The Graduate (OPEN SPOILERS)

[olivesmarch4th]

So, I was born in 1983, almost two decades after this film was made.
Mr. Olives and I were watching the Simpson's commentary from Season 6, the episode where Homer's Dad and Marge's Mom run off together... all the commentators were just gushing about "The Graduate" as being a really excellent movie, and I'm a huge fan of many movies with Dustin Hoffman, so we thought, "Why not?" and rented it.

Well, I mean... I don't even really know what to say without swearing a lot. That movie knocked me flat on my ASS. It's one of the best movies I've ever seen... EVER... and keeping in mind when it was filmed (1967) I find it even more impressive. It had to be so scandalous back then and I swear it felt scandalous even by modern standards. Wow... just...

For one thing, the directing was stunning. The film montage of Ben's character drifting in the pool and its interspersion with laying in bed with Mrs. Robinson was incredible. I just couldn't take my eyes off the film... the fact that it was able to convey such almost unbearable irony without a single word being spoken. And the acting was equally phenomenal, right from the opening credits with Ben's character riding the escalator. One of my favorite scenes was the bedroom scene where he's trying to talk to Mrs. Robinson, and you can see this kind of vulnerability cracking through... everything down to her eye movements and her posture, and the contrast between his face and hers... neither can see the other's expression, and it's so painfully clear that the connection isn't there. It was so tragic and yet funny at the same time, because the idea that they WOULD connect was absurd. So what resulted in moments like these, and many others, is not a film that was tragic in parts and funny in parts, but a film that was both tragic and comic at once, even in the same moments.

Not to mention I found Ben's actions totally convincing, in a real "Hamlet" way. I mean he got really out there, tracking Elaine across the state and doing some stalker-ish things, but I totally bought it. He seemed just young and naive enough to do it, and somehow I didn't find it creepy either... probably because it has more to do with the insanity of youth than anything else. We watched the special features in which the director describes the "theme" of the movie: "a boy who saves himself through madness." I find that a completely accurate description.

I just loved that the whole thing held me in utter suspense through and through... that a drama-dark comedy could actually be suspenseful, in the fact that you gut-wrenchingly care what happens to the characters and have no idea what's going to happen next... well, that's amazing to me.

And you keep guessing about Mrs. Robinson's character until the very end, in the church, when you see her absolute glee at Ben arriving too late, and her absolute enjoyment of Elaine suffering. And it was SO BALLSY that she was already married by the time he arrived. Jesus. And running out of the church swinging a crucifix, that moment where Mrs. Robinson screams, "It's too late!" and Elaine responds, "Not for ME!" Damn. That was like... comparable maybe only to the wicked witch melting in the Wizard of Oz in terms of Epic Smackdown.

Finally, the last moments, where they let the camera stay on Ben and Elaine, and they laugh and look at each other lovingly and then they just kind of stare and fidget, and you can see, in that moment, their blatant youth and naivety, that "What the hell did I just do?" moment. And it's okay, somehow... you don't even need the relationship to work out for the moment of triumph to work... because the triumph was walking away from a life you don't want, in the interest of trying to find one you do.

I mean, I just don't know what to say. When that film ended I actually got up and danced around the living room. It kills me that I almost lived my life without ever experiencing it. And that's how movies SHOULD make you feel.

Anyways... I do have one question.
What is Mrs. Robinson's motivation for keeping Ben from dating Elaine? She obviously doesn't care about him, though that's not clear yet when that conversation takes place. Mr. Olives' original theory was that she wanted to protect her daughter from making the same mistake she did and marrying someone she didn't love due to pregnancy. My theory was that she loved him and knew the two kids would be perfect for each other. Neither, clearly, turned out to be the case. So what's the dilly, yo?

[betenoir]

Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th

The film montage of Ben's character drifting in the pool and its interspersion with laying in bed with Mrs. Robinson was incredible. I just couldn't take my eyes off the film... the fact that it was able to convey such almost unbearable irony without a single word being spoken. And the acting was equally phenomenal, right from the opening credits with Ben's character riding the escalator. One of my favorite scenes was the bedroom scene where he's trying to talk to Mrs. Robinson, and you can see this kind of vulnerability cracking through... everything down to her eye movements and her posture, and the contrast between his face and hers... neither can see the other's expression, and it's so painfully clear that the connection isn't there.

