300 - Best Fascist Propaganda Film Ever made

[Johnny Angel]

I finally saw it, and I must say I'm impressed and deeply saddened.

I loved it. It translated the techniques of the comic medium to film with surprising fluency. It was exciting and it evoked very credibly, even through it's comic book conceits, what it could possibly be like to think like a Spartan. The Spartans, by the way, would have detested us.

This is the most brilliant piece of fascist propaganda I have ever seen, and few are talking about this fact. The Spartans practice eugenics. The foreign invaders are alien, mutated, decadent and feminine haters of freedom. That freedom, by the way, is based on trumpeting the rule of law but side-stepping it when it becomes inconvenient. Diplomacy is for fagots. The racially impure among us are weak and will betray us, but ultimately Whitey can whoop every other race you can send at them from all the corners of the world because we have the will, we have the discipline, and our culture is superior.

This is a fascist masturbation fantasy.

Never mind that the Spartans are only white by revisionism. The Aryans weren't exactly what we'd call white either. If you want to draw parallels to our modern world, keep in mind that we are not the Spartans. We are the decadent, feminine, lustful and avaricious mutants who worship false idols and want the world to kneel before us. But never mind that. This film will be de rigeur for the next generation of wanna be race warriors who won't recognize that in this story we are the Persians.

We cannot let people forget that this is a fantasy. It did not take place in our world, and we have seen what becomes of trying to make such stories come true. We cannot let people forget where this kind of thinking leads.

[Miller]

I think you may be taking it a tad too seriously.

[lissener]

I think Hero, Triumph of the Will, and Starship Troopers are better fascist manifestos.

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by Miller

I think you may be taking it a tad too seriously.

With any luck, nobody else in the world will take this film seriously. But don't dismiss this. Ideas have consequences.

[Revenant Threshold]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

We cannot let people forget that this is a fantasy.

Well, thanks for the reminder! I was planning on moving to Ancient Greece to become a giant sword-handed fat man, but now I see the error of my ways.

[Hey, It's That Guy!]

Originally Posted by lissener

I think Hero, Triumph of the Will, and Starship Troopers are better fascist manifestos.

And Starship Troopers had some great boobs in it too!

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

I think that your investment in a movie adaptation of a graphic novel that was loosely based on an extraordinarily old account of an undocumented battle is perhaps greater than average.

[elucidator]

Ever see Ballad of the Green Berets, John Wayne? A contender, if one accepts a very broad definition of "facism".

[MovieMogul]

I finally caught the film myself, and I would have been more deeply offended by the racism and homophobia if the film hadn't been, on a purely aesthetic level, so incredibly painful to endure in its own right. Tedious macho-bullshit-posturing pretending to be "action", characters that are largely interchangeable and uninteresting, and a "story" devoid of any drama, tension, or emotional investment. Plus ugly as sin to look at (and if that was the filmmaker's goal: mission accoplished!).

Absolutely horrible.

[Angel of the Lord]

::looks away from the screen::

There was a *plot*?

They talked?

It's *not* just hot guys?

::looks back at the screen::

[Achren]

Originally Posted by Angel of the Lord

::looks away from the screen::

There was a *plot*?

They talked?

It's *not* just hot guys?

::looks back at the screen::

I just got back from seeing it. As far as I'm concerned it's just hot, half-naked men.

[Terrifel]

I, personally, am deeply astonished that a movie based on a Frank Miller comic book would have undertones of fascism and homophobia. No one could have predicted this.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Big Bad Voodoo Lou

And Starship Troopers had some great boobs in it too!

So did 300. Lots of 'em. Granted, they were man-boobs, but they were magnificent.

[Manda JO]

I've gotta agree that 300 had some deeply fascist undertones, though I wouldn't have put it that way. It did occur to me, half way through, that Hitler would have liked it. That doesn't mean that everyone that likes it is even a little bit like Hitler--I imagine he liked chocolate milkshakes, as well--but the movie does do a great job of setting up everyone who isn't Greek as "other"--not just other people, but creepy, alien, decadent. It's a world where opposing sides could never co-exist. When that's orcs vs. humans, that seems better than when its "vaugely British" vs. everyone else, mostly brownish. It's a movie that helped me understand facisim.

This isn't to say it's a bad movie--I loved it--or even to say it's a "facist manifesto"--mayhap instead it's a much more cynical look at human nature than it appear on first glance.

And either graphic arts (and their spawn) are real art, in which case one should be passionate about them, or they are fluff, in which case they can be dismissed.

