If your baby is crying...DO SOMETHING!!

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Elza B

I haven't been able to tune it out in 10 months. I have no idea how other parents do it.

It takes a year to 18 months in my experience. You know you have it when you see your 2 year old fall, get up looks around to see if you are watching, and when he sees you are, he then start to wail. If you laugh at that point, you got it.

As a parent I could tune those cries out. Now that my kids are adults they are like nails on a chalkboard. (GET OFF MY LAWN!)

When my kids were little, I would not let them cry in a store. Either I comforted them, or removed them. I understood that a baby crying is different when you don't have small children. When they got older each of them pitched a fit in a store exactly one time. In both cases I took them out to the car and plopped them into their car seat. And I let them cry and carry on. After about 5 minutes they would shut up. At that point I would ask if they were ready to go back inside and act like a gentleman/lady?
Un-huh came the reply.
They never did it again.
FWIW I used to get compliments on how well behaved my kids were. Funny how that works.

[Hung Mung]

Originally Posted by Captain_C

It is a simple test here people. If I walked into a Borders and went "AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!" as loud as I could, would I be asked to leave? Yes, yes I would. I expect others who did this to be asked to leave as well. So why should a certain subset of people be exempt from this? Age discrimination is wrong and, in some cases, illegal.

It's late and I'm quite a bit foggy. Are you joking?

[Captain_C]

Originally Posted by Hung Mung

It's late and I'm quite a bit foggy. Are you joking?

No, not in the slightest. Couldn't stand children when I was one, can't stand them now. Too noisy and unpredictable.

I am a firm believer in courtesy, a tenant of which is to not be a bother to others in public places. Children are some of the worst offenders of this. My mother refused to take me anywhere except school and relatives' houses until I could behave myself in a civilized manner (about the age of 6 if her stories and my memory are accurate).

[OtakuLoki]

Instead of opening up another Pit thread for this, let me share here.

Went to dinner last night with my parents to a local chain resturant. While we were there a family with at least three children came in. The parents were... oblivious I think is the most charitable term for it. I noticed the kids when two of them ran by our table shrieking at each other, while the third ran up another aisle in the seating area. What made things worse, to my mind, was that there was no adult trying desperately to catch these little monsters (With all apologies to The Monster) nor even making a scene to try to get their spawn to imitate a poorly behaving dog, at least.

Given that I saw the ankle biters run past the resturant's kitchen doors twice, I think, I believe that the manager on-duty was very lax to have not given the parents involved an ultimatum: Attempt to control your children, or leave. These were not "cute kids" doing harmless fun - they were an active hazard, and should not be tolerated.

Unlike some people in this thread I'm not one to insist that children be simply minature adults whenever their out in public. I recognize that there will be times that any child strains even the most competent and concerned parent's ablility to control it. But there is a world of difference between a child that has temporarily become uncontrolled and one that has been given license to run wild. One thing is annoying and forgivable, the other is dangerous and unacceptable.

[eleanorigby]

I either must have had exceptional children or I am better at this parenting thing than I thought.

3 kids: no tantrums/screaming in any store, ever. But going to the store with Mommy was an event. Going to Borders meant that the kids were prepped ahead of time; issues were addressed as they came up. If daughter had to go to the ladie's room, then son had to come with-this was understood from the get go. There was no screaming or fuss. This was when they were toddlers and preschoolers.


As for babies in Borders--the one here is very quiet and it's nice. I didn't shop when nap time was imminent, so the crying to drop off didn't happen. My kids didn't use binkies, so no possible crying there (just a fact, I'm not anti-pacifier), but I did immediately pay attention whenever they would cry. They almost never cried in public due to this policy, IMO. At home I could and would (sometimes) let them cry it out. In public, I think those around us deserve more consideration. Yes, kids cry--that's why they come with adults. I am hidebound enough to think that babies and kids shouldn't cry in McDs or the grocery store! I don't go to McDs because I don't like the food OR screaming, misbehaving kids. Fun in playland is one thing-walking on tables (which I have witnessed in McDs) is quite another...

I probably wouldn't have been giving the woman dirty looks, but I would have been concerned about the baby. Sure, she knows her kid better than I do, but I think she waited too long. I would have done things differently. Is she consigned to Bad Parent Hell? Nah.

[Dangerosa]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

I either must have had exceptional children or I am better at this parenting thing than I thought.

Lucky - NEVER EVER EVER take credit for this sort of thing. Parenting karma is seriously bad juju. You say "I've great at potty training kids, my first trained at 18 months, my second at 13 months - I have a system, if you need help give me a call" and the gods will strike you down by presenting number three, a four year old who pulls poop from his diaper to fingerpaint on the walls. You take credit for your high school kids wonderful grades - and one of them drops out of college to sell juice and pot out of a VW bus going from music festival to music festival. Or maybe you are my dad, who gets three kids he can brag about, until one ends up in and out of rehab in her 30s.

