Atomic debate: bombing Japan

The USA is the only country in the world to have dropped atomic bombs upon an enemy. Why did the USA drop atomic bombs on Japan? The country was going to surrender anyway thanks to the traditional bombing from the US Air force (or so some would say), was it to scare the Russians? Revenge for Pearl Harbor? Quick victory? what does the SDMB feel? I love a good debate. Ill start us off:

The USA used nuclear weapons on Japan simply to end the war quickly without more American casualties, no other reason.

Certainly worthwhile.

It is argued by some that the Japanese did not surrender due to the atomic bombs, but because the Soviet Union declared war afterwards.

Start here:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=127388

I’m not trying to be a dick. We’ve just done the atomic bomb thing here a few times.

The Japanese got off lightly. I’ve seen plans that called for the bombing of 50 cities a la Dresden. The entire country could have been turned into a cinder, non-nuclearly.

Myself, I don’t buy the notion that they surrendered just because the Soviets entered the fray against them.

my easy answer, they wanted to test the bomb on an actual city to see what kind of damage it could do. But that’s my completely uneducated WAG.

Thanks for the info Ogre, threads a bit redundant now though :-D. And dont worry I don’t think your a dick

Which is why they did it twice. The Japanese were all ready to quit but we were not ready to let them.

The bomb cost $2 Billion dollars (back when $2 billion dollars was a lot of money!) why spend so much on something without using it?

This was largely what was done before Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Most large industrial cities in Japan had been reduced by conventional firebombing, to which the tightly packed wooden buildings of Japanese cities were especially vulnerable to.

Indeed it was necessary to tell the airforce not to bomb-out the few remaining cities so that their would be a good target left for the atomic bombs when they were ready to go.

That’s not quite the way I heard it.

Neither do I, but it would sure be the last nail in the coffin.
Re: Tushima Strait: Payback sucks. :slight_smile:

At the time of the nuclear bombings, Japanese leaders were still trumpeting about sacrificing the remaining civilian and military population to defend the country’s honor. Preparations were well underway to resist the massive invasion of the home islands that was expected. This was in spite of firebombings that had destroyed much of Tokyo and other targets, and the huge casualties suffered in defending various Pacific outposts long after it should have been obvious that the campaign could not be won.

The bold talk continued among the Japanese military even after the Hiroshima bombing. Three days later Nagasaki was bombed. It took five more days for the Japanese to surrender.

It’s highly debatable whether the Japanese had shown they were “ready to quit” after Hiroshima.
Remember, the decision-makers were the same military and political geniuses who figured that America would sue for peace after Pearl Harbor.

If it had been up to me I would not have tested the atomic bomb on a civilian population. Based on events at the time, it’s easy to see how much higher Japanese (and American) casualties likely would have been sustained without the use of nuclear bombs.

No way Japan would have surrendered had the US gone ahead with a land invasion. The US (rightly) believed that Japan would fight to the very last man.

The only problem is that by 1945, there was literally nothing left for the people back home on the mainland to fight with. Nearly every scrap of metal had been confiscated from all but the rich. People on the mainland would have been fighting with bamboo brooms and sticks - literally. I have first-hand stories - my ex gf’s grandfather told me about his experiences in the war. He was one of only two or three survivors (or was he the lone survivor? Can’t remember) of his company to make it back from a campaign in the Philippines. He was wounded, and got discharged. He talked about having to steal food from local homes in the Philippines the last few weeks. How he came back to Japan, only to find conditions actually worse.

And, my fiance’s grandfather is 93 years old, as a native Korean he was brought to Japan to work (i.e., slave labor) in the 1930s. As near as we can make out, he was being trained to fight by his army leaders - who were getting younger and younger - in 1944. They were issued guns, but didn’t have any bullets. So there was no actualy target practice. Training consisted of lying down on the ground, pointing your gun at a target, pulling the trigger, and saying ‘Pow!’.

Had the US government fully understood just how easily they could have taken the mainland with minimal casualties on both sides, they may well have re-thought the bomb. Hindsight’s 20-20, obviously - and after the ferocious battles fought in islands across the Pacific, the US stance is understandable.

I’ve worked in Japan on and off for the better part of 20 years. Every Japanese to a person that I’ve talked to about this issue plays up the ‘Japan as a victim of WWII’ because of the bomb - as one observer noted, 'we see what the world did to Japan, we don’t see so much what Japan did to the world.

But each person I’ve talked to also acknowledges that Japan would have in fact fought - if you can call people armed with bamboo rakes ‘fighting’ - to the man. Removing the Emperor would likely have caused riots. A friend of mine noted that they no longer let their grandfather go to see live sumo anymore, because on occasion the Emperor or someone from the royal family shows up, and it’s an embarrasing scene with the grandfather bowing and banzai-ing and so forth the entire time.