[Little Nemo]

I agree with the OP. You can't just dismiss the message of a movie with "well, it's just a movie." People watch movies and take values from what they see. It's not irresistable mind control - you can watch The Birth of a Nation without deciding to join the Klan or Triumph of the Will without becoming a Nazi - but they do have an impact.

And the content of 300 was a fascist fantasy. For all that everybody said that they were fighting for freedom, nobody actually had any - freedom was just an empty slogan that was used to get the soldiers in a fighting mood. And the themes of "our country is better than any other country in the world and our people are better than any other people in the world" and "the law is holding us back - we need to ignore the law in order to fulfill our destiny" and "you have no worth as an individual - your worth comes from being a part of the state" all fit in well with the fascist mindset.

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by lissner

I think Hero, Triumph of the Will, and Starship Troopers are better fascist manifestos.

I don't know why you'd pick out Hero in particular, but the problem with Triumph of the Will and Starship Troopers was that they weren't nearly as good as this film. This movie is really making a mark as pure entertainment. And frankly, I don't suspect the film-makers thought making a fascist film was what they were about in making 300. But people will get such ideas out of it.

Originally Posted by Happy Scrappy Hero Pup

I think that your investment in a movie adaptation of a graphic novel that was loosely based on an extraordinarily old account of an undocumented battle is perhaps greater than average.

I laugh off a lot of morally dubious films that send the wrong kind of message. I love the Dirty Harry movies and indeed any film in which deep-rooted problems in society can be dealt with in 90 minutes by killing the right people. But we can't laugh off as ironic a subtext we never confront to begin with.

Originally Posted by elucidator

Ever see Ballad of the Green Berets, John Wayne? A contender, if one accepts a very broad definition of "facism".

I know it -- the only non-allegorical Vietnam film made during Vietnam, while most Americans still thought we were winning. Made war look glamorous, honorable. I don't know if I'd call it fascist, but I've noticed that John Wayne gets mentioned often when Vietnam vets write what they thought they were in for as they signed up. Also, it was a pretty happening song.

[lissener]

Originally Posted by Manda JO

I've gotta agree that 300 had some deeply fascist undertones, though I wouldn't have put it that way. It did occur to me, half way through, that Hitler would have liked it. That doesn't mean that everyone that likes it is even a little bit like Hitler--I imagine he liked chocolate milkshakes, as well--but the movie does do a great job of setting up everyone who isn't Greek as "other"--not just other people, but creepy, alien, decadent. It's a world where opposing sides could never co-exist. When that's orcs vs. humans, that seems better than when its "vaugely British" vs. everyone else, mostly brownish.

Yes: the Spartans are interchangeable--all nearly identical. The enemy comes in ALL sizes, shapes, colors, and genders. As I've mentioned before, it seems to demonize the very concept of diversity.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by lissener

I think Hero, Triumph of the Will, and Starship Troopers are better fascist manifestos.

I just spent five minutes trying to figure out how you found a fascist subtext to this movie.

[Little Nemo]

I don't know why you'd pick out Hero in particular

The big idea of Hero was that a nation needs a great leader who will be above the rules and who the people must follow without question. That's certainly a concept that fascist (and other totalitarian) movements would welcome.

[lissener]

Originally Posted by Manda JO

. . . It did occur to me, half way through, that Hitler would have liked it. That doesn't mean that everyone that likes it is even a little bit like Hitler--I imagine he liked chocolate milkshakes . . .

And--sorry, missed this--Hitler no doubt liked chocolate milkshakes. But you don't look at a chocolate milkshake and say to yourself, "Hitler would really like that."

[elucidator]

Not till now, no.

[lissener]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

The big idea of Hero was that a nation needs a great leader who will be above the rules and who the people must follow without question. That's certainly a concept that fascist (and other totalitarian) movements would welcome.

Exactly. Hero was little more than an arthouse propaganda piece justifying China's totalitarian government. Gorgeous, but chilling, and about as complex as your standard Worker's Opera of Mao's era.

[Manda JO]

Originally Posted by lissener

And--sorry, missed this--Hitler no doubt liked chocolate milkshakes. But you don't look at a chocolate milkshake and say to yourself, "Hitler would really like that."

Of course. I am just trying to make it clear that while I do think Hitler would have liked 300, I am not trying at all to imply that people that like 300 are like Hitler. You watch the movie and you think we need more people like the Spartans around and a lot less people like the Persians.