I have one girlfriend and a cousin who both have the same pattern. Two children who were never any trouble - why do people have these naughty children, the parents must be at fault - then the third came along and THEN they understood why that mother was standing over a screaming child in Target - now they were the mother standing over the screaming child in Target making the decision "is this a two minute thing and I can actually get detergent so we have clean underwear tomorrow, or is this a twenty minute thing and we will all be turning the underwear inside out."

We have one that had a single tantrum - didn't work and he's really never pulled it again. He gets cranky sometimes (he's almost nine now) and a little whiney. And he sulks, but he isn't expressive in his moods.

His sister arrived expressive in her moods - doesn't matter if its joy or anger or sadness - she expresses it. In the middle of Barnes and Noble, sure. At seven, she has gotten much better at control, but we've removed her from a store or two.

On the logistics of removing a screaming child from a store: sometimes, the tantrumee physically needs to be picked up. And they will kick and flail. In any store or restaurant where there are a lot of people or its crowded, it may be better to stand back and let it happen. We only got ourselves into that situation once - a restaurant too croweded to remove a screaming little girl without risking some getting kicked in the head. I haven't tried it, but I expect Child Protection Services would get called if I used a straightjacket.

When life was running ideally well with my two, I seldom took them out to places like like this. Groceries were delivered at our house for two years. I'd run to Target when Brainiac4 could watch them or my mother was over. When I did take them places (because you do have to socialize them by removing them from your own home, its part of how they grow up and become real human beings), I'd mood gage them (especially my daughter) and make sure they weren't going to have low blood sugar induced problems. But I did either misjudge or get myself into a situation twice which involved removing the kids from the store.

I'm lucky, I have a lot of flexibility in my life with my kids. Daycare, so I can drop by Barnes and Noble and pick them up a little late. My mother and mother in law in town, a husband who is involved in raising our children and doesn't need to be talked into babysitting. Not everyone does.

If you don't want to be inconvienced by kids, adopt a kid unfriendly schedule yourself. Boarders/B&N are open pretty late and the kiddie crowd clears out after seven (my B&N has a lego table, so it isn't exactly designed to be a kid free place - this isn't like taking your kids to rated R movies or restaurants with tableclothes that don't have chicken fingers on the menu). 12 - 3 tends to be pretty little kid free (though babies are portable and sleep more often) due to napping schedules. The reality of society however is that some parents need to take their kids places (and kids need to go places or they don't learn how to behave), that kids are uncontrollable to some extent, that kids do not stop crying because you want them to and that even the best parents occationally have a baby that cries in public.

[eleanorigby]

True enough, Dangerosa!

But as for lil kids and babies in stores, I got that covered! ("baby" is now nine, so...)

[Wile E]

Originally Posted by OtakuLoki

Instead of opening up another Pit thread for this, let me share here.

Went to dinner last night with my parents to a local chain resturant. While we were there a family with at least three children came in. The parents were... oblivious I think is the most charitable term for it. I noticed the kids when two of them ran by our table shrieking at each other, while the third ran up another aisle in the seating area. What made things worse, to my mind, was that there was no adult trying desperately to catch these little monsters (With all apologies to The Monster) nor even making a scene to try to get their spawn to imitate a poorly behaving dog, at least.

Given that I saw the ankle biters run past the resturant's kitchen doors twice, I think, I believe that the manager on-duty was very lax to have not given the parents involved an ultimatum: Attempt to control your children, or leave. These were not "cute kids" doing harmless fun - they were an active hazard, and should not be tolerated.
...

And if the kids had run into a server and spilled food and broken dishes the server would have been yelled at by the parents for almost hurting their poor babies.

I went to a restaurant with some family members several years ago. We were all adults. There was a table nearby with kids that screamed, threw food, got up and ran around. We could not hold a conversation they were so loud. My sister and I also had a bit of wine so we commented to the server about how they needed a children and non-children section in addition to the smoking and non-smoking sections (this was before smoking was banned). I think someone did go over and ask them to keep their children from running around as it was a hazard. We also made a point to put this on the comment card provided at the table. We got sent a card in the mail good for a free appetizer. We went back again to use our coupons and made sure to request not to be seated by families with small children.

So, in a restaurant setting, definitely go ahead and complain to the management.
They are probably just waiting for another customer to complain so they will feel justified in saying something to the offenders and you might get some free food!

[Cat Whisperer]

Originally Posted by Wile E

<snip>we commented to the server about how they needed a children and non-children section in addition to the smoking and non-smoking sections<snip>

My husband and I have been joking around about that for years. We don't have kids, we are only exposed to kids a couple times a year, and we have very little tolerance for babies and kids screaming and acting up (with the note here that we have realistic tolerance levels - we don't make any fuss in McDonald's, because we expect out of control kids there. We get a whole lot more bent out of shape when kids are screaming in our local pub or an expensive restaurant that is obviously not a family restaurant.) We are both old enough that we remember being raised differently than is the current style, too - kids were very much the junior family members when we were young, and we knew it. The behaviours that kids get away with now would not have even been considered an option when we were young.

