Help needed against racist argument.

Factual Questions
1

Hi. My Chinese friend sent me a diatribe this past weekend that had so many misconceptions in it that I did not know where to begin in answering him. I did my best but he still did not believe me. The most disturbing part was the racism. Here is a quote from him:
“Blacks (Africans) are born with gifts in athletics and music, West Europeans (English and French) are born with strong values in rules and laws, and East Asians (Chinese, Japanese and Koreans) are born with strong appreciation for education and learning.
Different races have different strengths and shortcomings so that we have lines of culture, creed and nation. However, some race like American Indian and Australian indigenous population did not have the attributes which allowed them to compete in an industrialized world so that their kindom gradually faded away from the stage of history. The current Mexican illegal immigrants are mostly descent of American Indians whose culture lacks appreciation for education and values of rules and laws.”

I tried to argue that current scientific thought does not agree that there are distinct races. I also told him that differences (where true) were cultural. He shot back with this:

“I found your argument about scientific proof of “non-race” quite informative. However I am still not convinced. If genes are not varied by races, how do you explain most basketball stars, track and field athletes, and most rappers are Blacks, most engineers and scientists are Whites, and most school nerds are Asians?”

Can someone here give me a line of reasoning and some scientific cites about lack of biological races that refute this?

A long time ago a Doper made a website that laid out very well the evidence against there being distinct races. Is that still around?

2

[QUOTE=by-tor]
“I found your argument about scientific proof of “non-race” quite informative. However I am still not convinced. If genes are not varied by races, how do you explain most basketball stars, track and field athletes, and most rappers are Blacks, most engineers and scientists are Whites, and most school nerds are Asians?”

Can someone here give me a line of reasoning and some scientific cites about lack of biological races that refute this?
[/QUOTE]

Aside from providing more science and explaining why those things all have environmental reasons for being, what can you say?

Yes, most elite NBA players are black. Most elite NHL players are Canadian, so are Canadians biologically advantaged in playing hockey? Canadians aren’t even a race; does Jarome Iginla look anything like Sidney Crosby? Most elite ping pong players are Chinese. Are Chinese biologically programmed to play ping pong? Most elite cross country skiiers are from northern Europe. Most elite sumo wrestlers are Japanese. A remarkable number of superior cricket players are from southern Asia, yet virtually none are American. but Americans dominate baseball, along with a truly amazing number of Caribbeans and some Asians; there are almost no Europeans in baseball. Is there a cricket gene? A baseball gene? I mean, it’s kind of a stupid argument, isn’t it?

In terms of “Track and field,” what sport is he talking about? “Track and field” is a lot of sports, some dominated by blacks, some by whites. Sprinting is dominated by blacks - but overwhelmingly, they’re only blacks from North America and the Caribbean, with just a few outliers from west and southwest Africa and England. Where are the elite Somalian sprinters? Long distance running, on the other hand, is dominated by Africans from the east and north parts of the continent (many are not white) and there are virtually no American or Caribbean blacks at all in the upper tiers of the sport. Other track and field sports such as discus, javelin, etc. show little racial swing at all.

Are most scientists white? Is that even true? What about all the scientists in Japan? China? India?

Are most school nerds Asian? And what’s “Asian”?

Not one of his arguments stands up to even the most basic level of scrutiny. If he’s determined to be a racist, don’t bother trying to change him. It likely won’t work.

3

I’m not sure I completely agree that science doesn’t recognize race distinctions. I’ve heard of many health and medical conditions being considerably more prevalent in some races over others, which would seem to hint that there ARE in fact differences besides the pigment in our skin. What one wants to speculate further is up to their mindset, though.

4

That trap that you have to avoid here is to go too extreme in either direction. There aren’t any clean racial distinctions. The groups that they try to include are way too broad to have much in common to mean anything scientifically. However, there are such things as populations and these groups may have a higher or lower preponderance of some traits(s) than other populations. Populations are usually rather small in relative terms but there can also be traits that cluster at a regional level and beyond.