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

The big idea of Hero was that a nation needs a great leader who will be above the rules and who the people must follow without question. That's certainly a concept that fascist (and other totalitarian) movements would welcome.

Originally Posted by lissner

Exactly. Hero was little more than an arthouse propaganda piece justifying China's totalitarian government. Gorgeous, but chilling, and about as complex as your standard Worker's Opera of Mao's era.

Good point. I saw it in D&D terms. In the end, the hero chose law over chaos, but it wasn't an easy choice to make, nor obviously right.

[chorpler]

Originally Posted by Miller

I just spent five minutes trying to figure out how you found a fascist subtext to this movie.

Me too! I was all, "Hey! I don't remember the fascist content in that movie ... of course, all I do remember is basically 'Geena Davis ... mmmmmmmmmmm.'"

[lissener]

Originally Posted by Miller

I just spent five minutes trying to figure out how you found a fascist subtext to this movie.

Haw! A far superior film; an overlooked gem.

[Zebra]

In 300, it is the Spartans very practice of eugenics that causes their downfall.

SPOILER:

A deformed child, that would have been killed by Spartan law is spirited away by his parents. Then when he returns and offers to fight along side the Spartans he is refused. Refused for very good reasons, he isn't trained in the Spartan fighting techniques and he really can't do it. So, rejected by the Spartans, he goes to the Persians, shows them the secret path that allows them to get behind the 300.

I wouldn't call that as saying eugenics is a good idea.

[lissener]

By the way, was it your intention to post this in the Pit? Or did you mean it to go in CS?

[lissener]

Originally Posted by Zebra

In 300, it is the Spartans very practice of eugenics that causes their downfall.

SPOILER:

A deformed child, that would have been killed by Spartan law is spirited away by his parents. Then when he returns and offers to fight along side the Spartans he is refused. Refused for very good reasons, he isn't trained in the Spartan fighting techniques and he really can't do it. So, rejected by the Spartans, he goes to the Persians, shows them the secret path that allows them to get behind the 300.

I wouldn't call that as saying eugenics is a good idea.

Well, except that by rejecting him, they were in fact practicing eugenics.

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by chorpler

Me too! I was all, "Hey! I don't remember the fascist content in that movie ... of course, all I do remember is basically 'Geena Davis ... mmmmmmmmmmm.'"

Damn my selective memory. All I remember is Dustin Hoffman saying, "Everybody thinks truth is like toilet paper, and they got a supply in the closet." And when his son asks him, "What about all that you told me about always looking out for numero uno?" he admits, "I blew it."

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by lissener

By the way, was it your intention to post this in the Pit? Or did you mean it to go in CS?

Well, the OP is a rant and I'm still expecting to have to defend myself against charges of kookery. possibly crack smoking.

[Zebra]

Originally Posted by lissener

Well, except that by rejecting him, they were in fact practicing eugenics.

Which leads to thier deaths.

[athelas]

I wouldn't say that Hero is necessarily on the Qin's side, though - it's much more ambiguous than that. Sure, he "wins" in the end, but he's not portrayed as terribly heroic. And Nameless's choice was made with great difficulty, and the film ends without a definite endorsement of his final action.

[CaerieD]

Originally Posted by Zebra

Which leads to thier deaths.

Ah, but if they'd simply killed him--practicing eugenics properly--they might have triumphed! Their downfall was in their mercy.

Yeah, I can kind of see some fascist elements in the flick, though I'm not about to get too excited about it. I was also able to find Christian elements in Pleasantville.

[lissener]

Originally Posted by Zebra

Which leads to thier deaths.

Right. Eugenics is properly seen as a bankrupt idea, but its practitioners don't tend to see it that way.

[Uzi]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

Diplomacy is for fagots.

How do you negotiate with someone who wants to take your country away from you and figures (whether rightly or wrongly) that they could do it easily by force? What would you bargain with?

[Cervaise]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

the problem with Triumph of the Will and Starship Troopers was that they weren't nearly as good as this film

Starship Troopers is approximately thirty-seven times better than 300.

I tried to do the calculation on the Riefenstahl piece but my wristwatch calculator doesn't support scientific notation.

[kidchameleon]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

Never mind that the Spartans are only white by revisionism.

[lissener]

Originally Posted by Cervaise

Starship Troopers is approximately thirty-seven times better than 300.

I tried to do the calculation on the Riefenstahl piece but my wristwatch calculator doesn't support scientific notation.

Bwah! I like your math.