I agree. Those are two of the best scences in the movie. The montage was brilliently done, technically and artistically. And the bed scene was sad and profound and showed that Mrs. Robinson was probably the only one with any depth in the movie. Horribly damaged but not shallow.

Which goes to the actual question. I don't think it was as simple as some sadisim on her part. Wanting her daught to suffer. She didn't want her daughter with someone she doesn't consider worthy...because he had been with her. And she didn't want her daughter taking away what little she had. She thought the daughter would be better off with the other safer guy...probably the damaged part thought so. Complicated. What a great character.

[alice_in_wonderland]

1) She wasn't married yet - they had said their vows but there was no "pronouncement" of marriage and they certainly hadn't signed any of the documents yet.

2) Mrs. Robinson doesn't want Ben with Elaine because she feels he isn't good enough for her. She would never condone her daughter being with a man who would have an affair with a married woman.

3) I love the burlesque scene. I desperately want to learn to twirl tassles in opposite directions with my boobies.

[olivesmarch4th]

She didn't want her daughter with someone she doesn't consider worthy...because he had been with her. And she didn't want her daughter taking away what little she had. She thought the daughter would be better off with the other safer guy...probably the damaged part thought so.

Ooh, I never thought of it that way. Intriguing.

She wasn't married yet - they had said their vows but there was no "pronouncement" of marriage and they certainly hadn't signed any of the documents yet.

I dunno. When he ran up there they had just kissed... kissing comes at the very end of the ceremony. I don't know, as I'm not an officiant, when the marriage is officially legal (and many officiants do the paperwork before the wedding, though they're not supposed to.)

Regardless, it was much further than any other movies I've ever seen have dared to go. You get the sense during that scene that it IS too late, which is something that rarely happens in movies nowadays. They even talked in the commentary about how they decided to push it all the way to the end of the ceremony at the last minute... and how the director felt uncomfortable with that, but that he stayed with the discomfort and felt the result was much more powerful.

She would never condone her daughter being with a man who would have an affair with a married woman.

I like betenoir's explanation... Ben wasn't "not good enough" for her daughter because he had sex with a married woman. He wasn't good enough because he had sex with her.. .and she valued herself so little that just his being with her devalued him.

I desperately want to learn to twirl tassles in opposite directions with my boobies.

That scene was awesome. Especially when he was pointing out the trick to Elaine, "Hey, could you do that?" Classy.

[alice_in_wonderland]

Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th

I dunno. When he ran up there they had just kissed... kissing comes at the very end of the ceremony. I don't know, as I'm not an officiant, when the marriage is officially legal (and many officiants do the paperwork before the wedding, though they're not supposed to.)

Regardless, it was much further than any other movies I've ever seen have dared to go. You get the sense during that scene that it IS too late, which is something that rarely happens in movies nowadays.

Well, it's certainly cutting it close, however, I'm pretty sure it was a catholic service and the marriage would be annuled as it was never consumated, for sure. I always looked at it as Elaine hearing her mother say "It's too late." and her thinking "Well, we'll just see about that." I never figured she actually wanted to be with Ben - she just wanted to defy her mother. That (to me) explained the uncomfortable silence in the bus after the laughing.

[olivesmarch4th]

I never figured she actually wanted to be with Ben - she just wanted to defy her mother. That (to me) explained the uncomfortable silence in the bus after the laughing.

I'm not convinced Elaine didn't want to be with Ben at all, but I do agree it had a lot more to do with rebellion than anything else. The uncomfortable silence thing is great -- I seem to remember reading somewhere that it's not in the original script, they were just supposed to be laughing and the director happened to catch their real-life uncomfortable silence.

Either way, great movie. The best ones are those open to interpretation.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th

Either way, great movie. The best ones are those open to interpretation.

