I Hate Dubya Bashing

The BBQ Pit
1

Look, I hated Clinton bashing as well, I hated Rush for that since early 93. “457 days into the Clinton administration”. As a Canadian I just saw Rush as somewhat treasonous. Just stirring up shit.

And I look forward to another Clinton administration. I’ll give up sex tonight for that to happen.

But damn it you liberal posters, why do you rag on your president so much. What do you gain. What does society gain. Why ? Don’t you believe he’s just another fellow American going as high as he can go. He’s just a shmooze like you and me, a pawn of the American economy and constitution, but somehow enough people thought he was the best choice to lead the free world. May I remind you that privelege is reserved to Americans?
Does anyone seriously believe that Bush has some malevolent intent? Your people chose him ! Chose him twice. Are you not with the people? Do you prefer to be divided? Can’t you provide your justifiable protest with civility?
Is this attitude prevalent among liberal in real life America? I’m not picking that up in the media.

2

I wonder if this is a cultural difference. I have always seen it as my responsibility to hold a president’s feet to the fire. And yes, we know that GW is just another US citizen “going as high as he can go.” The trouble is, we know what kind of person it takes to go that high, and we’d be utter fucking morons if we trusted him for a second.

3

Carl Schurz:
“My country! When right to be kept right, when wrong to be put right, but my country right or wrong.”

Henry Watterson:
“Things have come to a helluva pass
When a man can’t cudgel his own jackass.”

4

Some thoughts -

Often a statement of fact is seen as bashing by those who wish it weren’t so. I’m reading a lot of negative stuff about the president and his administration, and much of it is fact. Many of his supporters would no doubt see it as bashing or spin.

As more and more of the stuff that’s been going on behind the scenes comes to light - loading up every single government agency with political cronies. The entire USA scandal - it really scares me, frankly. Whatever the White house’s vision for America may be, it sure isn’t mine, nor most Americans regardless of party affiliation, nor, I dare say, the men who wrote the constitution. I’m guessing that GWB will go down as one of the worst, if not THE worst president in US history. That’s not coming from some deep seated hate, and sorry it it’s seen as bashing - but it’s how I interpret the facts as I see them.

I just read an article in the New Republic about the netroots liberal movement. The premise being that it’s the next great political movement after conservatism. The actions of the white house right are having the same effect as pouring gasoline on a spark - and with the huge, sudden, uprush of feeling you are bound to get over reaction.

Every time Gonzales said “I don’t recall” under oath, another Daily Kos blogger got his wings.

5

What the boiling blue fuck are you talking about?

Oh, right, you’re an idiot. Never mind.

6

No, I don’t believe it, and I’m not a liberal. The man represents nothing but unmitigated Evil, and he is the symbol of all that has been taken from my party. He, his advisors, and all who have been part of his administration need to be driven from the capitol, horsewhipped, tarred and feathered, and erased from the history books. No president in history has done more damage to this country, and all for the short-sighted purposes of a small number of religious zealots, corporate greedheads and blatant opportunists. I will throw a party the day he and his ilk are in control no more.

7

I distrust calls for civility, aka “manners masquerading as morals”. Far too often civility is merely a stalking horse for demands that the opposition shut up and quit rocking the boat. That is not to say that I’m in favour of constantly frothing at the mouth; sooner or later, usually sooner, that song gets tired and then your voice carries no more weight than that of street preachers or other deranged lunatics. But civility is a form of respect and sometimes people, especially people in authority, need to be reminded that respect isn’t an entitlement. Treating civility as something that doesn’t have to be earned just discourages decency, which is far more important.

8

Cuz he’s a dick that’s flushing my country down the drain.

Better divided than totally screwed.

Civility must be earned. It hasn’t been.

9

The first election’s results are still sketchy. And in both cases, it was a hair over half the American population who chose him.

I suspect you’re watching the wrong media. Give Jon Stewart’s show a try. In fact, watch CNN. Quite a few guests who have appeared have been very critical.

Have you not watched this debacle? This has not been just some schmoe trying to do his best. He has subverted many rights and twisted ‘executive privilege’ to his own ends. This man and his little coterie of behind-the-scenes puppetmasters are some sort of crazy combination of evil, shortsighted, crafty, nuts, and stupid. And used the principles of influence and persuasion to bamboozle people into thinking he was doing something good.

10

Normally i’d be quick to argue here, but I think there may be more than meets the eye. I’ve never seen TFD making errors of grammar and coherence to this extent. Has something in particular pissed you off?

