John McCain has officially jumped the shark.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

McCain to Deliver Keynote Speech for Creationism

on February 23, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) will be the keynote speaker for the most prominent creationism advocacy group in the country. The Discovery Institute, a religious right think-tank, is well-known for its strong opposition to evolutionary biology and its advocacy for “intelligent design.” The institute’s main financial backer, savings and loan heir Howard Ahmanson, spent 20 years on the board of the Chalcedon Foundation, “a theocratic outfit that advocates the replacement of American civil law with biblical law.”

Dude...what HAPPENED to you? I used to respect you, sort of. I kind of bought into that "Maveric" shit for awhile and I liked that you were one of the only prominant Senators from either party who was willing to talk about campaign finance reform. I did and still do respect your service and what you went through at the Hanoi Hilton buys you a lot of slack from me, but dude....Creationism? Either you're a total numbskull (which I don't believe), or you simply lack any sense of embarrassment or shame. Either way, it's almost impossible for me to take you seriously anymore.

[Liberal]

Meh. He jumped the shark a long time ago. Did anyone besides ABC even present him as representative of conservatives in 2006?

[drm]

...a religious right think-tank...

My oxymoron metre just exploded.

[David Simmons]

Hasn't McCain been cozying up to that part of the Republican party for quite a while now?

I don't suppose he loses any sleep over it, but he lost me a couple of years ago because of that.

[elucidator]

The shark is filing charges.

[CynicalGabe]

There's jumping the shark, and then there is having your way with it in a manner that violates all legal and moral norms.

[Larry Borgia]

Fuck.

That's all I gotta say.

[Caridwen]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

McCain to Deliver Keynote Speech for Creationism

Dude...what HAPPENED to you? I used to respect you, sort of. I kind of bought into that "Maveric" shit for awhile and I liked that you were one of the only prominant Senators from either party who was willing to talk about campaign finance reform. I did and still do respect your service and what you went through at the Hanoi Hilton buys you a lot of slack from me, but dude....Creationism? Either you're a total numbskull (which I don't believe), or you simply lack any sense of embarrassment or shame. Either way, it's almost impossible for me to take you seriously anymore.

I always thought he was a passive-agressive phony.

[Captain Carrot]

I have now lost the respect I had for him due to CFR. (It was flawed, sure, but something.)

[Marley23]

He's run to the right so fast he broke the sound barrier. And all it's cost him so far is any shred of dignity he once had. Only 18 months 'til the election...

[Vinyl Turnip]

Sadly, I think McCain has been full of shit all along, and has simply gotten much worse at hiding it—or just stopped trying.

David Foster Wallace wrote an interesting essay called "Up, Simba!" (originally published in Rolling Stone, also included in a book titled Consider the Lobster: And Other Essays) about a week he spent following McCain's presidential campaign in 2000. He talks of that very thing—McCain's "maverick" image, and the allure of believing in a political figure who appears to tell it like it is—but also describes events that suggested, even then, that things were not quite as they seemed.

That McCain was able (for a time) to garner an unusual level of support, or at least interest, from many who would oppose most of his stated positions is somewhat remarkable, but in the end he seems to be just another opportunistic politico.

[GIGObuster]

Oh nice going McCain! Now you are showing that you are as dumb as Peter Griffin!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:FGPetarded.jpg


Why not as dumb as a Creationist, you may ask?

Well, you have to notice that these are the Intelligent Design people, they are officially not creationists, but even in the latest case law the judge found that there is very little difference. So, not as dumb as creationists, but not by much really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmil...chool_District

[marshmallow]

I thought the McCain=maverick meme crashed and burned back in 2004 when McCain was suckling on Bush's balls the entire presidential campaign.

[Voyager]

As he jumped the shark, the shark said "I did too evolve" and gobbled the fuckwad right up.

The North Vietnamese couldn't do it, but the far right scum seem to have turned him into the Creationist Candidate.

[Robot Arm]

Is it just me? I don't get all the consternation over who a politician speaks to. I'm concerned with who they listen to.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

Is it just me? I don't get all the consternation over who a politician speaks to. I'm concerned with who they listen to.

