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  #1  
Old 12-29-2006, 08:13 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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OK. Can we agree that it isn't a "lifestyle choice" now?

Another evangelical minister bites the dust. Any chance he's going to get his parishoners to realize that homosexuality is not a "lifestyle choice"? I doubt it...

Quote:
Second Colorado evangelical resigns over gay sex

...Barnes told his congregation in a videotaped message on Sunday he had "struggled with homosexuality since he was five years old."
Five years old. You don't "choose" your sexuality at 5 years old, folks!

Come on people... The evidence is right there before your eyes!!
  #2  
Old 12-29-2006, 08:17 PM
Valgard Valgard is offline
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Oh I can just see the reaction:

"ANOTHER person who consciously made a Bad Moral Decision at age 5! We'd better redouble our efforts to clamp down on them!"
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:23 PM
xenophon41 xenophon41 is offline
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I wish having the evidence hit home like that were all it took, John, but I don't reckon more than a few of those parishioners will have their minds -or hearts- changed by this. I think even if they accept that homosexuality isn't a choice, they'll still think "homosexual behavior" can and should be avoided by the righteous. Until we see practicing evangelical leaders come out of the closet without apology for their "sins", nothing will change. (And wouldn't it be refreshing to see one of these guys come out on Sunday morning and say "I've been your shepherd for 20 years, I'm so grateful and proud of all of you, and now please meet my life-partner Bill.")
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:24 PM
silenus silenus is offline
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I blame fluoridated water.
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:25 PM
WhyNot WhyNot is offline
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Just to be the Advocate of the Other Guy for a moment:

"Struggling" with something from a young age doesn't mean it's not a trial or test set up by God. God (in their paradigm) made some people with no legs, and some with no brains (obvious examples seem to be coming out of the woodwork these days!) and some with high libidos and ugly faces who can't convince anyone to marry them, and some who are gay and can't marry the person they'd like to. In all of these cases, these are tests of faith. Those who can't follow God's rules, despite the hurdles He's set up for them, don't win the game. God's rules include loving him even if he made you without legs, not having sex outside of marriage, and not marrying if you're a homosexual. If you can't follow the rules and still have faith in God, you lose.

I personally think it's stupid as all get out, but I see the logic in their system. It's a large part of why I don't follow their system.
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:26 PM
Miller Miller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silenus
I blame fluoridated water.
Turns out it wasn't the Communists who wanted our precious bodily fluids, after all.
  #7  
Old 12-29-2006, 08:26 PM
hajario hajario is offline
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My personal opinion is that sexuality is not a lifestyle choice. I also don't think that it matters if it is or not. I've heard people say that it's a "lifestyle choice" and that it's "unnatural." Let's agree for the sake of argument that it's both. Why the fuck should you, I, Pat Robertson or the U.S. Government give two shits if someone wants to be unnatural in their own home? Who is being harmed?

I feel sorry for Rev. Barnes. Nothing in the article says that he said anything about lifestyle choices though he was anti-gay marriage. The poor guy felt that he had to "struggle" against something that shouldn't matter. Founding a 2000+ member evangelical church is some serious overcompensation. Hopefully he will accept who he is.
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:28 PM
Revtim Revtim is offline
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No doubt it was the influence of the liberal children's shows on liberal public television that made this 5-year-old make this choice.
  #9  
Old 12-29-2006, 08:40 PM
Random Random is offline
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Originally Posted by Revtim
No doubt it was the influence of the liberal children's shows on liberal public television that made this 5-year-old make this choice.

Bert and Ernie have much to answer for.
  #10  
Old 12-29-2006, 08:43 PM
samclem samclem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revtim
No doubt it was the influence of the liberal children's shows on liberal public television that made this 5-year-old make this choice.
Since the preacher was five years old in 1957, and PBS isn't quite that old, that one won't fly.