[nashiitashii]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

What I don't understand is the women who ignore their kid while he is pitching a screaming tantrum. I have seen this three times in the last six months...on the floor, kicking and screaming, everything. Lady, YOU may be used to it and know it will blow over. But that is the time to pick your kid up bodily and haul him from the store. Kids need to know that is not acceptable.

These weren't young kids, either. At least 6 or 7.

I've seen (and heard) these kids before. I spent the past year in an area that seemed to be teeming with parents who didn't teach their kids the "indoor voice" and who would ignore their kids with the exception of buying them things and stuffing them full of bad food. I can count on one hand and have fingers left over for the number of times I had been in a Target up here where the screaming tantrum or the lack of indoor voice for conversation was an issue; in the last location, it was a regular part of going to Target, regardless of the time of day or day of the week. Now, there's a huge difference between a small bit of whining and crying (the "I'm bored/hungry/could use a nap/wanting out of my stroller" kind), which tends to not last for more than a couple of minutes and rarely hits the upper range of screaming ability, and then there's the fits that require moving the kid out of the area and fixing the issue. The latter was fairly common in that area (temper tantrums are really popular among the spoiled kids), and outside of that time period, I honestly don't hear it often at all.

The worst experience of the screaming fit by far has been the occasion where my SO and I went to Olive Garden and someone had brought a smaller baby. We don't know how big it was, other than it was pre-verbal and VERY upset. Across the restaurant, this baby screamed for over 20 minutes with no cessation. It had screamed so much that it tired itself out and grew hoarse. We asked the waiter to check to see if the baby was okay, if he knew where it was coming from. Out of the 40 minutes we were in the restaurant on a rare occasion, 20 minutes of it was spent trying to talk over the screaming that was drowning out everyone's conversations. Yes, Olive Garden isn't exactly a nice restaurant, but when that's what you can afford for a "nice night out," it certainly ruins the dining experience to have that go on after 7pm.

Featherlou, I can understand your note of kids' behavior differing. My mom had me when she was almost forty, and I got raised much the same way as my brothers who'd been born in the late sixties/early seventies. I find myself appalled at kids that are my age and younger all the time, as I wonder what the hell happened in the slight generational gap between their parents' childhood and my own. I nearly asked a salesclerk at a clothing store what she was doing on the phone chatting with her friend while at work. (The conversation was a typical "what are you doing? I'm bored and need someone to chat to" things.) I really don't understand how on earth anyone thinks it's okay to be so obvious about trying to avoid doing your job.
"In my day, we were bored at work and we liked it! Get off my lawn!"

[miss elizabeth]

Originally Posted by Captain_C

No, not in the slightest. Couldn't stand children when I was one, can't stand them now. Too noisy and unpredictable.

I am a firm believer in courtesy, a tenant of which is to not be a bother to others in public places. Children are some of the worst offenders of this. My mother refused to take me anywhere except school and relatives' houses until I could behave myself in a civilized manner (about the age of 6 if her stories and my memory are accurate).

Fuck you, seriously. You're an asshole, and it's a very good thing you never continued your genetic line. The only comfort I get from your existence is the knowledge that when you die you haven't left any other little assholes around to carry on your nasty attitude.

And I have absolutely no problem with child free people, but I'll make an exception for you. I hope you grow old alone, with no family or loved ones to care for your bitter mean ass, and you rot for many years in a nursing home filled with screaming, crying, pants shitting, seniors. And I hope you descend in senility, and become one yourself. And I hope that when you do, you never see anything outside of the depressing four walls of your room ever again, because we certainly wouldn't want to inconvenience anyone with your less-than-stellar manners.

[Sublight]

Originally Posted by ?x0HOLLiSTER0x?

What bothered me was that the mom continued to push the stroller. She did nothing! It wasn't until the baby's cry reached that ear-shattering wail that babies learn to master around age 2 months, that she picked him up out of the stroller and comforted him.

This is exactly what I would do. 9 times out of 10, pushing the stroller more is what gets my son (10 months) to calm down again and usually drop off to sleep pretty quickly. Only when it reached the shriek level would it be clear that moving around wasn't sufficient.

[DiosaBellissima]

Originally Posted by miss elizabeth

Fuck you, seriously. You're an asshole, and it's a very good thing you never continued your genetic line. The only comfort I get from your existence is the knowledge that when you die you haven't left any other little assholes around to carry on your nasty attitude.