If you'd like a pleasant surprise, read the novel (by Charles Webb). Other than a few late 1960s details (the novel was published in 1963) it's very close to the movie in feel and the dialogue is almost word for word taken from the book. It's a gem. You'll enjoy it.

[Darryl Lict]

I'm glad you loved it. It's one of my favorite movies of all time. I know that a lot of people feel that it hasn't stood the test of time. I think it has, but also captures the era perfectly. Dustin Hoffman and Anne Bancroft were terrific in those roles. There was actually only 6 years difference in their ages. I love the Simon and Garfunkel soundtrack, it was so 1967!

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th

I'm not convinced Elaine didn't want to be with Ben at all, but I do agree it had a lot more to do with rebellion than anything else. The uncomfortable silence thing is great -- I seem to remember reading somewhere that it's not in the original script, they were just supposed to be laughing and the director happened to catch their real-life uncomfortable silence.

The story I heard is that the director deliberately didn't yell "Cut!" like he was supposed to do, and so the actors did their laugh and then were sitting there thinking, "Okay, what's going on, when is this gonna be over?" That puzzled, worried look about the immediate future perfectly captured the character's feelings.

Daniel

[Trunk]

It's a great movie.

I might also add. . .I saw it when I was like 19-20 and Mrs. Robinson gave me a rockin' hard on.

I might be crucified for even mentioning it in the same thread, but someday, when "The Graduate" has faded from your mind, and is really just a pleasant memory -- AND NO SOONER -- rent "Rumor Has It. . ."

But, I recommend that with reservations. Almost no one else liked it, people or critics.

[Liberal]

Just wanted to say that this was one of the movies that appeared in my list the of 50 most important Hollywood films. (Number 30). It is a great film from my generation, and I'm delighted that you liked it.

[lieu]

You gave a wonderful description of it, that's for sure. Thrills me to see this great show is still being appreciated anew even 40 years after it first made such huge waves.

Did you happen to notice when they were in the apartment Benjamin was renting from Mr. MCCleery (Norman Fell) and Elaine screamed who came running? A very young Richard Dryfuss.

Awhile back they were discussing The Graduate on TCM and they mentioned Charles Grodin was originally cast as Benjamin but the deal fell through because of a salary dispute. Get this... Robert Redford screen tested but, rightfully, Nichols figured he really didn't project the underdog qualities needed for the part.

[Voyager]

I'm glad you like it, as I do, but I'm a bit amused at your reaction to its "age." We had talkies and everything back in 1967, and we had even invented sex back then. I don't remember it being considered especially scandalous. The montage was good, but not exactly innovative. The soundtrack was far more innovative, since I don't recall a lot of movies with songs by only one group before that time.

[Trunk]

Originally Posted by Voyager

I'm glad you like it, as I do, but I'm a bit amused at your reaction to its "age." We had talkies and everything back in 1967, and we had even invented sex back then. I don't remember it being considered especially scandalous. The montage was good, but not exactly innovative. The soundtrack was far more innovative, since I don't recall a lot of movies with songs by only one group before that time.

I always thought it got credit for using pop music at all -- instead of orchestrations written primarily for the movie -- not just music from a single artist.

[olivesmarch4th]

We had talkies and everything back in 1967, and we had even invented sex back then. I don't remember it being considered especially scandalous.

This is interesting, to me. As best I understand about history, the difference between the 50s and the 60s in terms of cultural norms was tremendous... I think of it as an almost violent rift (but like I said, I wasn't alive back then.) This movie was filmed... not much more than a decade after "Brown vs. the Board of Education" ended segregation in schools. (I'm sorry, one of the things that truly makes me unable to relate to the 40s/50s is the reality of segregation. It's hard for me to accept that other things weren't drastically different, too...) It just seems to me, in '67, there must have been a large number of conservatives scandalized by this film. If that wasn't the case, if things weren't much different than they are now, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. It comes from a truly earnest struggle to understand that bizarre progression from 1950's nuclear family type stuff to the Civil Rights movement to freakin' Vietnam and Woodstock.