To whom do you think McCain is listening, in this case or in general?

Who knows, he may use his keynote speaker address to affirm his belief that intelligent design is not a scientific theory and therefore should not be presented as science, but that seems doubtful. I would also be surprised to see him headline at a Klan rally in order to promote racial tolerance.

As Jon Stewart observed, it seems the "Straight Talk Express" has been rerouted through Bullshit Town.

[wolf_meister]

Heck I'm going to defend John McCain.
I don't think for a minute he believes in the whacko creationist, "intelligent design squad" bullshit. Doesn't anyone remember the 2000 election? McCain got off to a very strong start in the primaries as the Republican nominee. So, what happened then? "Dubya" started visiting the whacko nut-job conservative places (remember his visit to Bob Jones University?). Then "Dubya" pursued his bullshit "good old boy" persona and got elected president.

I'd be amazed if John McCain believes any of that bullshit. I think he realizes it's the kind of shit he'll have to sling if he wants to get elected President in 2008. (which is what should have happened in 2000)
Anyone else think John McCain was royally screwed when "Dubya" started playing the "good old boy" character? And of course this all preceded the Al Gore screwjob that would transpire in the next few months of 2000.

I suppose from my posting, some people might get an inkling of a hint that I have not been too happy with the election and re-election of Dubya. Well, yeah.

[John Mace]

Can we at least wait until we hear what he says to this group before we jump all over him?

Besides, Dio, under what circumstances would you vote for McCain anyway? If the Dems ran Zel Miller?

[dnooman]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

McCain to Deliver Keynote Speech for Creationism

Dude...what HAPPENED to you? I used to respect you, sort of. I kind of bought into that "Maveric" shit for awhile and I liked that you were one of the only prominant Senators from either party who was willing to talk about campaign finance reform. I did and still do respect your service and what you went through at the Hanoi Hilton buys you a lot of slack from me, but dude....Creationism? Either you're a total numbskull (which I don't believe), or you simply lack any sense of embarrassment or shame. Either way, it's almost impossible for me to take you seriously anymore.

Why are you stealing my thoughts!?!? I feel the exact same way, or at least felt. I used to think of McCain as the "Republican that isn't afraid to admit things that are obvious". When he "suckled Bush's teat", I gave him a pass and reasoned that it would have been political suicide to not support the 'pubbie party at that point.

How far he has fallen...

First he pissed of Republicans by being defiant and a "rogue", then he pisses off Dems by gladly accepting the puppetmaster's hand up his ass (or were those his true feelings to begin with?) Either way, he has lost the credibility he once had in the eyes of both parties. The Republicans could justifiably call him a flip-flopper, and the Democrats could justifiably call him a stupid dipshit for being a keynote speaker at a retard convention. (no offense to retarded people intended)

There are three types of people in the world. Those that believe that the world was created by, and consists of, a series of scientifically explainable chemical reactions. There are those that believe that a higher power, "God" or an "intelligent designer", created man via a logical process that some refer to as "evolution". There are also those that believe that the universe was created in seven days and that man just appeared on Earth. They believe that a book, written by men, is meant to be taken literally, and that questioning such scriptures is frowned upon.

The preceding paragraph was not intended to offend anyone, and I'm sure someone will find flaws with it, holes in my reasoning, what have you. I just cannot imagine how a person can say that the concept of evolution is wrong based on something written in a book of metaphors. I have no problems believing that there is a God, I also have no reason to believe that there must be a God. Why is it so hard for people that believe in God unconditionally, to believe that he/she used evolution as a device to modify or refine existing life forms?

[dnooman]

I apologize for my overuse of quotations and commas. I tend to do that.

[LouisB]

I think McCain is insane. Really.

[Harborwolf]

Originally Posted by wolf_meister

Heck I'm going to defend John McCain.
I don't think for a minute he believes in the whacko creationist, "intelligent design squad" bullshit. Doesn't anyone remember the 2000 election? McCain got off to a very strong start in the primaries as the Republican nominee. So, what happened then? "Dubya" started visiting the whacko nut-job conservative places (remember his visit to Bob Jones University?). Then "Dubya" pursued his bullshit "good old boy" persona and got elected president.

