If Michael Moore is to be believed, Canada is more than just a pleasant, prosperous neighboring nation: it’s Paradise! It’s a place where nobody bothers to lock their doors, and everyone gets stellar health care with no wait.
Now… I’m prepared to believe all kinds of wonderful things about Canada, but does even the proudest Canadian recognize the land Mr. Moore is telling us about?
~270 million less in people, can’t be too bad.
Yep, I actually find myself walking around in the middle of the largest city in Canada not worrying about being shot. I’ve managed to see my doctor sometimes the same day I call, and I haven’t had to pay a co-pay, or get a hospital visit pre-approved by my HMO.
I’d say he’s pretty close… Although I do lock my doors most of the time… Then again, I locked them in a city of 75,000 in California too.
Depends on where you live, like pretty much everywhere else I imagine. While I’ve never been shot at, mugged, or even threatened in any significant way, it does happen – a lot – in the Greater Toronto Area. Yeah, our health care system is pretty spiffy – though there were those Mike Harris years for Ontarians [shudder] – and on the whole I suppose we might be a tad nicer than your average New Yorker, but Utopia? Nah. Maybe Lower-East Utopia Minor. Now, I’ve never really lived anywhere but various locales in Ontario, so I have no useful basis for comparison, but no, I generally don’t walk the streets in fear. I do lock my doors. I keep a close eye on exposed valuables when in public. I’ve met and seen all manner of characters, though none so heinous as those that turn up on the evening news. Frankly, I don’t think it’s any more than above average living here. We’re still taxed left, right, and up exotic orifices. We get our share of mockable politicians. (Cretien’s gaffes were always good for a chuckle) Some were even despised by many. (The above Mike Harris, with his butchering of Ontario health care is a good example.) I dunno … perhaps having lived here my whole life has given me the idea that we’re not much more than slightly above average as far as the quality of life goes. Other than universal health care, it’s really all about where you hang your hat.
No, I don’t lock my door, or even close it other than the screen in the summer.
No, I don’t worry about being shot or mugged in any neighbourhood at any time, despite hunting being the norm in my region.
No, Americans on average do not live as healthily for as long as us, or as long as us, despite their paying more for health care both individually and governmentally – and our system is not the best in the world.
Look, both nations are pretty teriffic places in which to live. The USA trumps Canada economically, but has gone off the rails when it comes to guns and health care.
A bit of hyperbole, but it comes pretty close to the mark.
Want paradise? That woud be paddling about the islands on Superior on the other side of the mesa where I live.
Life’s what you make of it. Canada is a land of freedom and opportunity.
The health care system has wide support for a couple of reasons. The first is that, being a political system, it has evolved to meet the needs of the average Canadian. That is, for things like going to a family doctor, getting checkups for the kids, having babies, or having routine issues dealt with, it works fine, albeit with some waiting lists.
The second is that the costs are largely hidden. People pay a few modest fees and think that’s all they are paying for their healthcare. But in fact, we are heavily taxed to pay for the health care system. The result has been lower economic growth, and Canada’s standard of living has been slipping in the past few years relative to the U.S.
But if you’re an elderly person looking for a hip replacement, good luck. If you’re an elderly person needing cataract surgery, get yourself a dog to walk your blind butt around for a year or two, because that’s how long on average people are waiting for that type of surgery. If you need to see a spcialist, the wait can be brutal. If you’ve got a suspicious lump and want the right kind of doctor to look at it, you can wait months. Costs are skyrocketing, we have shortages of nurses and doctors, and we’re beginning to lag in some key metrics like various cancer survival rates, probably because people can’t get in to take advantage of early detection.
But one of the things I hate most about single-payer health care is the deleterious effects it has on our freedom. We’re seeing movements to ban all sorts of unhealthy activities and substances. The logic is that if the state is paying your health care bill, it has an interest in seeing you stay healthy. To me, this is simply apalling - it’s no less than saying the government is my body’s caretaker and I therefore have no right to do with it as I please. This is a frightening road to go down. When you have to start justifying yourself to the state, you’re truly on the road to serfdom.
This is not to say that our health care system is terrible. It isn’t. But it does have its own problems. There is no utopia here.
Guess you haven’t visited the USA recently. Houston banned smoking in restaurants last year, to much wailing & gnashing of teeth. But most restaurants managed to stay open. Most bars are next. Most work places don’t allow smoking. Neither do transit stops, malls, etc.
Many cities are banning transfats in restaurants. We hear more & more about “obese” kids. The Center for Science in the Public Interest comes out with another scary villain every few months. “Tex Mex can be fattening!” Duh.
Of course, the Bush administration hasn’t pushed many new laws about public health. Fretting about a little salmonella or mad cow might impede with Bidness?