Back to fluoride.
  #11  
Old 12-29-2006, 08:50 PM
The King of Soup The King of Soup is offline
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Well said, John Mace: one's sexuality is not a lifestyle choice, and it's not an issue of morality or mental health or fashion, either. You are absolutely right about that, and it couldn't have been said better.

But anyone who thinks his (Barnes's) parishoners are going to suddenly drop the prejudices they've been cultivating for decades, probably with his loud encouragement, needs to read more carefully: by claiming that "he has struggled with homosexuality since he was five years old," he is not making the issue more human and accessible; he's just reinforcing the idea that homosexuality is some kind of birth defect, an aberration that his congregants can reassure themselves won't happen to truly good people.

It would be healthy and clarifying for a formally gay-bashing clergyman to admit he was wrong, not merely to continue to pander to his flock's bigotry by saying that he has sinned. That merely knocks down one figurehead without touching the foundation of sand on which the next one is sure to be built.

It would be nice if this kind of hypocrisy actually worked against its premises, but in this case every half-renunciation seems merely to feed the lies. Each new example of "sin" serves not to educate the faithful that the acts they deplore are normal, but rather to frighten them with a new bogey ever increasing in size.
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:51 PM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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You get to choose what you want to eat, you get to choose what you like to wear. You don't get to choose what makes you horny.
  #13  
Old 12-29-2006, 08:57 PM
JustAnotherGeek JustAnotherGeek is offline
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I think this is the interesting part:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Same Article
Barnes was confronted by an associate pastor of the church who received an anonymous phone call from a person who heard someone was threatening to go public with the names of Barnes and other evangelical leaders who engaged in homosexual behavior, Ames said.
1st: How many levels of hearsay are in that statement? I lost count. (It's doesn't make it any less true, boy, talk about foafoafoaf)

2nd: Should we be expecting a spate of admissions in the near future? Or a tell-all book / movie / tv show?
  #14  
Old 12-29-2006, 09:00 PM
The Flying Dutchman The Flying Dutchman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
Since the preacher was five years old in 1957, and PBS isn't quite that old, that one won't fly.

Back to fluoride.
Well I've been masturbating since at least 1954 before our water was flouridated.
  #15  
Old 12-29-2006, 09:03 PM
NJ_Kef NJ_Kef is offline
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On the other hand, if a straight guy says succumbing to homosexual encounters is a choice, maybe he is telling us more about himself than we are ready to acknowledge. Maybe some straight boys actually see this as a decision. They are men too.

“Damn, I’m horny! Aiiight, yah, suck my dick! Oh, yahhh, that feels good. Yahhh, suck it like dat!”
  #16  
Old 12-29-2006, 09:04 PM
Sevastopol Sevastopol is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace
Another evangelical minister bites the dust. Any chance he's going to get his parishoners to realize that homosexuality is not a "lifestyle choice"? I doubt it...

Five years old. You don't "choose" your sexuality at 5 years old, folks!

Come on people... The evidence is right there before your eyes!!

(my emphasis)
You lose them right there.
  #17  
Old 12-29-2006, 09:13 PM
Annie Annie is offline
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Deny, deny, deny......
  #18  
Old 12-29-2006, 09:21 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The King of Soup
Well said, John Mace: one's sexuality is not a lifestyle choice, and it's not an issue of morality or mental health or fashion, either. You are absolutely right about that, and it couldn't have been said better.