And I have absolutely no problem with child free people, but I'll make an exception for you. I hope you grow old alone, with no family or loved ones to care for your bitter mean ass, and you rot for many years in a nursing home filled with screaming, crying, pants shitting, seniors. And I hope you descend in senility, and become one yourself. And I hope that when you do, you never see anything outside of the depressing four walls of your room ever again, because we certainly wouldn't want to inconvenience anyone with your less-than-stellar manners.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but you're completely justified in that reaction to someone suggesting that children should be taught to maintain a specific level of social courtesy. Why yes, that was quite the logical reaction you just had right there.

[descamisado]

OMG, I'm experiencing it now. I'm at the library and there's a baby nearby who' making fairly noisy fussing sounds. I'm kinda hearing, kinda not. It happens.

But if that rugrat starts shrieking and thrashing around, he/she is in for a world of hurt.

The bigger problem is the guy sitting next to me with his music on so loud, the sound is deafening me and I can discern subtle hints that this particular Green Day song was influenced by Grieg with bits of Pachabel woven in. Good luck, son, with your ear drums in a few years.

P.S. Does anybody know why the OP was banned and what the username means?

[Swallowed My Cellphone]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

What I don't understand is the women who ignore their kid while he is pitching a screaming tantrum. I have seen this three times in the last six months...on the floor, kicking and screaming, everything. Lady, YOU may be used to it and know it will blow over. But that is the time to pick your kid up bodily and haul him from the store. Kids need to know that is not acceptable.

I'm not particularly fond of kids and have very little patience for them, but for the tantrum that you describe, when it's that over-the-top, often it's best to let the whirlwind just blow itself out.

If an 8-year-old is kicking and flailing wildly, a parent trying to pick him up will just end up with a fat lip. It may be as annoying as shit for bystanders as its happening, but that kind of fury extinguishes itself by its own might (takes a lot of pent up energy to explode like that). Better just let the powderkeg blow, then when the kid is rational again, kill it.




Okay, okay, I'm kidding. I meant you can discipline him/her later when he/she has calmed down and is rational enough to appreciate and understand why the behavior is unacceptable. During the tantrum however, trying to usher a kid out the door would be like trying to hug the Tazmanian Devil form the Bugs Bunny show.

[Dangerosa]

Originally Posted by Swallowed My Cellphone

I'm not particularly fond of kids and have very little patience for them, but for the tantrum that you describe, when it's that over-the-top, often it's best to let the whirlwind just blow itself out.

If an 8-year-old is kicking and flailing wildly, a parent trying to pick him up will just end up with a fat lip. It may be as annoying as shit for bystanders as its happening, but that kind of fury extinguishes itself by its own might (takes a lot of pent up energy to explode like that). Better just let the powderkeg blow, then when the kid is rational again, kill it.




Okay, okay, I'm kidding. I meant you can discipline him/her later when he/she has calmed down and is rational enough to appreciate and understand why the behavior is unacceptable. During the tantrum however, trying to usher a kid out the door would be like trying to hug the Tazmanian Devil form the Bugs Bunny show.

Pretty much. Some child psychologists will recommend just ignoring it. Even in a public place and even if they can be removed safely. If its being done to get attention, or to get out of a shopping trip your kid doesn't want to be on - then its possible that the WORSE thing you can do for the kid is to remove them from the place. It may be the best thing for the other shoppers, but its a bad long term decision for them as well, since you don't want a teenager who thinks he or she can get what she wants by being naughty in public.

[miss elizabeth]

Originally Posted by DiosaBellissima

I don't have a dog in this fight, but you're completely justified in that reaction to someone suggesting that children should be taught to maintain a specific level of social courtesy. Why yes, that was quite the logical reaction you just had right there.

He didn't say children should be taught to maintain a specific level of social courtesy. He said:

Originally Posted by Captain_C

If I walked into a Borders and went "AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!" as loud as I could, would I be asked to leave? Yes, yes I would. I expect others who did this to be asked to leave as well. So why should a certain subset of people be exempt from this? Age discrimination is wrong and, in some cases, illegal.

And

Couldn't stand children when I was one, can't stand them now.

Ok?

Age discrimination is illegal?! You've gotta be fuckin kidding me. Allowing babies to occasionally cry in a store is NOT "Age Discrimination". Do we let babies vote? Or hold down jobs? Why not? Is that "Age Discrimination"? No, it isn't. It's a recognition of the fact that they are, oh yeah, babies.

So, again, Fuck You Captain_C, and DiosaBellissima, I've always liked you as a poster, so I'll assume you missed his first post. But if you didn't, and you agree with that retarded reasoning, fuck you too.

[hawksgirl]

What exactly is wrong with saying he doesn't like kids?

[miss elizabeth]

What, exactly, is wrong with saying he doesn't like black people?

[mswas]

Here's the deal I am willing to make, as my wife calls our little bundle of joy a 'tube-sausage' next to me.

I will do everything I can do to stop the baby from crying when she starts, but I do take her out to restaurants and will continue to do so. I never take her to the theater though.

