue. My mom is a wonderful person and deserves so much better than what she has done with her life.

[tatertot]

I'm wondering if there are any other stay at home parents that are going through the same things as I am. I don't think MisterTot understands what I go through during my day, and he feels the same, vice versa. I'm not your typical fifties wifey, either...things are so different now. 3 or 4 days a week, I'm doing volunteer work, the kidlet only goes to school for 3 hours a day right now...it's not like when I was a child and my mother could let me run out and play while she got things done. I'd be arrested! I'm not complaining that my job is terribly hard - it's just that frankly, I'm not in the home as much as he thinks and don't have the time that he thinks I do. I wish Ophrah would come and do one of those "switch jobs for a weeks" things for our family...might open both of our eyes.

This might not be related, but I'm wondering if the fact that we got married so young and had a baby right away (two weeks after the wedding, matter of fact) has some bearing on this. A lot of our peers just can't understand that I do indeed like being home, and that the small bit of money I could earn by taking a regular job is just not worth it to us. I'm wondering if we had other couples our age going through the same struggles, if it would help us.

[BlackKnight]

I just wanted to say that I would love to be a "house-husband" and cook and clean while my hypothetical future wife works fulltime to support us.

Unfortunately, I really doubt that will ever happen.

Any other guys feel the same?

[Medea's Child]

It can happen, BlackKnight. Very easily, I know several girls, myself included, who would enjoy such a set up. Look carefully at what you really want though. House-dad is rough stuff. I had one. It is a lot of work. And your kids will not like you if you screw it up. (You can fire your dad. Trust me.) The same is for house-moming but society is more gentle with it.

The housewife deal makes me ill. I could go for working part time at something little and fun. I will always have a job though. None of this, "What are you doing with my money?" crap.

[Angkins]

I would like to speak on behalf of the men out there that DO housework!

My hubby does most of the housework. He vaccums, does dishes, cleans the dreaded bathroom and does the laundry. He cooks when I am not home to do it, which is often as I have a very demanding job the requires alot of time, and if he didn't he would have to go to work hungry (he works 6pm-2am).
On my days off I usually do the housework, but he still does laundry. I turn things funny colours and are no longer allowed to do laundry! (Whick is fine by me!)

We share the yard work. He does do the stuff that is harder to do like digging. I take care of the flower beds and stuff like that.

If something needs to be fixed, that is his job......makes him feel like Tim Allen or something!!

If it is something I want done in the house,like painting, I do that myself.....he just gets in the way

[Biggirl]

Actual arguement, verbatim:
Biggirl: What are you talking about? If I don't do it, it doesn't get done!

Houseman: Whaddya mean? This place is an absoulute pig sty!

Biggirl: Yeah, because I don't do it!

When my children were born I stayed home for 2 years. I was at home and I did the housework. It just made sense. When I went back to full time work, the housework just went by the wayside. Now whoever can't stand the mess any longer, cleans it.

[BlackKnight]

Originally posted by Medea's Child
Look carefully at what you really want though. House-dad is rough stuff.

Obviously I'm still thinking about such things, and don't have a set-in-stone decision on what I want yet. Heck, I'm only 19.

I want to clarify that I said house-husband, not house-dad. I don't want kids, or at least no more than one of them at the most. I think house-dad would be much more difficult than just house-husband.

But even if I had two or three little buggers to take care of, that appeals to me more than getting a job and working for a living.

Oh, and Medea's Child, which girls are those?? C'mon, cough up some names and numbers!

[Spider Woman]

Salieri2, your reply is the closest one to a viewpoint from the "other side," although you are female, and as you say, you feel guilty about it. And you are aware that it is a flaw and are working to change it.

tater, at one time I really wanted to be a stay-at-home mom. Once my first ex actually suggested that, but we were already in financial sress, and I didn't trust him enough to do that (a mistrust that was eventually justified). I admired and envied those of my friends who stayed at home with their children, and, like you, they did volunteer work too.

BlackKnight, I agree with Medea's Child that you may not know what you are getting yourself into. Very few young people realize all the work involved in running a household and keeping it clean and/or functional.

Biggirl, I like your attitude. Angkins, you and your hubby are among the lucky ones.

I am still wondering if any of the guys who don't help with the housework will post here and give their take as to why they don't.

[tatertot]

But even if I had two or three little buggers to take care of, that appeals to me more than getting a job and working for a living

[BlackKnight]

Originally posted by Spider Woman
BlackKnight, I agree with Medea's Child that you may not know what you are getting yourself into. Very few young people realize all the work involved in running a household and keeping it clean and/or functional.

I'm sorry, but I just have to ask this:
If I were female, and had said that I found the idea of getting a job and working for a living more appealing than being a house-spouse, would you have responded with "You may not realize what you are getting yourself into. Very few young people realize all the work involved in having a career"?

I'm sorry if I sound defensive and/or uptight, but these sorts of things bother me significantly.

[TroubleAgain]

Originally posted by Spider Woman
////TroubleAgain\\\\

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(snip)
And it sounds like there are postitive aspects to your relationship which make up for this issue. In my previous relationships, there were not.

Thanks for the Spidey hugs. And yes, this is really about the only negative aspect to our marriage. Pretty much everything else is wonderful.

[The Asbestos Mango]

Originally posted by BlackKnight
I just wanted to say that I would love to be a "house-husband" and cook and clean while my hypothetical future wife works fulltime to support us.

Unfortunately, I really doubt that will ever happen.

Any other guys feel the same?

BlackKnight, will you marry me?

[MysterEcks]

Spider Woman said:

MysterEcks, I knew there was some reason I liked you (besides your erudite and intelligent posts)!

(There goes what passes for mymodesty for the week.)

I'm going to make a WAG that the older the guy in question, the less likely he is to do his share of the housework. (I'm aware this is a big overgeneralization, so do not send me outraged mail.) I think I'm probably on the cusp--I was born in 1963, when the stereotypical roles were still the norm, but I came of age in the early '80s, by which time the norms were well on their way to changing.

[Girl Hermit]

When my husband and I got married we wrote out our own vows and although we did not read them in front of the guests, we read them to each other in private.
Parts of his were:
"I, John, promise to carry all the heavy things, put away and take down all the stuff off high shelves, be both the bug killer and the squished bug cleaner-upper, to provide leg and back rubs without even mentioning sex, or at least try to, to wait patiently in the car, outside dressing rooms and on mall benches while you decide which is the perfect one out of those 7 identical white shirts. I promise to at least look away from the TV when asked "does this match" and to try to remember what colors go with what if not why, to take the garbage out because its smelly and to do any job that involves removing oil from under your fingernails afterwards."
Parts of mine were:
"I, Jennifer, promise to cook meals that are edible if not elegant, to clean the house just enough as to not have to flip the lights off and hide if company drops by, to not nag you about eating vegetables even if I really really really think you are going to drop dead one day if you don't eat...never mind, to tell you when that mystery light blinks on the dashboard for a week and to especially tell you when it stops blinking and stays on solid, to wait patiently in the car and on mall benches while you decide which is the perfect one out of those 7 identical computer games and to every once in awhile respond to sexual advances resulting from back rubs or leg rubs being given to me."

So far, its working.

It may be "old fashioned" in that we both think there are "boy jobs" and "girl jobs" in a partnership but it works for us. It is also not set in stone. He, for example, does all the laundry in the house because I hate doing it. I do all the garbage that needs to be recycled because the difference in plastics eludes him.
As our relationship evolves and changes so do the "rules" and the household jobs. What works today may not work next year and so while we both think there are jobs that fall into a certain persons area of responsibility that does not mean that person is the best able to do that job.