But anyone who thinks his (Barnes's) parishoners are going to suddenly drop the prejudices they've been cultivating for decades, probably with his loud encouragement, needs to read more carefully: by claiming that "he has struggled with homosexuality since he was five years old," he is not making the issue more human and accessible; he's just reinforcing the idea that homosexuality is some kind of birth defect, an aberration that his congregants can reassure themselves won't happen to truly good people.
I don't think the parishoners are going to change (hence the "I doubit it" in the OP), which is why I openned this up in the Pit instead of GD. Sorry if that wasn't clear. And there wouldn't be any real debate on this MB anyway-- are there even 3 regular posters in GD who think homosexuality is "lifestyle choice"? I don't think so... there haven't been for awhile anyway.
  #19  
Old 12-29-2006, 09:24 PM
auntie em auntie em is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random
Bert and Ernie have much to answer for.
I blame Free To Be You And Me. I mean, isn't it obvious?
  #20  
Old 12-29-2006, 09:37 PM
Biggirl Biggirl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auntie em
I blame Free To Be You And Me. I mean, isn't it obvious?
Or the fundamentalist version called Be Ashamed of Yourself and Hide. It starred J Edgar Hoover and Roy Cohn.
  #21  
Old 12-29-2006, 10:23 PM
if6was9 if6was9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random
Bert and Ernie have much to answer for.
You're right. It should be Bert and Mary.


But then that might imply they might have ::looks around:: s-e-x



So maybe Pat and Pat.....




I'm so confused
  #22  
Old 12-29-2006, 10:57 PM
t-bonham@scc.net t-bonham@scc.net is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auntie em
I blame Free To Be You And Me. I mean, isn't it obvious?
Nope, still not possible.

That album was released in 1972. As Samclem pointed out, Rev. Barnes claims he has 'suffered' since 1957.
  #23  
Old 12-29-2006, 11:10 PM
xenophon41 xenophon41 is offline
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Then that little bastard Howdy Doody must've had something to do with it. (I always thought he was a little too cozy with that Dilly Dally dude.)
  #24  
Old 12-29-2006, 11:14 PM
The King of Soup The King of Soup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace
I don't think the parishoners are going to change ....Sorry if that wasn't clear....
Perfectly clear from the beginning, and sorry if I implied that I had any idea that you thought otherwise. I was merely trying to underscore the point that even when the truth is plain to see, a comforting lie will still be embraced.
  #25  
Old 12-29-2006, 11:19 PM
Shagnasty Shagnasty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random
Bert and Ernie have much to answer for.
I was thinking that the Teletubbies weren't even around back then but you are right, the liberal media has always made sure there was some prominent gay icons for youngsters. None of the muppets ever did much for me sexually as a child however.

I was more focused on scenes like this which definitely shaped my sexuality.
  #26  
Old 12-30-2006, 12:05 AM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shagnasty
I was more focused on scenes like this which definitely shaped my sexuality.
You mean the one with the headband, second from the left. Perv!!!
  #27  
Old 12-30-2006, 12:24 AM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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Alright, alright! Annette Funicello! Happy now! Gawd, I feel so dirty....
  #28  
Old 12-30-2006, 12:58 AM
Rick Rick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
Since the preacher was five years old in 1957, and PBS isn't quite that old, that one won't fly.

Back to fluoride.
I blame The Adventures of Rin Tin Tin. That young boy, all alone at that fort with all of those big strong soldiers.
Enough to warp a young boys mind I tell you.
  #29  
Old 12-30-2006, 01:06 AM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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I blame gay marri-oh wait. That won't work, will it?

Okay, I blame Canada. And Paris Hilton.
  #30  
Old 12-30-2006, 01:24 AM
OttoDaFe OttoDaFe is offline
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Isn't it obvious? The lib'ruls are so evil, so pernicious, so full of hatred toward everything clean&decent&holy&american that their pomps and their works corrupted this fine young man decades before hitting the airwaves!

Smite them! Smite their hirelings! In the name of God destroy them all!
  #31  
Old 12-30-2006, 04:15 AM
Rysdad Rysdad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace
Another evangelical minister bites the dust.
And that ain't all...

Quote:
Come on people... The evidence is right there before your eyes!!
Yep. Being an evangelical minister causes homosexuality!
  #32  
Old 12-30-2006, 04:40 AM
Tuckerfan Tuckerfan is offline
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The real answer is that time travelling homos from the future have come to our time to zap prominent religious figures with a Gayification RayTM in order to ensure an All Queer FutureTM.

