Witnessed two soldiers kissing (same gender)

[SSG Schwartz]

I don't want to bias this by saying what gender the two soldiers were. I don't want to bias this by saying what my reaction was. I will give you this much information. I was talking to PFC A and looked down for a minute at the paperwork PFC A presented to me. PFC B came in and had not seen PFC A for awhile. I hear lips smacking, look up and see heads withdrawing from the kiss.

So, what do you think I should have done?
What do you think I did?
What do you think about this?

Sgt Schwartz

[Quiddity Glomfuster]

Mind your own business.

[SSG Schwartz]

Originally Posted by Quiddity Glomfuster

Mind your own business.

I wish I could. I am a direct supervisor for both and should have included that in the OP.

Sgt Schwartz

[Amp]

Don't ask don't tell.

[JustAnotherGeek]

Don't ask.

Don't tell.

You don't have proof.

Mind your own business.

[Captain Carrot]

Were they on duty? If so, did this encounter compromise their abilities to perform their assigned tasks? If the answer to either of these is no, it seems to me that there is nothing you need to do about an activity that does not affect their capacity to serve, and could get them discharged if you do report it.

[Spezza]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherGeek

Don't ask.

Don't tell.

You don't have proof.

Mind your own business.

Seconded.

[SSG Schwartz]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherGeek

Don't ask.

Don't tell.

You don't have proof.

Mind your own business.

I will not ask about sexual orientation. I really don't care.
I suppose you are saying I should not report this incident to my higher-ups.
I am not sure what you are saying I don't have proof of. Are you doubting the kiss, the orientation of the Soldiers involved, or documentation of the incident?
Again, this is my business. I am responsible for the conduct of the soldiers within my platoon.

Sgt Schwartz

[Cyn]

Do whatever you'd do if they were of opposite sexes. If it's inappropriate for PFCs to kiss when in front of their supervisor, then do as you would for anyone else.

[SSG Schwartz]

Originally Posted by Captain Carrot

Were they on duty? If so, did this encounter compromise their abilities to perform their assigned tasks? If the answer to either of these is no, it seems to me that there is nothing you need to do about an activity that does not affect their capacity to serve, and could get them discharged if you do report it.

Yes, both were on duty. No, it does not change the ability to preform assigned tasks. It could efffect me personally if I knew that this kind of thing happened and I did not document it and report it to my leaders. I am required to report statements, acts, or attempted marriages involving Service Members of the same gender.


Sgt Schwartz

[delphica]

I'm genuinely curious -- what would usually happen if that had been a man soldier and a woman soldier kissing? Were you on the clock? I generally disapprove of kissing in the workplace between anyone.

I'm also a little confused by why two people who might get discharged if they are reported (going by what Captain Carrot posted) would kiss in front of you. It's not as if they didn't know you were there, if A was doing paperwork with you. It seems like it could be 1: they want to be reported, 2: they don't think you are going to do anything about it, or 3: they thought it would be funny to mess with you. Ha, or 4: they are siblings, and you thought it would be funny to mess with us.

[Oakminster]

Dude, you did not actually see them kiss. By your own statement. Perhaps you were mistaken about the whole thing. Perhaps you should make it clear that if you ever did actually see them kissing, you would be obligated to report it. But since you did not actually see it this time, you won't report it. Then perhaps you should have a beer and hope they get the clue.

[Mr. Moto]

Y'know, it is possible that some people in some circumstances will trade a kiss with someone they aren't attracted to with an early discharge from a military organization.

Of course, this only works if you can arrange it so that you can be seen.

Just saying.

[Geek Mecha]

1. You didn't see actually see the kiss, as in the actual contact of lips to lips. You can make kissing motions and sounds to someone without touching them.

2. Kissing someone of the same sex doesn't mean you're gay. This, of course, depends on the nature of the kiss in question, but since you lack proof a kiss took place, it's pretty moot.

IMO, at best you could bust them for improper conduct of some sort, with the appropriate punishment being a stern look and disapproving comment. Anything else is an overreaction.