I'd be amazed if John McCain believes any of that bullshit. I think he realizes it's the kind of shit he'll have to sling if he wants to get elected President in 2008. (which is what should have happened in 2000)
Anyone else think John McCain was royally screwed when "Dubya" started playing the "good old boy" character? And of course this all preceded the Al Gore screwjob that would transpire in the next few months of 2000.

I suppose from my posting, some people might get an inkling of a hint that I have not been too happy with the election and re-election of Dubya. Well, yeah.

Honestly, I don't care if he believes it or not. Either he's blatantly kissing ass to get votes or he's an idiot who believes it and for me either one is reason enough for me to not vote for him. The intelligent design issue was also enough for me to hold my nose and vote for Granholm over DeVos.

John Mace, McCain isn't going to go in there and shoot them and their crackpottery down. Best case scenario is that he simply avoids mentioning it.

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Captain Carrot

I have now lost the respect I had for him due to CFR. (It was flawed, sure, but something.)

Well, I have something more direct than that to help your CFR respect fade faster.

McCain Taps Cash He Sought To Limit

[RTFirefly]

Originally Posted by John Mace

Can we at least wait until we hear what he says to this group before we jump all over him?

Besides, Dio, under what circumstances would you vote for McCain anyway? If the Dems ran Zel Miller?

I'm not Dio, but I was rooting for him to sign on as Kerry's veep candidate in 2004.

And within a couple of weeks of his (allegedly) declining Kerry's (alleged) offer, McCain kissed up to Bush, and has been nearly indistinguishable from a wingnut Kool-Aid drinker ever since.

This is just one more data point. I mean, do you expect him to be any more critical of his hosts in this talk than he was of Falwell when he spoke at Liberty U.'s graduation last spring?

Originally Posted by mstay

I thought the McCain=maverick meme crashed and burned back in 2004 when McCain was suckling on Bush's balls the entire presidential campaign.

Unfortunately, it hasn't crashed and burned in the mainstream media. References to McCain as a 'maverick' abound there. For instance, here's MSNBC just a few days ago:

The maverick Arizona politician was attending an influential Munich defence conference...

A Google News search turns up lots more. And Media Matters has collected a bunch of them here, with correspondents for the Washington Post, CNN, the Wall Street Journal, etc. recently calling McCain a maverick.

[What Exit?]

Damn, ID is a deal breaker for me. Why McCain, Why?

This stinks to their perverted non-enlightened ignorant heaven.

Why is Obama sounding better daily? I am back to hoping Rudy can somehow take the Rep Nom. I still do not believe he can.

Jim

[jsgoddess]

Originally Posted by What Exit?

Damn, ID is a deal breaker for me. Why McCain, Why?

This stinks to their perverted non-enlightened ignorant heaven.

Why is Obama sounding better daily? I am back to hoping Rudy can somehow take the Rep Nom. I still do not believe he can.

Considering Rudy's run to the right, he would have given that keynote address if he had the chance.

[The Flying Dutchman]

... but dude....Creationism? Either you're a total numbskull (which I don't believe), or you simply lack any sense of embarrassment or shame. Either way, it's almost impossible for me to take you seriously anymore.

First, with regard to what McCain believes from your cite,

“I think Americans should be exposed to every point of view,” he said. “I happen to believe in evolution…I respect those who think the world was created in seven days. Should it be taught as a science class? Probably not.“

By the way, creationists don't believe the world was created in seven days...so much for what McCain knows about creation.

Now that we know where McCain stands on evolution, what is the problem with him currying support from creationists? Why should this block of voters be ignored ?

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by jsgoddess

Considering Rudy's run to the right, he would have given that keynote address if he had the chance.

It is scary the way the more moderate candidates kowtow to the Religious Right. This might be the only time I have ever hoped a candidate I liked is just giving lip service. However, even if true, it still diminishes both of them. McCain looked a lot better in 2000 than he does right today.