[hajario]

It is a great film, one of my favorites. I was a child when it came out and didn't see it until the mid-80's when I was in college.

he last moment was a bit of serendipity. They had done the laughing take a few times and the director didn't feel like it was right and was getting pissed off at the actors. When that take was over, they were nervously looking at the director to see if they finally got it right.

I saw an interview with Roger Ebert several years ago. They asked him about any of his reviews that he thinks that he got wrong in retrospect. In his original review of The Graduate he said that the plot and acting were great but the music was forgettable.

[WhyNot]

Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th

This is interesting, to me. As best I understand about history, the difference between the 50s and the 60s in terms of cultural norms was tremendous... I think of it as an almost violent rift (but like I said, I wasn't alive back then.) This movie was filmed... not much more than a decade after "Brown vs. the Board of Education" ended segregation in schools. (I'm sorry, one of the things that truly makes me unable to relate to the 40s/50s is the reality of segregation. It's hard for me to accept that other things weren't drastically different, too...) It just seems to me, in '67, there must have been a large number of conservatives scandalized by this film. If that wasn't the case, if things weren't much different than they are now, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. It comes from a truly earnest struggle to understand that bizarre progression from 1950's nuclear family type stuff to the Civil Rights movement to freakin' Vietnam and Woodstock.

I think this is a common mis-nostalgic view of the times before Woodstock. Yes, there was quite a bit of pressure to maintain the perfect family values type life. On the other hand, there was still daring art and cinema.

Advise and Consent had the first gay bar on film in 1962.

Blackboard Jungle was a "wise mentor in a high school of hooligans" in 1955 - 12 years before To Sir, With Love. It was rather scandalous for its portrayal of teenage rebellion, and further maligned for the acts of vandalism teenagers performed at its screenings.

No Way Out, in 1950, tackled racism headon, including scenes of a race riot and a main character who refuses medical treatment from a (black) doctor.


Heck, in 1932, I Am A Fugitive From a Chain Gang was banned in Georgia for it's graphic portrayal of life in a prison work unit, and is often considered instrumental in getting prison work programs eliminated.

Movies, even those made under The Code, have always pushed the boundaries of what's acceptable, from the first moving picture which frightened women with a moving train, to actors giving actual blow jobs to the director/star on camera. Controversy wasn't invented in 1960, either!

[Liberal]

Violent rift is a good way to put it. The conservatives were quiet back then. They even were called the "silent majority". One could feel a general "tsk tsk, what's the world coming to" collective sigh, but frankly I think they were shell shocked. Between civil rights marches, race riots, campus protests, hippy communes, rock music concerts, and women's liberation — the assault on their sensibilities must have been overwhelming. It took a while for them to organize and react, really. I've often said that the 1960s ended on May 4, 1970.

[PoorYorick]

Originally Posted by WhyNot

I think this is a common mis-nostalgic view of the times before Woodstock. Yes, there was quite a bit of pressure to maintain the perfect family values type life. On the other hand, there was still daring art and cinema.

Hell, from watching movies when I was a kid, I didn't think premarital sex ever happened before 1967.

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th

Anyways... I do have one question.
What is Mrs. Robinson's motivation for keeping Ben from dating Elaine? She obviously doesn't care about him, though that's not clear yet when that conversation takes place. Mr. Olives' original theory was that she wanted to protect her daughter from making the same mistake she did and marrying someone she didn't love due to pregnancy. My theory was that she loved him and knew the two kids would be perfect for each other. Neither, clearly, turned out to be the case. So what's the dilly, yo?

It is a great movie. I think the reason is:

1) He would not be the kind of provider she envisioned for her daughter.

2) The fact that she already fucked him would always be the 900 lb gorilla in the room.

3) She's bittah.

It's been a while since I've seen it. It's due for a re-screening.

[Darryl Lict]

Originally Posted by lieu

Did you happen to notice when they were in the apartment Benjamin was renting from Mr. MCCleery (Norman Fell) and Elaine screamed who came running? A very young Richard Dryfuss.