Nagasaki is hard to ‘defend’, as it were. The government knew that three days wasn’t near enough time for the Japanese government to fully comprehend what had happened. Survivors in Hiroshima didn’t fully understand for many, many days that the damage they were seeing was spread across the entire city, not just their local neighborhoods. Japan’s domestic infrastructure was already pretty much in shambles, the Hiroshima bomb made it all but impossible for information to get in or out of the city. Had the government had a bit more time, Nagasaki was likely un-necessary. Here, I do believe it is the case of the US government being influenced by its desire to ‘try out’ a second, different type of bomb from the one that was dropped on Hiroshima.

I’ve always wondered if the US military couldn’t have invited some Japanese diplomats to watch while they obliterated some tiny un-inhabited island, and let the diplomats take the message home. Some Japanese people I’ve talked to suggested that it wouldn’t have made any difference; the Japanese military would have preferred being wiped out to the ‘shame’ of ‘defeat’.

I’ve also long wondered if the US would have been as quick to drop a bomb on Germany if the war had been ongoing. Given the US’ strong pro-Europe history, I have my doubts, but of course no cites or facts to back it up.

I mean, if they thought the fire-bombing up until then had been bad, they had no idea what was being planned as an encore.

Truman’s stated reason was that he wanted to save the lives of Allied servicemen. Which the early surrender did prevent.

It’s possible Truman was taking a long view. He told Stalin, during the Potsdam conference, that the USA possessed a new and very powerful weapon (Stalin had already known about the Manhatten Project through informants.), but Stalin did not back away from his demands on issues regarding Eastern Europe and the Far East. Truman may have felt that he needed to prove that we had such a weapon, and that we were willing to use it.

Did the Japanese surrender because of the A-bomb, or the Soviets?

IMO, both. The Japanese Emporer appeared to be personally moved by the destruction he witnessed. (He was dure to know that a single plane was rumored to do all that damage.) The routing of the Japanese Manchurian forces was another nail in the coffin, (probably) swinging over some of the key Army hardliners to support the Emporer.

Was Japan trying to surrender prior to the bombs dropping? Maybe. I recall that the Japanese were putting “feelers” out through various neutral embassies. But the Allied powers did not accept a conditional surrender from Germany, either. With the Allies clearly winning the war, there was no political or tactical reason to accept a conditional surrender from Japan, just a humanitarian one.

I saw somewhere (History Channel, no doubt) that Japan was working on an atomic bomb of their own at the time. If that’s true, and if they were eventually successful, how do you think the Japanese would have deployed it?

What would’ve been planned as an (I assume you mean non-nuclear) encore? If all the major cities had been bombed out (with the exception of Kyoto, which War Secretary Stimson had ordered be left untouched, and of course the atomic bomb candidates) I imagine that any future bombing campaign would’ve been less effective. Bombing the countryside obviously wouldn’t be as destructive in terms of lives or infrastructure as bombing the center of Tokyo had been.

Perhaps I’m wrong and their was more left to destroy, but from the history I’ve read of the US bombing campaign, that wasn’t the impression I was left with.

I believe that this thinking is based on a lot of post-bomb reasoning. It is worth remembering that the A-bomb was seen as simply another tactic to devastate the enemy. Just like the firebombing of Dresden or Tokyo. Given that the firebombing of Dresden did occur in Europe, I think that the onus is on those supporting this thesis to prove that the US and Britain wouldn’t have used an A-bomb against Germany. The US was pressing everything it could to get Japan to agree to the unconditional surrender required from the Atlantic Conference. The A-bomb was available, and so it was used.

The horror and fear that moderns have regarding the use of an atomic weapon has always seemed a bit silly. I’m sure that the people burned in the Tokyo firebombing could tell themselves that at least they weren’t burned like those burned at Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Neither is a good addition to one’s day.

At the time that the decision to drop the bomb was made the official spokespeople of the Japanese government were still talking about how the warrior spirit of the Japanese people wouldn’t let them be defeated. There was even an attempt, the night before the surrender was announced, to enact a palace coup to prevent the surrender - because there were highly placed military personnel who felt that fighting was still possible. And this was even after both Hiroshima and Nagasaki; when the common people in Japan were often starving, because their transport system had been so devastated food couldn’t get where it was needed.

I’ve thought Hiroshima was necessary, but probably not Nagasaki. However my father would have been sent from Europe to Japan if there was an invasion, so I might not be here if not for the bomb.

But for something new: would the chance of a nuclear war have been greater or lesser if the bomb had never been dropped? It’s a given that the Russians were going to get it.

Reading sf stories from the late 40s and early 50s shows what an impact the bomb made. I don’t think dropping on an uninhabited island, or a bunch of abandoned buildings, would have nearly the impact of Hersey’s Hiroshima, which described what the bomb did to people.

My opinion is that war would have been more likely, and that in an odd way the sacrifice of those in Hiroshima might haved saved millions or billions of lives.

The firebombing of Dresden was a British operation though, wasn’t it? To the best of my limited knowledge, the US tried to limit its bombing operations in Europe to “targeted” missions. Of course targeted missions with the technology of the time wasn’t exactly percise, and often failed to destroy the target or limit collateral damage. But so far as I know the US refrained from carpeting European cities with incindiaries in the way they did in Japan or the British did in Europe.