Jim

[Merijeek]

Let's all remember this blatant pandering when people say (and continue to say) that the RR doesn't have a stranglehold on the GOP's scrotum.

-Joe

[Paul in Qatar]

OK, let's cross him off the list.

[BobLibDem]

McCain is a whore. If he had stuck to his principles I could consider voting for him. But he sold out on the torture issue, letting it get watered down and then neutered by Bush's signing statement so to be meaningless. He has done nothing but suck up to Bush for the past 3-4 years after showing some independence earlier. He stuck a knife in his supposed friend John Kerry's back regarding Kerry's feeble attempt at humor. Anyone with two brain cells knew that Kerry did not mean to insult the troops, but instead of sticking up for a friend that he knew meant no harm, he decided to score the easy political points and join the pile-on. John McCain stands firmly for only one thing- his own ambition.

[GLWasteful]

Originally Posted by Harborwolf

John Mace, McCain isn't going to go in there and shoot them and their crackpottery down. Best case scenario is that he simply avoids mentioning it.

And considering who he'll be playing to, there's no chance of that scenario playing out at all. The Discovery Institute will make damned sure of that.

And inre The Flying Dutchman's post of what McCain has said on the record about his take on evolution v creationism, I've tightened up the quote:

Originally Posted by McCain

“I think Americans should be exposed to every point of view,” he said. “I happen to believe in evolution…I respect those who think the world was created in seven days. Should it be taught as a science class? Probably not.“

Bolding, of course, mine. Something that really bugs the hell out of me are those who will kiss ass in a roundabout fashion and refuse to say that Creationism is most assuredly not science. Damnit, man, there is no way in hell that it should be taught in a science class. Comparative religions class? Hokay. Although even at that, it would only be touched on tangentially at best. But it's not science.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally Posted by The Flying Dutchman

First, with regard to what McCain believes from your cite,


By the way, creationists don't believe the world was created in seven days...so much for what McCain knows about creation.

Now that we know where McCain stands on evolution, what is the problem with him currying support from creationists? Why should this block of voters be ignored ?

This is what McCain says when asked about ID:

Daily Star: Should intelligent design be taught in schools?

McCain: I think that there has to be all points of view presented. But they’ve got to be thoroughly presented. So to say that you can only teach one line of thinking I don’t think is - or one belief on how people and the world was created - I think there’s nothing wrong with teaching different schools of thought.

Daily Star: Does it belong in science?

McCain: There’s enough scientists that believe it does. I’m not a scientist. This is something that I think all points of view should be presented.

He thinks ID should be taught in school. He thinks it's a scientific "point of view." He thinks that scientists think it belongs in science. He appears to think that evolution is a "belief."

No way he's going to tell these morons that ID isn't science and has no business being taught as such in school. He's going to tell them that non-science should be taught as science, and that makes him an asswipe regardless of what he actually believes.

BTW, the fact that he "respects" YEC also makes him an asswipe.

[Liberal]

Actually, he said he respects the people ("those who think the world was created in seven days") who believe in YEC. That may make no difference to you, but still...

[tagos]

Originally Posted by Liberal

Actually, he said he respects the people ("those who think the world was created in seven days") who believe in YEC. That may make no difference to you, but still...

He respects morons whose votes he wants? Cool. If only I was American and able to vote for him. But that would be moronic. Isn't there any level of pandering politicians won't stoop?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally Posted by Liberal

Actually, he said he respects the people ("those who think the world was created in seven days") who believe in YEC. That may make no difference to you, but still...

That's like saying he believes the earth is round but respects those who think it's flat. It's just not a position deserving of respect.

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

That's like saying he believes the earth is round but respects those who think it's flat. It's just not a position deserving of respect.

Once again, he's not respecting the position, but the people who hold the position. I don't think that even you would say that all those flat earth people deserve zero respect just for one misquided view that they hold. Um, would you?

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by tagos

He respects morons whose votes he wants? Cool. If only I was American and able to vote for him. But that would be moronic. Isn't there any level of pandering politicians won't stoop?