[mswas]

Originally Posted by miss elizabeth

What, exactly, is wrong with saying he doesn't like black people?

Opinions should be illegal.

[Captain_C]

I'm tempted to post "I don't like black people" (not really) just to see if her head will explode.

[descamisado]

Originally Posted by Captain_C

I'm tempted to post "I don't like black people" (not really) just to see if her head will explode.

I think your post was a little over the top but her comparing your statement to "I don't like black people" was a little perplexing, to say the least.

miss elizabeth, I'm black and I see the difference (though being black is what qualifies me to see that difference).

[hawksgirl]

Seriously, we all have to like everyone now? I thought we just had to accept different people, not like them. If I have to start liking everyone I may as well kill myself now. The frustration wouldn't be worth it.

[miss elizabeth]

You don't have to like anyone. You can not like children, and I can not like you.

See how that works?

[miss elizabeth]

Originally Posted by 5-4-Fighting

I think your post was a little over the top but her comparing your statement to "I don't like black people" was a little perplexing, to say the least.

miss elizabeth, I'm black and I see the difference (though being black is what qualifies me to see that difference).

Explain the difference, please.

Judging a group of individuals like Captain_C did is bigoted and ignorant, whether the group is children, black people, redheads, whatever. You can do it, sure. And I can think you are a mean, stupid person.

[hawksgirl]

So there's nothing wrong with not liking kids. So why was that quoted as evidence of a bad attitude?

[Gorsnak]

Originally Posted by DiosaBellissima

I don't have a dog in this fight, but you're completely justified in that reaction to someone suggesting that children should be taught to maintain a specific level of social courtesy. Why yes, that was quite the logical reaction you just had right there.

He wasn't suggesting that children should be taught courtesy, etc. He was suggesting that infants should be held to the same behavioural standards as adults. While the level of venom in miss elizabeth's response might have been a tad over the top, it was an exceptionally idiotic statement she was responding to.

[Carol Stream]

Originally Posted by Dangerosa

The reality of society however is that some parents need to take their kids places (and kids need to go places or they don't learn how to behave), that kids are uncontrollable to some extent, that kids do not stop crying because you want them to and that even the best parents occationally have a baby that cries in public.

Why would any parents NEED (your word) to take their babies to Barnes & Noble? Or to restaurants above Chucky Cheese, or on airplanes, for that matter? I've even seen "parents" pushing strollers through Las Vegas casinos! WTF?

It may well be a generational difference, but when I was a kid, none of the above would have been even remotely imaginable.

[Marienee]

Originally Posted by Carol Stream

Why would any parents NEED (your word) to take their babies to Barnes & Noble? Or to restaurants above Chucky Cheese, or on airplanes, for that matter? I've even seen "parents" pushing strollers through Las Vegas casinos! WTF?

It may well be a generational difference, but when I was a kid, none of the above would have been even remotely imaginable.

I can answer one of those. I need to take my kids on an airplane (and have done since they were infants) because otherwise they would not be able to see their extended family or their other native country.

I suppose I could have avoided all this by not marrying or procreating with a person native to another continent, but that seems a little far to go to avoid offending people on airplanes.

[kittenblue]

I took the "age discrimination" comment to be a bit of sarcasm. Huge overreaction going on.

And I don't know why the OP was banned, but I believe the OP's user name indicates a love for the Hollister chain of over-priced clothing stores, which indicates our OP is probably under 21.

[Larry Borgia]

Originally Posted by miss elizabeth

Explain the difference, please.

Judging a group of individuals like Captain_C did is bigoted and ignorant, whether the group is children, black people, redheads, whatever. You can do it, sure. And I can think you are a mean, stupid person.

Huh? Are you saying that not wanting to have one's peacful bookshop browsing interrupted by a 115 decibel high pitched scream is the equivalent of racism?

[miss elizabeth]

Originally Posted by hawksgirl

So there's nothing wrong with not liking kids. So why was that quoted as evidence of a bad attitude?

There's nothing wrong with it, as in illegal type wrong. You're certainly free to have a dumb, bigoted opinion.

Also, my post was intentionally over the top, for fun Pit-style. But Captain_C is a dick.

[Morgyn]

Originally Posted by Swallowed My Cellphone

If an 8-year-old is kicking and flailing wildly, a parent trying to pick him up will just end up with a fat lip. It may be as annoying as shit for bystanders as its happening, but that kind of fury extinguishes itself by its own might (takes a lot of pent up energy to explode like that). Better just let the powderkeg blow, then when the kid is rational again, kill it.

Reminds me of a story a friend of mine told me about a friend of his*, who was grocery shopping with her daughter one day. Kid in the cart seat decides to pitch a fit because Momma didn't let her get something off a shelf. Nothing the mom did quieted the kid down (and the kid was at least 5 or so, so old enough, ostensibly, to know better). Mom, almost at her wits' end, looks around the store and thinks to herself, "there are other stores in town. I do not have to shop in this one ever again."