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by Uzi

How do you negotiate with someone who wants to take your country away from you and figures (whether rightly or wrongly) that they could do it easily by force? What would you bargain with?

When they were at the bargaining stage, the messenger only demanded a token amount of land. I wouldn't seriously believe it would stop there, but I would have sent the messenger home with a firm 'no' instead of killing him and his entourage. Ah, but that would have robbed them of a chance to commit a manly act of murder while shouting out their catch phrase. Countries rattle their sabers at us all the time. Would you have us massacre their diplomats just so they don't get to declare war first?

[Uzi]

Originally Posted by Cervaise

Starship Troopers is approximately thirty-seven times better than 300.

And about 37 times less accurate to the original storyline.

[hawthorne]

Originally Posted by Uzi

And about 37 times less accurate to the original storyline.

Only so if you think the comic book is the original story here.

[kidchameleon]

Originally Posted by lissener

Bwah! I like your math.

Would you like to know more?

[kidchameleon]

Originally Posted by hawthorne

Only so if you think the comic book is the original story here.

Unless Frank Miller was manipulating the Greeks and the Persians a few thousand years ago....

[Uzi]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

When they were at the bargaining stage, the messenger only demanded a token amount of land. I wouldn't seriously believe it would stop there, but I would have sent the messenger home with a firm 'no' instead of killing him and his entourage. Ah, but that would have robbed them of a chance to commit a manly act of murder while shouting out their catch phrase. Countries rattle their sabers at us all the time. Would you have us massacre their diplomats just so they don't get to declare war first?

Obviously, we are arguing about a movie and not reality here.

Big Stick diplomacy
The Persians were threatening to invade if they weren't satisfied in their demands. In other words: They were threatening the Spartans with a gun to their heads. If you have the capability, you remove the gun. They did that first with the Persian's Diplomat. Now, I'd have sent him back with the bit of land they had asked for and then gathered my army. Once done, I'd have tweaked Xerxes nose and then goaded him into his attack at the place of my choosing, not force it sooner like Leonidas did.
But his act demonstrated the forthright and action-oriented nature of the Spartans.

Originally Posted by kidchameleon

Would you like to know more?

The movie on its own was okay, but God, I hated it whenever I thought of the original book it took its name from.

[Lumpy]

Gary Brecher, a.k.a. the War Nerd, rips 300 apart here.. A must read.

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by Uzi

Obviously, we are arguing about a movie and not reality here.

That's just it -- the writers get to make sure their characters are absolutely right. But then people interpret this trumped up righteousness as having something to do with real life. Notice that the show 24 is just a story, and we can get catharsis from watching Jack Bauer delve into the darkness in his artifically created ticking time bomb scenarios and note that it's just fiction, but in real life the military fears that soldiers are getting the idea from 24 that torture is okay. But the situations that supposedly justify it in the show are artificial. In real life there is almost never an actual ticking time bomb scenario -- not one you know about with enough warning to torture the right people. The artificial situations that justify behavior in fiction really are applied to much less one-sided scenarios in real life.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

Gary Brecher, a.k.a. the War Nerd, rips 300 apart here.. A must read.

Loved it -- especially the point about murdering envoys. If I recall my readings in history correctly, that sort of thing has in most periods been considered despicable conduct. Honorable men should not do violence to envoys under a truce flag. (A sentiment, it's true, honored in the breach at times -- Iif I recall correctly, the young then-Prince Alexander of Macedon murdered Persian envoys after they'd offered offense to the women of the royal household.) The trailers I've seen for this movie positively wallow with delight in the well-kicking of the Persians.

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by lissener

Exactly. Hero was little more than an arthouse propaganda piece justifying China's totalitarian government. Gorgeous, but chilling, and about as complex as your standard Worker's Opera of Mao's era.

It also justified world peace.

That's a bit of the movie that lots of people miss - early on, when Nameless asked the King about his future plans, he answered that after uniting China he would look outward and start adding foreign lands to his empire. But the at the very end of the movie, we see a card saying that the King - now Emperor -was the one who built the Great Wall, bringing peace and turning China's attentions inward .

To me, that was the whole point of the film- the King's conversation with Nameless brought about the epiphany that the ultimate use of strength was in not using strength, and that unity must lead to peace.

[Autolycus]

If 300 was fascist propaganda, wouldn't that imply that the creaters of the film were fascists?

I thought it was a homo-erotic gorefest, but I missed the Heil Hitler overtones o_0;