11

I can’t take calls for civility in political discourse too seriously when they’re issued by somebody who thought it appropriate to talk like this about John Kerry back in 2004:

Now now, Dutch, what happened to civility and non-divisiveness towards a public figure who’s “just another fellow American going as high as he can go”, “just a shmooze like you and me, a pawn of the American economy and constitution”? How come it’s perfectly acceptable for you to venomously accuse John Kerry of “malevolent intent” but not acceptable for liberal posters to make similar accusations about Bush?

Is civility only important in the case of elected Presidents? Is it okay to be as harsh and insulting as we like when talking about candidates, as long as we’re properly deferential towards the semi-monarch who actually occupies the Oval Office?

As an American, I’m glad as hell you’re not my fellow citizen. I detest Rush Limbaugh, but not as much as I detest attempts to portray criticism of politicians, even nasty and/or dishonest criticism of politicans, as treason.

12

Huh? He lost the popular vote the first time, but the second time around it was about a 3 point spread. I guess you could call the 2004 a close election, but I wouldn’t say he only won by a hair.

As for the OP, well, there is a certain amount of mindless Bushwhacking that goes around here, but I think most of what we see is deserved. The guy is a *terrible *president. If you have a purple heart, maybe you can give it to him as compensation. :smiley:

13

Several issues, here:

In case you have not been paying attention (or are not familiar with the markers that would let you recognize the differences), several of the posters who routinely point out GWB’s sins are conservatives or libertarians, not liberals. Despite the claims of some (across the American political spectrum), the issues regarding Bush are rarely split along “conservative/liberal” lines.

A number of people who criticize Bush have been calling on the rest of the country to “wake up” (in their opinion) and join them in opposing Bush’s more flagrant violations of both the letter and spirit of the American ideals and laws. From that perspective, it is not a matter of division, but a call for unity.

Regarding civility: many here are not, (in this casual Forum) disposed to displaying civility. However, I would suggest that if you actually took the time to link examples of incivility to poster names, you would find that there are rather fewer (but louder) incivil posters than you might be led to believe, based on the “volume” of their cries.

Now, if you are suggesting that I provide some sort of support for a president who [ul][li]deliberately lied us into a pointless war for some murky purpose of his own, []overrode the requirements set by his own generals regarding troop strengths to wage that war and now is chastising Congress for “interfering” with the same military by attempting to set deadlines for extracting us from that needless war, []has selected successive Attorneys General who do not seem to care much about the rights of citizens [/li] - (the second of whom argued before his appointment that the U.S. should shrug off the Hague and Geneva conventions and embrace torture and has now been shown to have permitted, if not actually colluded in, the removal of his own party’s regional attorneys for not exercising their office for political gain (with a strong suggestion that those who were not removed may, indeed, have engaged in exactly that behavior), [li]who, at the beginning of his term, facing a recession, sought long-term tax breaks for protected classes instead of the short-term economy boosting breaks that are generally conceded to be worthwhile efforts and has now taken us from a position of steadily reducing the debt to creating a debt unimaginable when it was considered horrific twenty years ago, []replaced the professional adminstrator of the bureau dealing with national disasters with a political fundraiser who disassembled most of the functioning parts of that bureau [/li]- (just in time to witness the destruction of a city and coastline that is a key element of both economic and cultural foundations of the country, [li]has supported the intervention of Congress in the private matters of life and death for a family with no clear guideline as to what that intervention was to accomplish, []has pushed entanglement of religion with the government, []has been a strong proponent of ignoring any information regarding environmental issues, []etc.,[/ul] [/li]then I think I will have to disregard your suggestion as not really worth my time.

Years ago I voiced the observation that he is not stupid and that he is not malicious, however, he is incredibly intellectually lazy and makes no effort to understand any situation beyond the perspective of the typical radio call-in audience. That is a very scary person to have wielding that much power and I see no reason to provide “support” so that I can be condemned by people outside this country or by future generations for failing to oppose such a bad example of power wielded poorly.

14

I thought it was just a hair over the number of voters who chose him, a number considerably smaller than half the American population, even discounting those without the franchise.

Anyway, as another Canadian, I don’t know what the OP is yakking about. We have our “question period” where the Prime Minister is subjected to direct verbal attacks from other members of Parliament, something I’d kinda like to see the president subjected to. The only edge we have over the Americans is that executive-bashing is not a relentless bloodsport played by the sanctimonious and self-righteous.

It wouldn’t be polite.

As a minor side note, I’m finally getting a chance to watch Showgirls on cable. I’m entirely underwhelmed thus far.

15

Because it’s fun. And because most times he and his pack of vultures need to be ragged on.