So the mom throws herself on the floor and starts pitching a temper tantrum of her own, complete with flailing arms and legs and shrieks. In under a minute, the kid is telling her to stop that! You're embarrassing me!

Reportedly, the kid never pitched a fit in public again.



*Like all FOAF stories, I have no way to verify its accuracy, but dang, it's a good one!

[levdrakon]

Originally Posted by miss elizabeth

What, exactly, is wrong with saying he doesn't like black people?

Bwa, ha, ha! You ignorant fuck. Just because you can't keep your thighs together and have probably been knocked up by half the guys in your town and now we're all stuck with the sixteen ill-bread fatherless screaming brats you plop out every nine months hardly equates to racism. Ooh, aren't you special, you can spread your legs, toss your heals to Jesus and oh, my gosh, nine months later you crapped out another kid. Aren't you special? People who don't like your screaming brats are racist bigots! Give me my welfare check! I'm out of twinkies to feed my brats!

[miss elizabeth]

Originally Posted by Larry Borgia

Huh? Are you saying that not wanting to have one's peacful bookshop browsing interrupted by a 115 decibel high pitched scream is the equivalent of racism?

No, I'm saying disliking an entire group of individuals based on the actions of a few is ignorant and bigoted. Saying "I can't stand kids," is, if not the same as saying "I don't like black people," certainly an opinion of the same type. It's dumb. Saying "I don't like it when children scream in stores, and I wish parents would try to teach their children manners" is a sensible statement we can all agree with. But that isn't what he said.

[miss elizabeth]

Originally Posted by levdrakon

Bwa, ha, ha! You ignorant fuck. Just because you can't keep your thighs together and have probably been knocked up by half the guys in your town and now we're all stuck with the sixteen ill-bread fatherless screaming brats you plop out every nine months hardly equates to racism. Ooh, aren't you special, you can spread your legs, toss your heals to Jesus and oh, my gosh, nine months later you crapped out another kid. Aren't you special? People who don't like your screaming brats are racist bigots! Give me my welfare check! I'm out of twinkies to feed my brats!

[Heffalump and Roo]

Thank goodness! Sometimes the right thing happens.

[Larry Borgia]

Originally Posted by miss elizabeth

No, I'm saying disliking an entire group of individuals based on the actions of a few is ignorant and bigoted. Saying "I can't stand kids," is, if not the same as saying "I don't like black people," certainly an opinion of the same type. It's dumb. Saying "I don't like it when children scream in stores, and I wish parents would try to teach their children manners" is a sensible statement we can all agree with. But that isn't what he said.

But all little kids do in fact cry and scream from time to time. I don't hold it against them, that's their nature and they'll grow out of it. But their parents should be aware of any annoyance their kids are causing and take steps to mitigate it.

I like kids. I can't stand parents who think that everyone else has to accomodate their bundle of joy. Have all the kids you want, but let me browse a bookstore in peace.

And Captain C's comments may be over the top, but I don't see how they're anywhere near racism. There are behaviours common to all kids.

[Dangerosa]

Originally Posted by Carol Stream

Why would any parents NEED (your word) to take their babies to Barnes & Noble? Or to restaurants above Chucky Cheese, or on airplanes, for that matter? I've even seen "parents" pushing strollers through Las Vegas casinos! WTF?

It may well be a generational difference, but when I was a kid, none of the above would have been even remotely imaginable.

Because children learn appropriate behavior in public by being in public and seeing appropriate behavior - and by being corrected when the behavior is inappropriate. You don't learn how to be well behaved grown up being surrounded by children. Children who have only been to Chucky Cheese become teenagers who are only able to go to Chucky Cheese and become grownups who don't know how to behave in a restaurant - I'm sure you've seen grown ups like this. Children learn by practice and exposure.

Now, you don't take your three year old to your local Ruth's Chris - but taking your five year old to TGI Fridays is how you end up with a twelve year old you can expose to Ruth's Chris, and becomes an eighteen year old you can take to Charlie Trotters.

[Algher]

Originally Posted by Captain_C

It is a simple test here people. If I walked into a Borders and went "AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!" as loud as I could, would I be asked to leave? Yes, yes I would. I expect others who did this to be asked to leave as well. So why should a certain subset of people be exempt from this? Age discrimination is wrong and, in some cases, illegal.

You can be louder than the kid, so the comparison is not correct.

Bring in the decible meter. We can measure the sound of, say, my kid. If that is the noise level that requires exit, then apply it perfectly equally.

By the way, while we are at it, any of you assholes using fucking pit language in the store can get your foul mouths gone too.

Your cell phone better not ring above that level either.