One problem people have with the counter-arguments is that they refuse to disbelieve what they are seeing with their own eyes. Just as an example that is not proven but may be true, people see Kenyans and Ethiopians win marathon after marathon while other people just strive to make the top ten behind them. People tend to translate that into “blacks are better at long distance running”. We can be fairly certain that blacks are not better at long distance running overall because the groups in Africa tend to be related less to each other than they are to other groups. Africa has the highest amount of human diversity on the planet. There may be a subset of African blacks that really do have traits at the far end of the curve that are advantageous to long distance running but that doesn’t say anything about other African groups or even regular individuals within the group in question.

There is also a dirty little trick that I have noticed in these arguments. People often focus on the Out Of Africa hypothesis on the front end and claim that a migration from Africa tens of thousands of years ago would not have given enough time for much genetic diversity in present human groups. That is likely true but the fact remains that humans that went on to populate Europe, Asia, the Americas, Australia and beyond were the results of a rather tight population bottle-neck that moved out of Africa and that can cause very quick genetic drift. Other human groups evolved there over a few million years and never left.

5

[QUOTE=BrandonR]
I’m not sure I completely agree that science doesn’t recognize race distinctions. I’ve heard of many health and medical conditions being considerably more prevalent in some races over others, which would seem to hint that there ARE in fact differences besides the pigment in our skin. What one wants to speculate further is up to their mindset, though.
[/QUOTE]

These are genetic distinctions you’re talking about. “Race” is sort of an artificial concept that we’ve created to refer to certain phenotypes (traits) passed on through genes.

6

[QUOTE=by-tor]
Hi. My Chinese friend sent me a diatribe this past weekend that had so many misconceptions in it that I did not know where to begin in answering him. I did my best but he still did not believe me. The most disturbing part was the racism. Here is a quote from him:
“Blacks (Africans) are born with gifts in athletics and music, West Europeans (English and French) are born with strong values in rules and laws, and East Asians (Chinese, Japanese and Koreans) are born with strong appreciation for education and learning.
Different races have different strengths and shortcomings so that we have lines of culture, creed and nation. However, some race like American Indian and Australian indigenous population did not have the attributes which allowed them to compete in an industrialized world so that their kindom gradually faded away from the stage of history. The current Mexican illegal immigrants are mostly descent of American Indians whose culture lacks appreciation for education and values of rules and laws.”

I tried to argue that current scientific thought does not agree that there are distinct races. I also told him that differences (where true) were cultural. He shot back with this:

“I found your argument about scientific proof of “non-race” quite informative. However I am still not convinced. If genes are not varied by races, how do you explain most basketball stars, track and field athletes, and most rappers are Blacks, most engineers and scientists are Whites, and most school nerds are Asians?”

Can someone here give me a line of reasoning and some scientific cites about lack of biological races that refute this?

A long time ago a Doper made a website that laid out very well the evidence against there being distinct races. Is that still around?
I tried to argue that current scientific thought does not agree that there are distinct races. I also told him that differences (where true) were cultural. He shot back with this:

“I found your argument about scientific proof of “non-race” quite informative. However I am still not convinced. If genes are not varied by races, how do you explain most basketball stars, track and field athletes, and most rappers are Blacks, most engineers and scientists are Whites, and most school nerds are Asians?”

Can someone here give me a line of reasoning and some scientific cites about lack of biological races that refute this?

A long time ago a Doper made a website that laid out very well the evidence against there being distinct races. Is that still around?
[/QUOTE]

This is headed straight for GD, where it has been discussed already.

It is probably more straightforward to talk about population pools rather than “races” per se. There are those who try to insist populations cannot be adequately defined and that we are all the same except some minor phenotypic characteristics. There are those who consider this patently absurd.

Certainly there is marked overrepresentation of population pools within different fields, as your friend points out.

I think it’s unlikely arguing about it will produce much movement on either side. It is patently obvious to me that there must be genetic, fundamental differences among population pools to explain the differences I see in cultures, standardized tests, and performances across a broad range of fields. To others, every single disproportionate representation is easily explained with a pool of explanations drawing from geographic, cultural, historical and external root causes.

The whole thing gets messy and inflammatory too fast for my taste. I take some solace in the fact that better understanding the human genome will lay some of the argumentativeness to rest. We can accept what we are and just get on with being the family of mankind.

I doubt you will change your friend’s mind.