Seriously, though, on Fresh Aire Terry Gross (Mistress of the Softball QuestionTM) asked a minister who was friends with Ted "I'm the carpenter that Christ nailed!" Haggard if it wasn't possible that being gay was something that a person with? He fumbled around and said that there was simply no way he could concieve of that being possible (let alone the actual matter).

Whatever consenting adults choose to do to one another in the privacy of their own home should be their own business (unless, of course, they videotape it and post it on the web! ).
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  #33  
Old 12-30-2006, 05:33 AM
don't ask don't ask is offline
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I'm pretty sure I'm not a homophobe but I have to ask, does anyone think that the statement: he had "struggled with homosexuality since he was five years old," has any credence at all?

On what did he base that - the fact that at age 5 all his playmates were boys and he thought that girls were yucky?
  #34  
Old 12-30-2006, 07:06 AM
MEBuckner MEBuckner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by don't ask
I'm pretty sure I'm not a homophobe but I have to ask, does anyone think that the statement: he had "struggled with homosexuality since he was five years old," has any credence at all?

On what did he base that - the fact that at age 5 all his playmates were boys and he thought that girls were yucky?
I remember having a crush on this one little girl when I was in kindergarten. I don't think I ever had any notion of doing anything with or to her beyond kissing her, but it was definitely a "romantic" sort of attraction. And I don't think I ever really thought girls were "yucky", although there were times when I may have felt socially compelled to pretend as though as I did.
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  #35  
Old 12-30-2006, 07:33 AM
Dijon Warlock Dijon Warlock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I blame The Adventures of Rin Tin Tin. That young boy, all alone at that fort with all of those big strong soldiers.
Enough to warp a young boys mind I tell you.
Surely you mean Tintin.

His best friend was a dog. All of his other associates were males.

Go figure.
  #36  
Old 12-30-2006, 07:53 AM
Princhester Princhester is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAnotherGeek
1st: How many levels of hearsay are in that statement? I lost count. (It's doesn't make it any less true, boy, talk about foafoafoaf)

2nd: Should we be expecting a spate of admissions in the near future? Or a tell-all book / movie / tv show?
It would be quite funny to contact every single anti-gay campaigner in the US with such a call, and see how leap out of the closet before they are pushed out by revelations that aren't actually about to be made. Actually, I guess you'd cause a lot of stress and bother to those who are not gay so that wouldn't be fair. In fact do not do this. But you have to admit it's kind of funny to think about.
  #37  
Old 12-30-2006, 08:17 AM
matt_mcl matt_mcl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princhester
It would be quite funny to contact every single anti-gay campaigner in the US with such a call, and see how leap out of the closet before they are pushed out by revelations that aren't actually about to be made. Actually, I guess you'd cause a lot of stress and bother to those who are not gay so that wouldn't be fair. In fact do not do this. But you have to admit it's kind of funny to think about.
I was just telling Hamish that we should telephone all of the creepy megachurches and say, "I know Reverend ---- did you-know-what with you-know-who you-know-when" and see what proportion of them resigned.

Much as when, as a joke, Oscar Wilde sent telegrams to a random selection of ten London noblemen, saying "All is discovered - fly at once!" Apparently, all ten immediately departed for the Continent.
  #38  
Old 12-30-2006, 08:31 AM
MrDibble MrDibble is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dijon Warlock
Surely you mean Tintin.

His best friend was a dog. All of his other associates were males.
Naah, all the men had the hots for Mme. Castafiore
  #39  
Old 12-30-2006, 09:43 AM
Canadjun Canadjun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shagnasty
I was thinking that the Teletubbies weren't even around back then but you are right, the liberal media has always made sure there was some prominent gay icons for youngsters. None of the muppets ever did much for me sexually as a child however.
If we're talking about 1957, we're in Mickey Mouse Club territory, if I'm not mistaken.

Hey there! Hi There! Ho There!
You're as welcome as can be!
M-I-C
K-E-Y
M-O-U-S-E!
...
...
Through the years we'll all be friends,
wherever we may be...
M-I-C (See you real soon!)
K-E-Y (Why? Because we like you!)
M-O-U-S-E!