No, there isn't. They will stoop to whatever level they believe to be politically expedient.

But with respect to the issue of disrespect, suppose a person believes the earth is flat, but is nevertheless kind, generous, and charitable in every way. I cannot imagine disrespecting them as people just because they are what you call morons. Knowledge is not necessarily always the most important aspect of humanity.

[tagos]

Originally Posted by Liberal

No, there isn't. They will stoop to whatever level they believe to be politically expedient.

But with respect to the issue of disrespect, suppose a person believes the earth is flat, but is nevertheless kind, generous, and charitable in every way. I cannot imagine disrespecting them as people just because they are what you call morons. Knowledge is not necessarily always the most important aspect of humanity.

Flat earthism is harmless. Young Earth creationism is not. It is a marker for a host of other stupid bigoted beliefs that impact on the rest of us on a daily basis. Such people should be isolated from the body politic and left to crawl back under whatever ignorant rock that was sheltering them before the Republicans made them their 'base'. Not pandered to.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally Posted by Liberal

Once again, he's not respecting the position, but the people who hold the position. I don't think that even you would say that all those flat earth people deserve zero respect just for one misquided view that they hold. Um, would you?

There's an issue of context, though. I don't believe he's saying he respects them for other qualities, I think he's implying that the YEC position is, in itself "respectable," even though it's not his own.

In answer to your larger question. I can like people with nutty or ignorant views and even admire or respect unrelated qualities about them. I confess that it's hard for me to respect them intellectually, though.

[wolf_meister]

What Exit?
You said "McCain looked a lot better in 2000". That's because McCain wasn't pandering to the nutjob right wing lunatic fringe that "Dubya" was in 2000. Of course that's the reason "Bubba Dubya" got elected ... twice.

So, it seems to me that if he's seriously considering getting elected President, McCain will visit Creationist Institutes, Jesus Theme Parks, Intelligent Design seminars at Bob Jones University, anti gay marriage rallies, etc. Yeah, that is pretty sad. Maybe McCain should just say 'fuck it' and drop the Presidential aspirations entirely.

[guizot]

Originally Posted by mstay

I thought the McCain=maverick meme crashed and burned back in 2004 when McCain was suckling on Bush's balls the entire presidential campaign.

Try going back to the election of 2000. Anna Quindlen just talked about it in this week's "Newsweek" (the last page).

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by RTFirefly

I'm not Dio, but I was rooting for him to sign on as Kerry's veep candidate in 2004.

I was in the camp that said "no way is that going to happen". It's a romantic idea that the parties could reconcile, but McCain might as well have joined the Democrats as run on he number 2 slot of Democratic candidate.

And within a couple of weeks of his (allegedly) declining Kerry's (alleged) offer, McCain kissed up to Bush, and has been nearly indistinguishable from a wingnut Kool-Aid drinker ever since.

This is just one more data point. I mean, do you expect him to be any more critical of his hosts in this talk than he was of Falwell when he spoke at Liberty U.'s graduation last spring?

Yeah, this is not the most disturbing thing McCain has done. Still, I'd like to see what he says before I condemn him. Given that the Dems control both houses of Congress, I'll be leaning slightly towards the Republican candidate for prez in '08 if I don't have a good reason to vote for the Dem. For instance, if it's Hillary vs McCain, it'll be a tough choice-- who is the worst panderer? We don't vote in a vacuum, and it's almost always a choice between the lesser of the two bad candidates, as far as I'm concerned.

Operationally, the president has next to ZERO influence over school curricula. The only place it might come into play is in selecting SCOTUS justices, and I doubt that McCain's pandering in a given election will influence what he actually does in that arena if he's elected. He won't decide on nominees based on what he thinks their beliefs are wrt evolution.

[Kimstu]

Originally Posted by DtC

I don't believe he's saying he respects them for other qualities, I think he's implying that the YEC position is, in itself "respectable," even though it's not his own.

I think you and Liberal are both slightly off-target in interpreting this remark. I think statements like "I respect those who think that [whatever]" are just shorthand for "I respect the right of people to believe [whatever]".