Wasn't it "Want me to call the cops?" or something like that.

If we're delving into trivia, everyone from around here knows that when Benjamin is racing to Santa Barbara in his ever so awesome Alfa, he goes through the tunnel at Gaviota. The tunnel is, of course, only on the northbound side of the freeway.

[Sattua]

Another interesting tidbit about the film: in the scene where Ben and Mrs. Robinson have sex for the first time, one of the cuts was a first take: Anne Bancroft is undressing. Dustin Hoffman was told to "wing it," and for some reason decided that slapping a hand onto her breast was the thing to do. As soon as he did it, he realized it was an incredibly stupid thing to do, and started to laugh. Unable to control himself, he walked off camera, then back onto camera with his back to it, and began knocking his head on the wall, trying to calm down.

Classy Anne was able to keep a straight face through the whole thing.

[The Scrivener]

I love Anne Bancroft's performance, but the fact is it would've been far more transgressive if that role had been filled by a genuinely middle-aged woman (at least forty) with a less-perfectly preserved figure. IRL Bancroft, at age 36, was just a shade under being six years older than Hoffman, and a tad too young to play Ross' mother -- unless she was knocked up at around fifteen.


When I was in college, I wrote a paper comparing/contrasting the novel and the film. I scarcely remember it now, but one of the things I touched on was the film's use of reflective surfaces (mirrors, panes of glass, watery surfaces) in underscoring the theme of identity (or, perhaps more accurately if I were to write it today, performativity in the public and private spheres) -- the way that Ben, who is trying to stave off the formation of an adult identity and role for himself, and Mrs. Robinson, who is unhappy and unfulfilled in her role as a wife and mother -- are playing with notions of who and what they are and are supposed to be in the eyes of others. (Having said that, though, the ultimate framing device depicting Ben wasn't a reflective surface, but, famously, Mrs. Robinson's come-hither legs!)

There's a lot to consider in the story, but the one thing everyone in the class agreed on was the film's superiority to the novel. "Who is Charles Webb?" has to be one of the all-time best trivia questions for Jeopardy!'s "name the author" category.

[Morbo]

Originally Posted by Darryl Lict

If we're delving into trivia, everyone from around here knows that when Benjamin is racing to Santa Barbara in his ever so awesome Alfa, he goes through the tunnel at Gaviota. The tunnel is, of course, only on the northbound side of the freeway.

That pales in comparison to him driving over to Berkeley to visit her at Cal....on the upper span of the Bay Bridge, going East. That's the wrong way. I can't fathom shutting down the Bay Bridge for one shot in a movie these days - there would be a riot.

[Darryl Lict]

Originally Posted by Dooku

That pales in comparison to him driving over to Berkeley to visit her at Cal....on the upper span of the Bay Bridge, going East. That's the wrong way. I can't fathom shutting down the Bay Bridge for one shot in a movie these days - there would be a riot.

I remember someone telling me this so I've studied the shot a little bit. Are you sure that he is actually driving towards Berkeley? I seem to recall that it was difficult to see anything definitive as far as Yerba Buena Island/San Francisco/Berkeley goes. The Bay Bridge is symmetrical from certain angles. If I was shooting it, I would've had the Alfa drive on the top level towards San Francisco and use artistic license to justify it. This would be a lot easier than shutting down the Bay Bridge, even in 1967!

[Morbo]

Originally Posted by Darryl Lict

I remember someone telling me this so I've studied the shot a little bit. Are you sure that he is actually driving towards Berkeley? I seem to recall that it was difficult to see anything definitive as far as Yerba Buena Island/San Francisco/Berkeley goes. The Bay Bridge is symmetrical from certain angles. If I was shooting it, I would've had the Alfa drive on the top level towards San Francisco and use artistic license to justify it. This would be a lot easier than shutting down the Bay Bridge, even in 1967!

Oh, I'm quite certain. It's very clear based on what you see in the background that he's going the wrong way - the helicopter pans across Yerba Buena quite clearly, (though briefly), and you can see Richmond Harbor and GG fields in the distance. Not difficult at all to see definitive geography - for locals, anyway.