What a bunch of whiny little shitheads we have. I sincerely doubt that there are many, if any, around here who truly is without sin on the noise subject.

[descamisado]

Originally Posted by miss elizabeth

Explain the difference, please.

Judging a group of individuals like Captain_C did is bigoted and ignorant, whether the group is children, black people, redheads, whatever. You can do it, sure. And I can think you are a mean, stupid person.

I think the similarities revolve around looking at any group, and because of their characteristics just by virtue of being a part of that group, deciding you don't like that group.

I think the difference between saying you don't like babies and saying you don't like blacks is that the former is about choosing not to be around babies and not personally creating any and the latter is about choosing not to be around blacks and, in the extreme, doing everything you can to oppress, subjugate and actually annihilate them. I don't get the impression people who say they don't like babies would actually go to those lengths.

To expand (or expound) further, not liking blacks has a whole cultural, institutional and historical aspect, miscegenistic attitude, power-dynamical tone and diasporical effect that I just don't see in Captain_Cs admittedly over-the-top comment.

P.S. the OP said he/she was 14.

[nashiitashii]

Originally Posted by Larry Borgia

But all little kids do in fact cry and scream from time to time. I don't hold it against them, that's their nature and they'll grow out of it. But their parents should be aware of any annoyance their kids are causing and take steps to mitigate it.

I like kids. I can't stand parents who think that everyone else has to accomodate their bundle of joy. Have all the kids you want, but let me browse a bookstore in peace.

And Captain C's comments may be over the top, but I don't see how they're anywhere near racism. There are behaviours common to all kids.

_{Emphasis mine.}
I think this is exactly the problem that Miss Elizabeth is having. Honestly, there are TONS of parents out there that seem to have this problem, and blame any person who thinks their kids' behavior is the parents' responsibility as being hateful and bigoted. Yes, parenting is tough, but there are a great many ways to make it easier on yourself. Consistent parental discipline and rewards for behavior help, but so do things like taking the responsibility for your child's and your own actions as well; children are like sponges and remember every example of bad mommy/daddy behavior as a reason why they don't have to follow mommy or daddy's rules.

Morgyn, my dad got me out of tantrum throwing very early with a similar technique. I do believe I was throwing a tantrum at home, but by him throwing one on the floor next to me, I learned that, not only is it not appropriate behavior, but you look like a fucking dumbass when you throw a blue wobbler.

[Heffalump and Roo]

Originally Posted by Heffalump and Roo

Thank goodness! Sometimes the right thing happens.

Oops, I posted this sort of out of context. I was talking about the OP author.

But it came right after miss elizabeth's post. As for her (?) line of reasoning, it's the worst I've seen in a while here.

[levdrakon]

Originally Posted by Dangerosa

Because children learn appropriate behavior in public by being in public and seeing appropriate behavior - and by being corrected when the behavior is inappropriate. You don't learn how to be well behaved grown up being surrounded by children. Children who have only been to Chucky Cheese become teenagers who are only able to go to Chucky Cheese and become grownups who don't know how to behave in a restaurant - I'm sure you've seen grown ups like this. Children learn by practice and exposure.

Now, you don't take your three year old to your local Ruth's Chris - but taking your five year old to TGI Fridays is how you end up with a twelve year old you can expose to Ruth's Chris, and becomes an eighteen year old you can take to Charlie Trotters.

Excellent post, and I heartily agree. Parents certainly should take their kids out in various public places and expose to all sorts of environments. This is how they learn. Public isn't the place to expose the rest of us to your child's worst behavior.

WRT Captain_C's post about an adult going into Borders and screaming their head off, being asked to leave (quite rightly) and applying the same standard to children, here's my take on it: Why not? Of course we don't really hold kids to the same standard as adults. But, we do hold the parents responsible, do we not? Or shouldn't we? If I throw a rock through my neighbor's window, I'm responsible. If my kid throws a rock threw my neighbor's window, I'm responsible. It's my kid. So, if your kid starts screaming in Borders, of course we realize kids do things like that. But you're the parent, so you're responsible and you might as well consider it as *you* screaming in Borders.

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by 5-4-Fighting

I think your post was a little over the top but her comparing your statement to "I don't like black people" was a little perplexing, to say the least..

It's not equivalent, but it's an interesting point. I agree that misbehaving children can be irritating, but misbehaving women can be irritating - ever been in a restaurant with a table of eight women on their third glass of wine? The screaming and yelling trumps any baby who ever lived. If I posted a thread about how irritating women are in public places I'd be swatted harder than a bug. There used to be a kid in my high school who had Tourette's; nice guy, actually, but he'd shout and yell uncontrollably in the library, at events, in class. I'd be quite a major asshole for calling out Tourette's sufferers.

Children are HUMAN BEINGS. They're people; more to the point, they are people who have very particular needs. They're not animals or irritations or impositions upon you, they're fellow members of society, and when you/Captain C were kids you yelled and screamed sometimes, too, and please spare me the "kids are worse today" bullshit, because they aren't.