[Mr. Moto]

BTW, the other side of "don't ask" is "don't tell". And that doesn't mean that Sgt. Schwartz isn't supposed to tell, it means the gay soldier isn't supposed to tell, either verbally or by kissing in public.

[Ferret Herder]

This is probably more common in females but not unheard of for males - depending on how you were raised/on your cultural background, greeting with a kiss on the cheek isn't completely unusual for friends. You heard lips but didn't see if they met or if cheeks were kissed.

[Quiddity Glomfuster]

Originally Posted by Sgt Schwartz

Yes, both were on duty. No, it does not change the ability to preform assigned tasks. It could efffect me personally if I knew that this kind of thing happened and I did not document it and report it to my leaders. I am required to report statements, acts, or attempted marriages involving Service Members of the same gender.


Sgt Schwartz

Right. You go tell someone you 'heard' a kiss and be prepared for laughter. Really, this is silliness. Go on about your business and don't mention this or you'll look like a loon.

[MovieMogul]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherGeek

Don't ask.

Don't tell.

You don't have proof.

Mind your own business.

I'm not in the military, and if the OPs particular code of conduct would require you to report something that was (a) brief, (b) potentially circumstantial (c) devoid of background info or context, (d) was none of my personal business, and (e) a 1-time incident to my knowledge, then I suppose it's all well and good that I'm not, because what Geek said is what I would do.

[NurseCarmen]

Are you sure they weren't doing the french kiss the air near the cheeks thing?

[Mr. Moto]

C'mon. This is the Army, not the French Riviera.

Like I said, the first thing I'd suspect with such a blatant display is someone going fishing for an early out. If I were Sgt. Schwartz, I'd put the kibosh on that really fast.

[Mr. Moto]

Let's be clear about something. I was in the Navy for five years, and knew a few gay and lesbian sailors. The ones who were discreet about it did fine and usually weren't bothered. The ones who made it public, or had it made public for them, generally had a really rough time.

So why would someone, knowing this, invite trouble this way, unless there might be a benefit of some kind at the other end? Like, for instance, an early out and a avoidance of deployment to the Mideast?

[Ferret Herder]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moto

Let's be clear about something. I was in the Navy for five years, and knew a few gay and lesbian sailors. The ones who were discreet about it did fine and usually weren't bothered. The ones who made it public, or had it made public for them, generally had a really rough time.

So why would someone, knowing this, invite trouble this way, unless there might be a benefit of some kind at the other end? Like, for instance, an early out and a avoidance of deployment to the Mideast?

I agree, that does seem extremely stupid to do unless you want to get booted out.

[Rusalka]

That's what I thought too; hearing a kiss doesn't mean a thing, you are jumping to conclusions. Females kiss each other in greeting in certain social circles, and so do men. In my opinion, it would be morally wrong to take action, especially since you *didn't see anything*. Is it normal in the military not to talk to your subordinates about inappropriate behavior?

The idea that you would get in trouble for something you didn't see is preposterous.

So what's actually against the rules in the military? Being homosexual? Acting homosexual? How does the military manage to define that?

[Sage Rat]

I would either ignore it, or give a talking to the both of them that "I don't care about who you fraternize with, but I do care about whether you will effect the morale or team spirit of others under my command. If you can't keep your relationships private to both me and others, then I'll boot your ass in two seconds. This is your one and only warning."-type thing.

[Mr. Moto]

You can't ignore it. Like I said, they chose to put on this show in front of their supervisor. That is disrespectful to him, and itself a breakdown of discipline.

I don't know that it is proof of any kind of relationship, given the issues I outlined.

This is where your knowledge of your soldiers and your leadership skills have to kick in.

[Ruby]

I have to agree with the other posters in that you didn't actually see a kiss. You're making an assumption based on what you think you heard and their "heads withdrawing". Hub has been in the military 37 years and has the least tolerance of anyone I know () and even he would likely say that unless you actually saw an act, you won't likely be able to pursue it.

I also believe that anyone who is gay and in the military is quite familiar with the "don't ask, don't tell" policy currently in effect. Anyone who would engage in a blatantly sexual act with someone of the same sex in front of their SGT, is either too stupid beyond comprehension or has an agenda (ie looking to be discharged). I have to believe that you didn't "see" what you think you saw.