[Darryl Lict]

Originally Posted by Dooku

Oh, I'm quite certain. It's very clear based on what you see in the background that he's going the wrong way - the helicopter pans across Yerba Buena quite clearly, (though briefly), and you can see Richmond Harbor and GG fields in the distance. Not difficult at all to see definitive geography - for locals, anyway.

OK, you're probably right. Ignorance fought and all that. I will double check it the next time I get the DVD though. It must've been a cluster fuck to shut down the Bay Bridge and get cars to drive the wrong way on both levels.

But, just to make sure, I had to check IMDB, which has a great trivia trivia section. Neither the Gaviota Tunnel nor the Bay Bridge is mentioned. However it does say that the leg in the movie poster is that of Linda Gray!

Another hilarious bit:

Originally Posted by IMDB

Robert Redford screen-tested with Candice Bergen for the part of Benjamin Braddock but was finally rejected by director Mike Nichols because Nichols did not believe Redford could persuasively project the underdog qualities necessary to the role. When he told this to Redford, the actor asked Nichols what he meant. "Well, let's put it this way," said Nichols, "Have you ever struck out with a girl?" "What do you mean?" asked Redford. "That's precisely my point," said Nichols.

And, frighteningly enough, the song "Mrs. Robinson" had a working title of "Mrs. Roosvelt", about Eleanor Roosevelt. Yikes, that would not have worked!

[Frostillicus]

I first saw The Graduate in the mid 70s when I was in high school. It totaly blew me away then, and has held up well over numerous repeat viewings. Highlights include:

- the Simon and Garfunkel music
- the famous shot of Ben as seen through Mrs. Robinson's crossed legs ("Mrs. Robinson, I think you're trying to seduce me.")
- the half-baked line ("No. Its completely baked.")
- the church scene, especially when Elaine finally screams "Bennnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!"

[betenoir]

Originally Posted by PoorYorick

Hell, from watching movies when I was a kid, I didn't think premarital sex ever happened before 1967.

No, no. Sexual intercourse began in 1963 (which was rather late for me) -- Between the end of the Chatterley ban and the Beatles' first LP

[lieu]

Originally Posted by PoorYorick

Hell, from watching movies when I was a kid, I didn't think premarital sex ever happened before 1967.

No, but I'd guess pretty frequently after '69.


How could you not forever be a fan of Buck Henry after this film too. Besides being ever so perfect as the hotel clerk, if memory serves he's also the one that came up with the "One word... Plastics." line.

Hell Buck, just shoot me next time.

[Siam Sam]

I friggin' love that film. You know the part at the end when they run off, and he sticks the cross through the church doors to lock them in? That inspired me to lock in my high school's choir class in the same manner.

[Rodgers01]

You guys are almost making me want to give this movie a second shot. I saw it +/- 10 years ago, and was disappointed -- couldn't see what all the fuss was about. Maybe it's time to give it another shot...



**Though, for the record, I'm not the only one who doesn't think it has aged well: I submit Roger Ebert's retrospective review.

[Siam Sam]

One of the few times I've disagreed with Ebert.

[WhyNot]

Originally Posted by Rodgers01

You guys are almost making me want to give this movie a second shot. I saw it +/- 10 years ago, and was disappointed -- couldn't see what all the fuss was about. Maybe it's time to give it another shot...



**Though, for the record, I'm not the only one who doesn't think it has aged well: I submit Roger Ebert's retrospective review.

Ah, this helps make sense of things for me. When I saw it about a year ago, I thought Mrs. Robinson was the most interesting person in the film and just wished everyone else would...well...snap out of it. Everyone (but her) just seemed to be in a fugue state. I liked the movie a lot, but I thought Benjamin was an ass and Elaine a twit and, as the old Yiddish saying goes "At least G-d in his wisdom didn't ruin two families with those two!" Or something like that. They deserved each other, in their idiocy together. Blonde boy was lucky to be rid of her.

So I wasn't missing anything. At least, nothing other than a generational perspective.