I can’t play sports or understand its rules. I hate soap operas and I always forget when American Idol comes on. But politics, I can dig. Being able to talk shit about our elected officials is my past time. It keeps me connected to other people and gives me something to look forward to when I turn on the TV. I gain…entertainment.

I don’t think people should respect authority just because those people are authority. They should feel brave enough to rag on leaders they utterly detest. What do they gain? What do you gain when you complain about anyone? Release. A moment to vent and to feel superior. Everyone needs to be able to do this every once and a while. Some people choose to rant about their next-door neighbors or their stupid coworkers. Others choose to rant about the person who actually has power over the world. Which group is more productive?

Why should this exclude him from well-deserved scorn and derision? Do you think anyone should be ragged on? If your boss was screwing the company left and right, wouldn’t you rag on him? Unless you’re saying no one should be ridiculed, I don’t get your point here.

He’s not a shmooze like me. If he were like me, he’d be making less than $40,000 a year, driving around in a 15-year-old car, and worrying about upcoming job interviews. People from Bush’s circumstances are not “schmoozes”. They aren’t necessarily evil or bad, but they aren’t like “you and me”. That’s a lie. The two of us are pawns. Bush is in the back row. And if Bush ain’t in the back row, I’m afraid to see who is.

Enough people thought that Sanjaya was the best choice for American Idol. I don’t respect the president just because he got elected. Lots of fools get elected. A lot of evil folks get elected. Again, I don’t know what your point is.

What priviledge? Voting? Ya’ll don’t vote in Canada? Wow.

Do I think his name is really Damien and that he worships the Dark Lord? No. But do I think he has the best interest of this country in mind when he makes decisions? No. I think he only knows how it’s like to be rich. He can only sympathize with people who are rich. He doesn’t represent the best of our country–only the powerful. So yeah, he has malevolent intent sometimes.

I did not choose him the first or second time. If I can’t rag on the person I did not want–hell, voted against!–then what the hell can I do? Simmer quietly in my juices of rage while everyone sings “Bush is God”?

I’m not going to pretend to like Bush just for the sake of “unity”. The president’s not concerned about building a consensus, and he’s supposed to be our role model. Blame him for the liberals’ scorn you’re so tired of.

16

I dunno, after I read this excellent post by Kimstu, I have lost all interest in TFD’s thread. Obviously bashing of political figures is only OK when he does it.

17

Seems remarkably similar to 'Humper’s “The President deserves respect just because he’s the President” crap that lasted up until someone dug up one of his posts about Clinton.

Typical bullshit from a peabrain.

Shocking.

-Joe

18

Why don’t you go back to fantasizing about cheating on your wife with your teenage daughter’s friends, you damaged old bastard.

19

I opposed Bush in 2000, and again in 2004. And I had voted for his old man (the first time, anyway).

So there’s no way in hell that anyone is going to tell me that I now shouldn’t be critical of our turkey in chief as more and more evidence comes out, demonstrating the gall of this overprivileged underachiever in ignoring and even dismantling those things we as a people should hold most dear!

We Americans are finally becoming united! Liberals, libertarians, moderates, and the old style conservatives (of which I once counted myself until pushed out by social conservatives) are finally fed up. 70% of us are not happy with our president, and we’re supposed to shut up about it because of civility? Civility??!!

You’ll never bring that ship into port, Vanderdecken.

20

My personal satisfaction. Who doesn’t like insulting the people he/she hates ? And there’s nothing good that can honestly be said about him anyway, so telling me to stop ragging on him is telling me to shut up or lie.

A healthy disrespect for murderous, tyrannical, corrupt, idiotic, fundamentalist, dishonest, wealthy, aristocratic scum.

No. He’s my enemy, and he’s a pampered aristocrat, an idiot and a loon who’s been handed everything all his life. If he hadn’t, his “going as high as he can go” would likely have consisted of street begging or prison.

He’s not at all like me; in his own words he’s a member of the “haves and have mores”. As well, he’s ridden roughshod over the Constitution and he is an enemy of the free world, along with everywhere else. And if the “free world” can’t choose who leads it, how are they free ?

Most certainly. And so do his puppet masters.

I most certainly did not choose him even once, and the honesty of those election is still debatable. As for the people who did, they are scum as well.

I despise the people after what they have done and supported; we’re better off divided, especially when the other side are scum and lunatics; and I’m not interested in trying to be nice to people I loathe.

The media is a collection of right win toadies, for the most part.

Worship the Dark Lord ? No. IS the Dark Lord ? Well . . . no. That would be Cheney; Bush is more of a Gollum.