That probably did it to him.

Boy do I feel old after typing that!
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Old 12-30-2006, 09:54 AM
Epimetheus Epimetheus is offline
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I don't believe homosexuality is a "lifestyle choice" but I have serious doubts about anybody that "remembers" being gay at 5 years old. Human memory is pretty bad about remembering things last week with any degree of precision, when it gets to decades, I think there is some confabulation going on.

Seriously though, even if we grant that this guy's memory is great enough to remember something like that. What 5 year old thinks about sex? At 5 I didn't even like girls (I'm straight). Hell, at 8 I thought they were gross and had cooties. What 5 year old not only misses that stage, but jumps right to - mmm, little Timmy is cute, I think I would like to cuddle with him.

Seriously.
  #41  
Old 12-30-2006, 10:13 AM
Shagnasty Shagnasty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epimetheus
I don't believe homosexuality is a "lifestyle choice" but I have serious doubts about anybody that "remembers" being gay at 5 years old. Human memory is pretty bad about remembering things last week with any degree of precision, when it gets to decades, I think there is some confabulation going on.
I can't answer to the gay part but I had crushes with sexual overtones with Linda Carter and Barbi Benton when I was 4 or so. People thought that I might be a little fem for having a whole collection if Wonder Woman dollars and clothes to go with them but it was just the opposite. I could dress and undress those dolls to my hearts content. I also starting seeking out soft-core porn which was really hard to find when I got get it.

I even had sexual dreams about several woman even though they were all rather confused and often dirtier than the real thing would be. The girls in my kindergarten did nothing for me but I had a very strong eye on one teacher as well to the point in which I would flub up anything I needed to say to her.

Does anyone else have those experiences? I can easily imagine someone realizing that they always really liked men from a very young age.
  #42  
Old 12-30-2006, 10:21 AM
Epimetheus Epimetheus is offline
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Hmm, not to doubt your memories, but do you have photos and several close relatives that also confirm your memories? And aren't you a Pysche graduate (PhD?), don't they teach you in beginning psychology about how unreliable memory is?
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Old 12-30-2006, 10:23 AM
xenophon41 xenophon41 is offline
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...having a whole collection if Wonder Woman dollars...
I am intrigued by the existence of a DC Comics economy. How does the exchange work? Will Marvel Money® work on a 1 to 1 ratio? 'Cause I still got some Spideybucks in my wallet...

  #44  
Old 12-30-2006, 10:27 AM
black rabbit black rabbit is offline
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Well I've been masturbating since at least 1954 before our water was flouridated.
That's impressive. I stopped in 1963 - I ran out of lotion, and had to go buy some more.
  #45  
Old 12-30-2006, 10:57 AM
monstro monstro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epimetheus
I don't believe homosexuality is a "lifestyle choice" but I have serious doubts about anybody that "remembers" being gay at 5 years old. Human memory is pretty bad about remembering things last week with any degree of precision, when it gets to decades, I think there is some confabulation going on.

Seriously though, even if we grant that this guy's memory is great enough to remember something like that. What 5 year old thinks about sex? At 5 I didn't even like girls (I'm straight). Hell, at 8 I thought they were gross and had cooties. What 5 year old not only misses that stage, but jumps right to - mmm, little Timmy is cute, I think I would like to cuddle with him.

Seriously.
Seriously, don't you think you're generalizing a little too much from your experiences? I have no doubt that there are asexual five-year-olds running around. But I know I was playing doctor around that age, and I know I wasn't alone. Kids masterbate at that age (maybe not to orgasm, but they know the power of the "touch") and are interested in other kids' genitalia. I also know that crushes don't always have to be physical, or at least in the "let's get naked" way. When I was in grammar school, kids were branching out into couples as early as the first grade. I think they were more "make-believe" relationships than anything else, but it indicates that not all boys at that age think girls have cooties (or vice versa). Some players and playettes start young.