I’d be interested in learning more about the “deleterious effects” on freedom unique to Canada. You mention that there are “movements.” That, is the government is not behind everything. That’s also the case here. But we’ve got plenty of people instructing us about what’s healthy. Annoying–even when they’re right!
Another thing on the “freedom” point: Not having universal health care is very restrictive on your freedom too because you are often tied to a job in order to keep your health care particularly if, heaven forbid, you actually have some sort of medical condition! (Of course, I am assuming here that you are employable at a high enough level where health insurance comes with the job.)
And, we are not talking dramatic medical problems here. When I was in grad school, the grad student organization got an insurance company to agree to write students who desired it policies to extend the university coverage for grad students that capped out at a paltry $50,000 up to $1 million. When I filled out the form and told the insurance guy that I had had kidney stones, he told me they would have to exclude that as a pre-existing condition. He then said, “You just had one kidney stone, right?” I said, no, actually I have had 3 over the years. He looked up in his magic book and I was “NCA” (no coverage available). He said the best he could do is write me an “accidents only” policy. This was for an otherwise healthy male in his mid 20’s.
So, when the U.S. talks about being the land of opportunity and enterpreneurship, just remember that, while it may be that if you are in perfect health, don’t think about being in business for yourself if you actually have any medical conditions! [The one saving grace is a law passed, over opposition by many Republicans, called “COBRA” that requires the insurance company of an employer who has given you health insurance (and perhaps has a company of a certain minimum size?) to allow you to continue to buy into the group plan at the rates that the company pays for 18 months after you leave the job.]
Heck, I live in America and I don’t recognize what he sees here. I grew up in New Jersey with unlocked doors. If I were to move back to that town or a similar one, I probably would go back to unlocked doors.
I don’t get the general sentiment in this thread. I live in the suburbs of DC. I never lock my doors and I never worry about getting shot or mugged even in many of the “bad” neighborhoods of DC; though there’s still some areas I wouldn’t be comfortable in, but I have no reason to go there.
My health care is cheap and I ALWAYS see my doctor within a few hours if it’s an emergency, and in the same day if it’s not quite an emergency (like I’m just sick).
Like furt, I just don’t see this whole concept of how screwed up the US is.
Like wow! Most of us in larger cities in the U.S. always wear our bullet-proof vests, hit the ground at any unexplained loud noises, and shoot first if we see any suspicious-looking persons. Must be nice to live without fear. :rolleyes:
Any studies to support these statements? If true, this would qualify as appalling.
Utopia? Utopia isn’t that fucking cold.
Based on his film Canadian Bacon, I would say Moore appreciates Canada but doesn’t see a “utopia” there.
So, this is interesting to me. In the US, being a doctor is still a pretty well paid profession. As much as I hate working with MDs, I will gladly concede that for the amount of schooling and abuse they put up with early on, and the number of hours they put in throughout their careers, they are relatively underpaid. I saw a poll a few years ago (Time or Newsweek or US News, one of those magazines did a special issue on medicine), that more than half of MDs within ten years of medical school regretted going to medical school, largely because it just isn’t as lucrative as it once was. Doctors would have been much better off financially if they had gone to business school or law school, and I’m guessing if the situation gets any worse, that’s exactly what will begin happening.
Is medicine a well compensated profession in Canada? Is compensation at the heart of the shortage? Is this an unforeseen consequence of this utopia?
:rolleyes: If that’s the worst thing about SPHC, bring it on!
I think the rolly-eyes is a little harsh here, BrainGlutton. A lot of people are worried about the government having too much to say about what a person can and can’t do with their own person, and I think, rightly so. You may think it’s a fair trade-off, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think it could get a little too constricting in terms of personal freedom.
But, as has been mentioned already in this thread, we get those restrictions even without UHC. E.g., we’ve had laws against certain recreational drugs since the early 20th Century. And smoking is now more restricted in the U.S. than almost anywhere else – even though it’s a vice this country gave the world.
How do we have any more “personal freedom” in the U.S. than in Canada or Europe?
Unlike the perfectly reasonable constriction on human freedom dying from lack of medical care entails.
Couple detail nitpicks. You can get insurance for your own business in the US, I’m not sure why you think you can’t. In most states business of two people qualify for group coverage and in some states a business of one person qualifies. Business coverage typically means that health status is not relevent to getting the coverage. (You might have a waiting period on a pre-existing condition, it varies by company)
Regarding COBRA, you have that mostly right. COBRA at the federal level applies to business with at least 20 employees. Here in CA we have Cal-COBRA which is a state program that applies to business of 19 and fewer. The rate is usually 103% of the premium that was being paid through the company you were employed with.