ISTM that this is not about whether or not McCain respects the personal virtues of YEC believers, nor is it about whether or not he considers the YEC hypothesis intellectually respectable. Since McCain isn't personally acquainted with all YEC believers, and since some subset of them (as would be the case with some subset of any large group of human beings) are doubtless scummy individuals deserving no respect, it would be silly for him to declare that he has personal respect for all of them. What he's trying to get at is that he respects their right to hold a belief that he may not agree with.

Pandering to the creationists by saying that ID should be taught in school science classes, though, is contemptible. If this is really the sort of hoop that all Republican candidates have to jump through these days in order to avoid losing the religious right vote, ISTM that that's good news for Democratic candidates. Many Dems ran successfully in 2006 on the basis of growing popular acceptance of the accusation that "Republicans are crooks, liars, and incompetent". Now the Dems will be able to hammer home the theme that "Republicans are crooks, liars, incompetent, and religious-fanatic nutjobs".

I agree with John that it would be nice to see the restoration of the sensible, competent, non-extremist wing of the Republican Party as a defense against too much one-party rule (and in particular, I'd like Senator Linc Chafee (R-RI) back). But it looks like the Pubs have a long way to go to get there.

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by tagos

Flat earthism is harmless.

Tell that to Dio.

Young Earth creationism is not. It is a marker for a host of other stupid bigoted beliefs that impact on the rest of us on a daily basis. Such people should be isolated from the body politic and left to crawl back under whatever ignorant rock that was sheltering them before the Republicans made them their 'base'. Not pandered to.

That's the stupidest thing you've said all day. You're condemning people who possibly have done charitable acts for people you care about. Your own ignorance needs some major work.

Originally Posted by Dio

In answer to your larger question. I can like people with nutty or ignorant views and even admire or respect unrelated qualities about them. I confess that it's hard for me to respect them intellectually, though.

No problem with that. But sometimes the intellect misguides. A lot of monsters have been very intelligent.

[David Simmons]

Originally Posted by John Mace

Given that the Dems control both houses of Congress,

[off topic]Er, ah, the Demogracts organized the Senate and named committee chairmen but they do not control the Senate. They have 49 voting Senators as do the Republicans. Then there is Lieberman so that as the the important issue of the Iraq war, the Republicans control the Senate.[/off topic]

[Captain Carrot]

That assumes that all Republicans are for the war, though, and that's not always the case. Also, Republicans up for election in 2008 are going to have to explain their votes on the war, and I can't see that becoming more popular in the next two years.

[Squink]

Originally Posted by Kimstu

it would be nice to see the restoration of the sensible, competent, non-extremist wing of the Republican Party...

You know, I haven't heard Richard Burton sing 'Camelot' in a few decades either. It'd be nice if we could bring that back too.

[Orbifold]

Originally Posted by Liberal

But with respect to the issue of disrespect, suppose a person believes the earth is flat, but is nevertheless kind, generous, and charitable in every way. I cannot imagine disrespecting them as people just because they are what you call morons. Knowledge is not necessarily always the most important aspect of humanity.

In the case of those like the people at the Discovery Institute (who are attempting to influence public policy based on their wrong-headed ideas) or John McCain (who is attempting to get a position to implement said policy) such disrespect is perfectly warranted. Your hypothetical "kind, generous, and charitable" person ceases to get a free pass at the moment they decide their flat-earth beliefs deserve to rise to the level of public policy.

[Captain Lance Murdoch]

Originally Posted by John Mace

Can we at least wait until we hear what he says to this group before we jump all over him?

Besides, Dio, under what circumstances would you vote for McCain anyway? If the Dems ran Zel Miller?

Well, he could go out there and trash creationism while the fundies boo and throw shit at him, but I doubt that will happen.

Do you remember what George W. Bush said at Bob Jones U? I don't. I know he put his stamp of approval on the place, however, by speaking there. McCain is doing the same thing with the creationist cabal. Even if he doesn't explicitly endorse creationism at the event he is tacitly endorsing it by accepting the invitation to appear before a group best known for strongly espousing it.