(I don't know about you, but I remember a lot from the time I was five. Memories of my fourth year are vague, but I have rich mental pictures of my life as a snaggle-toothed kindegartener.)

It may be that the Reverand exaggerated when he said the "struggle" began at five. Maybe he began having homosexual feelings at five, but that doesn't mean he was 1) aware he was having them at the time and 2) aware that these feelings were supposedly bad and shameful. I can't imagine a five-year-old being indoctrinated with "GAY BAD!!!" in Sunday School class. They usually save that shit until you're a teenager. So maybe the actual internal conflict started later in life, but he can trace the genesis of his homosexuality to his five-year-old self. Sounds reasonable to me.
  #46  
Old 12-30-2006, 11:09 AM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenophon41
I wish having the evidence hit home like that were all it took, John, but I don't reckon more than a few of those parishioners will have their minds -or hearts- changed by this. I think even if they accept that homosexuality isn't a choice, they'll still think "homosexual behavior" can and should be avoided by the righteous. *snip*
Just to play devil's advocate here there is a consistent and non-hypocritical position that can be carved out here.

1. Homosexuality is not a choice. It's inbred and therefore not a sin.
2. Marriage is meant to occur between man/woman pair bonds.
3. Sexual activity outside of the bonds of marriage is a sin.
4. Homosexual sexual activity, since it cannot occur within marriage bonds is, by definition, sinful.
5. Those born homosexual are still capable of salvation/grace/what-have-you provided they avoid sexual activities outside of marriage just like all straight non-married persons

I wouldn't agree with someone who makes this argument but I don't think I could label them hypocrite.
  #47  
Old 12-30-2006, 11:10 AM
kung fu lola kung fu lola is offline
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It's common to hear queer people saying "I've always felt different". I know I did. I remember that it was always part of my worldview that there was something about me that didn't "fit in".

Memories aren't just collections of facts like colours, places, and dates. If someone reaches back as far as they can in their mind and says that they have always carried a feeling with them, I believe them.
  #48  
Old 12-30-2006, 11:10 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by black rabbit
That's impressive. I stopped in 1963.
For twenty minutes?
  #49  
Old 12-30-2006, 11:16 AM
WhyNot WhyNot is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sweet Home Chicago
Posts: 33,496
I was terribly, horribly in looooove with Matt Bennett in kindergarten. Truly, madly, deeply in love. I knew I wanted to kiss him and hold his hand and make him smile, because when he was happy it made me feel good, and I liked him in some strange way that I didn't fully understand, but felt like Mommy and Daddy's "like". When I'd think about him at home, I got a physical arousal response and would masturbate (yes, witnessed by my mother on at least one embarrassing occasion!)

Now that I'm older, I can assure you that it was just as much "love" as what I felt at 10, or 15 or 25. There is simply no evolutionary advantage I can think of to creating kids without romantic feelings, and lots of advantage in evolving to have sexual feelings even before procreation is possible, for social bonding and relationship practice(not to mention pregnancy early and often).

Anyone who says (all) kids are asexual at age 5 hasn't been around or studied many kids, and has probably been reading too many Victorian novels of cherubic youngsters with coal dust on their cheeks.

I'd google up some cites, but frankly I'm not sure how to google for information on children's sexual development without getting a whole bunch of disgusting kiddy diddler sites.
  #50  
Old 12-30-2006, 11:22 AM
Shagnasty Shagnasty is offline
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Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 27,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epimetheus
Hmm, not to doubt your memories, but do you have photos and several close relatives that also confirm your memories? And aren't you a Pysche graduate (PhD?), don't they teach you in beginning psychology about how unreliable memory is?
These weren't just memories and they were obvious and confirmed by everyone to this day. There was a lot of memorary baggage invested in what was goig on within the family when it was going on . I was absessed with dark haired, blue-eyed girlfriends

I did go to psyche gradute school but this is a branch of memory that continues to this day.
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