As an aside, the inflammatory term ‘racist’ has no bearing on what is true. Only science will elucidate what the differences are, not labels of assorted degrees of political correctness.

7

If he is chinese, just find the chinese examples of regional stereotypes. Even for a country as small as Venezuela, all regions have their attached stereotypes. Andean are slow witted, llaneros are lazy, Valencians are snotty, Margaritas are fast talkers, etc. I am sure that in China, there must be regions with reputations for being smart, stupid, good workers, lazy, better athletes, etc. Have him explain those.

8

A sense of history would help your racist friend realize just how narrow and time-bound such a statement is. Fifty years ago Finns dominated long-distance running and school nerds were stereotypically Jewish.

Just take the history of boxing. At various times Irish, Jews, blacks, and Hispanics dominated the sport. Today all the heavyweight crowns are held by Russians. Is there a genetic link? Not at all. Boxing is a brutal way to claw oneself out of poverty and only those with few other alternatives would go into it. The rise of a ethnic group in boxing is purely cultural.

That’s the way to explain every single one of the claims. People go into certain fields either because the best opportunities are there or because other venues are blocked to them. Jews went into movies at the beginning of the 20th century because they were considered too low class for gentiles to bother with. Only after they made the industry a success was it taken over.

Women were blocked from most occupations until recent years. How many woman doctors were there even fifty years ago? Today I believe more than half of medical school students are female. Did their genes suddenly kick in or were they held back by society?

Asians were considered inferior by most whites 100 years ago. Today they have a stereotype of braininess. A genetic change to one-third of earth or just a difference in cultural importance of education making itself manifest in a group too small and too oppressed to be noticed before in this country.

There are always more differences within a group than among groups. That’s why scientists say that race doesn’t exist. There are no boundaries that can be fixed. Every trait is a spectrum. Invisible lines drawn on the earth to indicate countries don’t change humanity. We’re all the same inside. Only cultural differences exist, and those change every moment. Same with stereotypes. That’s why stereotypes are so ugly. People think they mean something basic but they are the most superficial and meaningless of traits.

9

Lets not get all technical about this, if your friend does not have the common sense to recognize that we are all members of one race, and that all differences are imposed as we grow, then perhaps you dont really need him as a friend anyway.
Let him just carry on in his own mixed up little world. Eventually all these bigoted,
prejudiced, wastes of a brain will die off. :wink:

10

[QUOTE=Shagnasty]
There is also a dirty little trick that I have noticed in these arguments. People often focus on the Out Of Africa hypothesis on the front end and claim that a migration from Africa tens of thousands of years ago would not have given enough time for much genetic diversity in present human groups. That is likely true but the fact remains that humans that went on to populate Europe, Asia, the Americas, Australia and beyond were the results of a rather tight population bottle-neck that moved out of Africa and that can cause very quick genetic drift. Other human groups evolved there over a few million years and never left.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with most of your post, but this part has me puzzled. Although only a subset of those people in Africa left about 60k years ago to populate the rest of the globe, it’s not like there were other independent groups that had a separate evolutionary history for millions of years. I doubt that you meant to say that, but that’s the way your post reads. We also have to take into account that gene flow between African groups and non-African groups occurred more less continuously after that.

11

[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase]
There are always more differences within a group than among groups. That’s why scientists say that race doesn’t exist.
[/QUOTE]

In The Ancestor’s Tale, Richard Dawkins notes that this is a non-sequitur.

He then goes on to give examples, such as: If you learn that Suzy is Chinese, it reduces your uncertainty as to her hair color, and will increase your estimate of the chance that her eyes have an epicanthic fold.

12

CJOK, despite disagreeing with my friend on this I still care a lot about him and would not give up his friendship. He is very smart in general. I would like to find some cites to back up my argument, so I can respond more convincingly.

13

[QUOTE=Xema]
In The Ancestor’s Tale, Richard Dawkins notes that this is a non-sequitur.
He then goes on to give examples, such as: If you learn that Suzy is Chinese, it reduces your uncertainty as to her hair color, and will increase your estimate of the chance that her eyes have an epicanthic fold.
[/QUOTE]

You’re misunderstanding both sides of the argument, I think.