The most I think you should do is to say something to them that their behavior didn't go unnoticed and that..... On second thought, just don't go there. You didn't see anything. Just let it go.

[hawksgirl]

I'd say since you admit you didn't *actually see* them kiss, I'd talk to them about it, but not report it. Warn them about what the consequences are if it happens again.

Report facts, not suspicions.

[alphaboi867]

Originally Posted by Rusalka

...So what's actually against the rules in the military? Being homosexual? Acting homosexual? How does the military manage to define that?

Actually having intercourse with someone of the same sex can land you in Leavenworth on a sodomy conviction. "Homosexual conduct" can get you a discharge. This inludes such things as; sexual intercourse, kissing, statements, handholding, pornography, getting a letter from an ex, being seen off-duty going into a gay bar, being seen off-base buying a copy of the Advocate*, etc. While it is a completely idiotic, immoral, digusting policy Sgt Schwartz is bound by oath to follow it.


*Yes, I met a guy who was seperated form the Army (fresh out of boot camp) for doing just that.

[SSG Schwartz]

Thank you all for your input. I am having a hard time processing this incident myself. I have a great deal of respect for both of these soldiers. I believe that both have respect for me, if not because of my personality, but for my duty position. I do not want either to be discharged.

My response was:


You will never do that again while in uniform.

I made eye contact with both when I said that. I reallly hope that this is the last of it. I know, from recent conversations with both, that they want to serve out the initial enlistment. I also know that some people also kiss as greeting. I do know what I heard and it will not stand up in court, but it was lip to lip kissing.

I am feeling that the general opinion is that I should keep this to myself regardless of the risks to myself and those involved.

Sgt Schwartz

[Caridwen]

Originally Posted by Sgt Schwartz

Thank you all for your input. I am having a hard time processing this incident myself. I have a great deal of respect for both of these soldiers. I believe that both have respect for me, if not because of my personality, but for my duty position. I do not want either to be discharged.

My response was:


You will never do that again while in uniform.

I made eye contact with both when I said that. I reallly hope that this is the last of it. I know, from recent conversations with both, that they want to serve out the initial enlistment. I also know that some people also kiss as greeting. I do know what I heard and it will not stand up in court, but it was lip to lip kissing.

I am feeling that the general opinion is that I should keep this to myself regardless of the risks to myself and those involved.

Sgt Schwartz

I think you handled it very well. I'm glad to know that there are people in the military such as yourself who can handle something like this in such a thoughtful way and not just react. Not that I think most people in the military are homophobic, but you were really put in an uncomfortable position.

[tomndebb]

If they were male, they were being pretty blatantly stupid if they do want to serve out their enlistment. It would seem that they are either idiotically innocent or they were baiting you for some odd reason.

If they were female, I am not sure that the same situation applies, (unless there was serious exchange of tongue), given that in U.S. society women do exchange kisses (even wet ones, although not passionate ones) as a form of greeting--particularly after an extended separation.

That, however, also raises a separate issue: are they, by any chance, of recent immigrant (2d generation or more recent) background? There are a number of societies in which even men greet each other with kisses. (Again, not passionate ones.)

As to the response, here: you've been posting long enough that you have to have known that the overwhelming majority of posters are not bothered by homosexuality and consider "don't ask; don't tell" to be the stupidest decision imposed by the military (or by Congress acceding to plaintive cries from such military luminaries as Colin Powell) in recent history.
We are unlikely to provide a very large number of posters interested in military discipline and even those of us who will accept your position as uncomfortable in that regard will only include a small number of posters who agree with Mr. Moto that "them's the rules."
So, I am pretty curious what sort of response you expected or sought?

- - -

For those of you who are insisting that MYOB is the only valid response, consider this scenario: Pfc's A and B go at it again behind the mess tent and get caught by Cpl Tightass who duly reports them to Lt. Falwell. They get hauled up before the company commander and decide to try to muddy the waters by claiming that Sgt Schwartz "knew all about it." It would be a pretty tough break to lose a career over such a stupid act of covering for some idiots who were pretty blatantly breaking the rules, even if the rules were among the dumbest imposed on human society.

[Quiddity Glomfuster]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

They get hauled up before the company commander and decide to try to muddy the waters by claiming that Sgt Schwartz "knew all about it." It would be a pretty tough break to lose a career over such a stupid act of covering for some idiots who were pretty blatantly breaking the rules, even if the rules were among the dumbest imposed on human society.

That would be the word of a senior gen-u-wine macho guy-type man over the words of (gasp! ) people suffering from teh gay. Anyway, no matter what he 'heard', I would hope nobody would ever condemn somebody without actual evidence (i.e. visual confirmation of what you thought happened). I realize it's hopelessly starry-eyed of me, but is it possible that the rules of evidence exist in the military, too? Because that would be nice.

[Sage Rat]

Originally Posted by Sgt Schwartz

I am feeling that the general opinion is that I should keep this to myself regardless of the risks to myself and those involved.

Soldiers fight wars. Personally, I would view this as one war worth fighting. If anything, getting busted down in ranks or booted from the military is a lot better for your health than getting shot at.

[RandMcnally]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

For those of you who are insisting that MYOB is the only valid response, consider this scenario: Pfc's A and B go at it again behind the mess tent and get caught by Cpl Tightass who duly reports them to Lt. Falwell. They get hauled up before the company commander and decide to try to muddy the waters by claiming that Sgt Schwartz "knew all about it." It would be a pretty tough break to lose a career over such a stupid act of covering for some idiots who were pretty blatantly breaking the rules, even if the rules were among the dumbest imposed on human society.

That's why I would have suggested against "minding your own buisness." You're their sup. It is your job to enforce the rules, rules that they knew of when they signed on the dotted line. Like the above example, I could see them saying something like that to hopefully get themselves out of trouble. Why should you jeapordize your career when they would sell you up the river in a moment?

[Walloon]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

As to the response, here: you've been posting long enough that you have to have known that the overwhelming majority of posters are not bothered by homosexuality and consider "don't ask; don't tell" to be the stupidest decision imposed by the military (or by Congress acceding to plaintive cries from such military luminaries as Colin Powell) in recent history.

Let's not forget the president who signed it into law instead of vetoing it.

[tomndebb]

Originally Posted by Walloon

Let's not forget the president who signed it into law instead of vetoing it.

He was certainly a wimp, but he did not propose or vote on the legislation. I do not cut him any slack for botching that episode, but he was not the author.

[Rodgers01]

Sounds like you handled it well Sgt Schwartz. Can you tell us now what gender they were? (I might buy the "cultural" excuse if they were women, but if they were men, even of immigrant origin, they'd have to be almost completely unsocialized in American society to think that lip-to-lip greetings were appropriate, especially in a work context.) Also, what did they say when you talked to them? Did they claim it was just a non-sexual way of greeting one another, or was there an unspoken acknowledgment that it was "something more"? If the latter, are you still legally obliged to do something?

[Nava]

Would it be acceptable behavior if they were different gender? I'd find that very strange in a regular job, same-gender or not!

[Ferret Herder]

Originally Posted by Nava

Would it be acceptable behavior if they were different gender? I'd find that very strange in a regular job, same-gender or not!

I don't know what the rules regarding "fraternizing" with the opposite sex are, but if it would be prohibited I suspect that (at least if they're the same rank) the penalty would not be nearly as severe.

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by Sgt Schwartz

I wish I could. I am a direct supervisor for both and should have included that in the OP.

Sgt Schwartz

Don't ask, don't tell. Isn't that how you're supposed to handle it? (I realize that's directed toward the "perps" but why would you think this is anyone's business but theirs?)

It should be handled the same way a het relationship would, I suppose. If they were on the clock and supposedly working, not cool. But since you said you didn't actually see the kiss, there's nothing to report.

[JustAnotherGeek]

Originally Posted by Sgt Schwartz

I am feeling that the general opinion is that I should keep this to myself regardless of the risks to myself and those involved.

I do understand that you're in a bizarre situation. I also understand that there are regs for when you need to report certain acts to the higher ups, and, if you don't (and it's later determined that you knew), you can get in career-jeopordizing trouble. That said, from your initial story, you had nothing but an assumption and some noise.

Perhaps my distaste of this this reg made me answer too tersely. The real reg is more "don't ask, don't tell, but if you know, you must report." I think you were right in informing the two in question that their actions could bring about legal consequences. Had I been there instead of you, I probably would have worded it a bit different (Look, the rules are very straight-forward, if I see it, I have to report it. Don't let me, or anyone, see it.), but, then again, IANA sgt, have never been, and (barring some sort of reality distortion) never will be.

Informing them of your responsibilities (regardless of how moral you think the rules are) may help them to understand the position you're all in. As far as keeping it to yourself, if you mean not sending it up the chain, yes, that's exactly what I think. Again, unless there's more to the story than you've told us, you do not have proof. If you told your superiors, "I think I heard the sounds of a lip-to-lip kiss while I was reading paperwork," what do you think their response would be?

[Mr. Moto]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

We are unlikely to provide a very large number of posters interested in military discipline and even those of us who will accept your position as uncomfortable in that regard will only include a small number of posters who agree with Mr. Moto that "them's the rules."
So, I am pretty curious what sort of response you expected or sought?

I don't know if I made myself clear.

The rules are the rules, but the rules can also be gamed by someone with an agenda. In the Navy, we used to call these folks "sea lawyers".

The purpose of NCOs is to provide leadership, and that means not only knowing what the rules are but how his soldiers might try to use them for their purposes. It also means understanding how those rules will affect his unit and its readiness.

At no time in my posts did I advocate that Sgt. Schwartz just report the incident and let the chips fall. I floated the possibility that an agenda was in play, and I said that his understanding of his soldiers and his leadership skills would have to be the deciding factor.

Not knowing the soldiers in question, I cannot say for certain that his decision was a good one, and even Sgt. Schwartz seems to struggle with it. However, given all of the factors involved, it probably was a sensible one.

[gigi]

Originally Posted by Kalhoun

Don't ask, don't tell. Isn't that how you're supposed to handle it? (I realize that's directed toward the "perps" but why would you think this is anyone's business but theirs?)

As mentioned upthread, "don't tell" means the soldiers don't mention their own homosexuality. Supervisors are required to act on observed behavior.

"Don't do it again while in uniform" may not be enough either, if even off hours activities are monitered, as above.

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by Sgt Schwartz

I am feeling that the general opinion is that I should keep this to myself regardless of the risks to myself and those involved.

I think you should report what you saw, except that what you saw was nothing. I think you should have asked them point blank, "Did you just kiss?" You could then have proceeded from there.

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by gigi

As mentioned upthread, "don't tell" means the soldiers don't mention their own homosexuality. Supervisors are required to act on observed behavior.

"Don't do it again while in uniform" may not be enough either, if even off hours activities are monitered, as above.

I know. That's what I said. However, since the OP didn't actually "see" the lip lock, I don't think even a warning is in order.

[ZipperJJ]

I think you did the right thing. I think the reminder will help save everyone's jobs (yours and theirs) and hopefully they respect you for not turning them in.

How did they react when you told them?

[Paul in Qatar]

1. Look up from your desk.
2. Growl "Get a room!"
3. Forget about it.

[gigi]

Originally Posted by Kalhoun

I know. That's what I said.

I thought maybe that's what you meant. sorry

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by gigi

I thought maybe that's what you meant. sorry

No harm done...we're on the same page!

[Shodan]

I would also like to know how they reacted to what you did (which sounded reasonable). Did they seem provocative, or defiant, or guilty, or what?

If they are angling for an early discharge, they might up the ante. Not necessarily in some homosexual way, but something a bit more likely to get the reaction they are looking for. Some newly discovered medical problem, or a reason for a hardship discharge, or something of that nature.

Or they are gay, and will become more discreet. Or they were pranking you, and either have wised up, or not.

Regards,
Shodan