I don't doubt there are some parents out there who let their kids go nuts in places they shouldn't (e.g. the movies) or to unreasonable extents, but come on. Even the OP said it was at best 2-3 minutes of crying. How often, really, does this happen, versus the number of times you've seen ADULTS act diruptively? I mean, I can't believe some of the bullshit people are spewing. Look at this:

Originally Posted by Carol Stream

Why would any parents NEED (your word) to take their babies to Barnes & Noble? Or to restaurants above Chucky Cheese, or on airplanes, for that matter? I've even seen "parents" pushing strollers through Las Vegas casinos! WTF?

It may well be a generational difference, but when I was a kid, none of the above would have been even remotely imaginable.

Gosh, ya think? There was once a day when it was unimaginable to bring a child on an airplane? That's simply a lie; you're telling me when Carol Stream was a kid nobofy ever brought children on airplanes? The only way that was "unimaginable" when Carol Stream was a kid is if Carol is so old that they didn't have airplanes then. Who could say something like that with a straight face?

Nobody EVER brought kids shopping, to places like bookstores? What a gigantc pile of bullshit.

[miss elizabeth]

You child haters have real issues.

I never said I think children should be allowed to behave poorly in public. I never said I think all parents should take their two year olds to Le Fancy French Restaurant and allow them to act like hellions. I don't think kids should act like hellions at McDonalds; my kids certainly don't. HOWEVER it is completely stupid to say that a baby fussing in a store is the same as an adult walking in and screaming at the top of their lungs. For one thing, people, this is a store, one where children are welcome. It's not a library, where people are studying. They both have books, yes, but there is a difference. If the story was about a toddler who had run around tossing books off the shelves, and generally causing a ruckus, I would be one of the first people to say it was awful and the kid should be taken out of the store. And as for the OP, I think that perhaps (I wasn't there, so I can't say for certain) but perhaps, the baby was allowed to make too much of a fuss before it's mother picked it up to comfort it. But, to take this minor incident, and use it to say that kids have no place in public until they are six is so stupid... I can't believe there are people here defending it.

Originally Posted by Larry Borgia

I can't stand parents who think that everyone else has to accomodate their bundle of joy.

I can't stand adults who think everyone has to accommodate their desire to go through life without ever being bothered by a young child. There are LOTS of places and situations where babies and young children are out of place. But Borders, in the middle of the day, ain't one of them. And if listening to a baby fuss for a minute upsets you so greatly, maybe you are the one who shouldn't leave the house, because I'll let you know, stores like parents. And they like kids. Even bookstores. Maybe even especially bookstores, because parents spend a whole lot of money on books for their kids. That's why they have whole areas set aside for kids to play, at least mine does.

Why do you feel its reasonable to say young kids (and parents, by default) aren't allowed out of the house? Can't you see what an asshole you sound like?

[miss elizabeth]

Originally Posted by RickJay

It's not equivalent, but it's an interesting point. I agree that misbehaving children can be irritating, but misbehaving women can be irritating - ever been in a restaurant with a table of eight women on their third glass of wine? The screaming and yelling trumps any baby who ever lived. If I posted a thread about how irritating women are in public places I'd be swatted harder than a bug.

Thank you. I was going to try and make a point comparing children to women, but you beat me. I appreciate it, since apparently I've come off as a loon.

[descamisado]

Originally Posted by RickJay

Children are HUMAN BEINGS. They're people; more to the point, they are people who have very particular needs. They're not animals or irritations or impositions upon you, they're fellow members of society, and when you/Captain C were kids you yelled and screamed sometimes, too, and please spare me the "kids are worse today" bullshit, because they aren't . . . .

I wasn't defending Captain_C's statement, only making a comment about the disconnect I felt existed in misselizabeth's statement making the comparison that she did. I don't think that was an accurate comparison.

Please read all of my posts, particularly #92, that says some of the same, reasonable things you've said. Once you've done so, to say I'm intolerant of kids is way out of line.

I, in fact, love kids and regret that I won't ever have any, even ones that would dare cry in public.

[Cattitude]

Originally Posted by RickJay

and please spare me the "kids are worse today" bullshit, because they aren't.

.

That's your opinion. I say they are MUCH different than even 20 years ago. And 30-40 years ago? Much,Much different
I'm 39 and no way was I or my sisters ever allowed to run around in any store like I see many of these kids do nowadays.
I can't tell you how many times I also see unattended children in public as well. Then you see stories of abductions on the news and you wonder how THAT happens

I have a sibling who is 20 years younger than myself. I half raised her and she never, ever had a tantrum. She didn't cry or wail in public. She listened and stayed by my side. Mom told me that my other sister and I were the same way. I guess that was luck?

Oh yes, children behave much differently now than years ago.