Nobody disputes that most Asians have epicanthic folds. But not all do. Nobody disputes that most Africans have dark skins. But their descendents who have intermarried with whites may or may not have dark skins. And Australian aborigines who have dark skins may not be any more closely related to Africans than many other lighter-skinned groups.

There are markers that indicate genetic similarities, true. There are other markers that do not. The mutation for lactose tolerance is found mostly in whites, but can also be found in every society on earth. That marker may give information that can lead to a probability, but it is a cultural probability.

I haven’t read that particular book. I did find extracts from it, including this one:

http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=6467

In another extract, Dawkins does explore the suggestion that racial markers may have selection status but as a cultural marker. Something very different.

The modern consensus is that race is indeed a cultural rather than genetic distinction and Dawkins is not disagreeing with that. He’s offering a nuanced interpretation of that as a speculation. Maybe that speculation will someday make it into the consensus. It hasn’t yet.

14

[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase]
The modern consensus is that race is indeed a cultural rather than genetic distinction and Dawkins is not disagreeing with that. He’s offering a nuanced interpretation of that as a speculation.
[/QUOTE]

I think he is disagreeing, rather plainly.

Dawkins mentions that “modern consensus,” attributing it to R.C. Lewontin (in a 1972 paper). His statement is: “Lewontin’s view of race has become near-universal orthodoxy in scientific circles.” He goes on at length to explain quite specifically how he disagrees with Lewontin. His language isn’t that of a “nuanced interpretation” - he maintains that Lewontin’s belief that “racial classification is … of virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance” is provably wrong, and he offers the proof.

His full discussion is certainly too long to present here. But The Ancestor’s Tale is widely available and this appears in the chapter entitled “The Grasshopper’s Tale.”

15

I don’t buy the idea that there aren’t any genetic differences between races, but I definitely think that the culture you come from has a hundred thousand times more impact on whether you value education, the law, or physical activity than your race does.

16

[QUOTE=by-tor]
CJOK, despite disagreeing with my friend on this I still care a lot about him and would not give up his friendship. He is very smart in general. I would like to find some cites to back up my argument, so I can respond more convincingly.
[/QUOTE]

Your friend is the one making the assertions. Ask him to provide factual evidence that backs up his claims. What he’s got are stereotypes, observations that can be explained in a variety of ways, and statements that are just plain wrong (see variety of examples in this thread). Falls way short of “proof”.

17

[QUOTE=by-tor]
A long time ago a Doper made a website that laid out very well the evidence against there being distinct races. Is that still around?
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think anyone answered this request. I don’t know if this is the site you’re remembering, but gives the argument, scientific citations, and links to a bunch of SDMB threads discussing race.

18

[QUOTE=Tyrrell McAllister]
I don’t think anyone answered this request. I don’t know if this is the site you’re remembering, but gives the argument, scientific citations, and links to a bunch of SDMB threads discussing race.
[/QUOTE]
That is probably the page requested. It was created by Doper eponymous (who still lurks among us, although without posting frenetically).

In the intervening six or so years, we have had a lot more threads on race, but some of the basic information is still relevant.

19

If all school nerds are Asian, does that mean the 10% of nerds to which I proudly belonged back in school in Spain were all adopted from China and never knew it?

Boy will Mom be surprised!

20

For a fair rebuttal of the theories about Amerinds and Aborigines “not having what it takes”, have him read Jarred Diamond’s “Guns, Germs and Steel” (the book itself is referenced at the bottom of the Wikipedia synopsis to which I linked)

For the rest – lots of good suggestions further above. You may want to point out to him that “Jews” (who are sometimes considered a race) include a fair smattering of converts, so their offspring are often, genetically, “non-” or at least “semi-Jewish.” Ask him if he thinks these children will or will not follow Jewish stereotypes. This will likely cause a “DoesNotComputeException” that will stop his mouth from shooting off, at least for a while…

Oh, and…

[QUOTE=Nava]
If all school nerds are Asian, does that mean the 10% of nerds to which I proudly belonged back in school in Spain were all adopted from China and never knew it?

Boy will Mom be surprised!
[/QUOTE]

Methinks dad might be even more surprised! :wink: