Lets Talk Architecture

The thread on the Air Force Acadamey Chapel got me thinking about my favorite form of artistic expression: architecture.

I’m kind of iterested in discussing people’s take on modern architecture versus more traditional designs. I’d like to post a something I wrote on an urban planning message board a year or so ago.

From that post, you can probably guess which side of the argument that I fall on. But, to further elaborae, I think this quote from Robert A. M. Stern about his firm’s philosophy does a great job of explaining what ideas good architecture follows:

I know my arguement is considered blasphemous in many circles and that there are quite a few avant garde types here, so I fully expect to get blasted for my opinions. Fire away. :cool:

Well, here’s the thing.

There were lots of old ugly buildings, and there were lots of modern buildings that look great. If everything could be a Mayflower Hotel or a Fallingwater, nobody would complain.

Sadly, what we get is things like the Commodore Hotel turned into the Grand Hyatt New York.

Now, nobody doubts that the hotel needed a thorough rehabilitation when it was done, and Donald Trump deserves a lot of credit for what he did - it led to the rehabilitation of the entire area around the terminal. Business wise, it was a tremendous success.

But it was possible to renovate the hotel without slapping on a glass and steel facade. The building now looks more dated than the stone and brickwork did. It is an architectural failure, at least artistically.

Of course its true that there were ugly old buildings and there are ugly new buildings. Its just that when it comes to architecture from roughly 1950-1990 the ratio of bad to good is shockinly high. Hell, 60’s and 70’s architecture is commonly referred to as “Brutalism.” Can you cite me an entire architectural movement from pre 1950 thatw as so universally reviled by most people that it was completely dismissed a mere 30 years after its peak?

These things go in cycles, though. Gothic structures were seen as overornamented and old fashioned until John Ruskin helped revive interest for them in the mid 19th century. The architecture he most hated was neoclassical, and he heaped special scorn on the Crystal Palace.

I think we’d be happy to have the Crystal Palace around today.

Without Ruskin, neo-Gothic structures like the National Cathedral, the Cathedral of Learning at the University of Pittsburgh, or the Oxford Museum of Natural History might never have been built. Although a neo-Gothic revival was spreading, he was quite influential as an architecture critic, and put a lot of impetus behind the movement.

I doubt we’ll ever see a Brutalist revival, but an better appreciation of other modern forms might follow. We might also fall out of love with some older styles, as nostalgia wears off and we can look at things with a clear artistic sense.

James Howard Kunstler’s website features an “Eyesore of the Month.” Lots of examples of incredibly egregious modern architecture, with scathingly caustic commentary.

The original modernists in architecture - and in all arts, for that matter - were rebels. They despised the overadorned, fussy, and overstuffed Victorian age designs and interiors and were trying to bring architecture into the 20th century by making it more efficient, cheaper, standardized, and functional. These were admirable goals.

They did not achieve their goals very well, although some critics still think highly of individual houses designed and occasionally built by the modernists. Their followers tried to bring these to the masses. The “House of Tomorrow” was a common theme at World’s Fairs and other exhibitions throughout the 1930s and it was our bad luck that the Depression meant that the innovations these presented were not adopted until decades later.

Admittedly, form does not need to follow function as a general rule. Function can certainly do quite well with extraneous design elements. But the streamlining movement of the 1930s certainly made huge strides in both beauty and effectiveness for a vast variety of household products and industrial equipment, and it has to be considered an outgrowth of modernism. Art Deco and Art Nouveau also grew out of the same discontents as modernism and both were successful design strategies. They found some use in architecture as well.

Brutalism is a mystery to everyone excepts its practitioners, but the glass box style of architecture still has not been superseded because nobody can figure out a more efficient alternative. And glittering skylines do have a beauty that are hard to match by older buildings, which tend to work far better with fewer stories.

Even so, modernism is dead, and has been for decades. There’s no real point railing against it today. Post-modernism is another matter, although the only thing that holds post-modernism together is that it is not modernism. No coherent style has replaced modernism. This is truly odd, but I think it is mostly a matter of economics. You can do only so much with a skyscraper and not have it be prohibitively expensive to build.

The individual post-modernist buildings are harder to judge. According to everything I’ve read, they need to be seen in person and experienced in situ. Pictures don’t capture them. Since I’ve never seen a Gehry or his peers’ structures and gone in and explored them I feel I can’t say much about them. Some certainly seem to be embraced by the public. Some do not.

This raises the question of what you want the alternative to be. We can’t go back. Anything built up until, say, the Depression was designed and executed based on the availability of vast numbers of cheap laborers, even for the most specialized arts. The detailing of these buildings may be beautiful, but no one can afford them today. Any architect has to keep this in mind. No doubt that’s why many went in for extensive use of concrete. It’s cheap and it’s strong. Ugly beyond belief, to be sure, but saving money is also beautiful to a lot of people.

To have a new style of architecture appear means using materials that are cheap and strong and beautiful. This may be happening with new composite fibers and other innovations. But architecture is a weird art, dependent on the whims of owners and the realities of physics and economics. I don’t find any appreciation for this in the OP. Some areas of cities were beautiful in the 1920s, yes, but they were totally different from the cities we live in today. And the ugliness of much of the rest of those cities is not commented upon. Tenements were not beautiful. Ordinary worker housing was not beautiful. Factories were not beautiful. Being selective with memories allows you to prove just about anything, but your arguments will fall apart as soon as they are pushed.

I like both old and new structures. I admit that we have lost a sense of monumentalism that gave us lasting city halls, banks, universities, and public buildings that have not properly been replicated. But the insides of many of those grand outsides are almost unusable by modern standards, narrow, constricted, dark, cut-up (or wastefully lofty and vast), and impossible to climate control.

It’s no good saying you want a new architecture. Buildings have to be as good to live in as to look at. What do you want a building to achieve? What do you want a city block to do for you? How do you want a city to manage? For who? We as a society have no answers for any of these questions, I submit, and there’s no point looking to architects for the answers unless we can tell them whether the answers are correct.

OMG…thank you for posting that. This will give me hours of alternate shudders and guffaws.

Exapno Mapcase I actually agree with almost everything that you say, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I do understand that the level of ornamentation that we saw in the past is unlikely to be repeated on a large scale, but that doesn’t mean buildings have to be over-functional and sparse. Georgian is a good example of a style that useses minimal decorative elements, yet is still stylized and beautiful. Even conceeding that, more decoration can still be done. For example, many of Robert Stern’s projects, whom I quoted, have a very high level of ornamentation rarely seen today. Here is an example of what I’m talking about. Although, I admit, many of his projects are megabucks buildings and probably not suitable for widespread use.

One area where I do disagree is your statement that I was selectively idealizing the past by ignoring factories and tenements and such. Actually, at least in places in the northeast that I know, its surprising to see how well built and beautiful even many of these buildings are. I would be glad to supply photos to illustrate my point if you like.

In regards to modernism being dead and your statements about postmodernism, I agree. I do, however, believe that among much of the intellectual forefront of the architecture profession, particularly most of the “starchitects,” an incredible hostility to any traditional elements of design is alive and well. See, for example, the fuss at UVA when the university took the selection of new buildings away from the school of architecture and gave it to the public relations department; and the subsequent uproar over their building choice. For an example of the garbage the vanguards of the architecture profession are still designing and the mumbo-jumbo explanations they give for them, see this piece of excrement.

As I alluded to in my post, in the past 10 or so years, many projects by big-time developers have shown, IMHO, a much better sense of sanity in regards to building design. I think this might be the shiny skyscrapers you refer to; and I think this may be the beginning of a indentifiable style. By that I refer to buildings like this, this, or even this. You are correct, however, that unless this style gets articulated and becomes a movement, we will continue to see as many projects from the Eysore of the Month website as we do good new buildings.

I also meant to respond to this. Glass boxes are actually pretty inefficient in at least one sense. Because of the extensive use of glass they heat up quickly without tons of energy for cooling them. Also, I disagree about traditional styles not lending themselves to skyscraper design. The first great wave of skyscrapers, say from 1910 to about 1935, are essentially modern steel frame buildings clad in stucco or graninte. As far as I know, skyscrapers like the Woolworth or Chrysler buildings are no less efficient than the UN building, and god knows, they are so much nicer looking.

You can also find some deeply visceral criticism of modern architecture here and here.

Modern glass wall techniques are far more efficient than skyscrapers used to be, use the heat that shines on them for other purposes, and can also work to cut glare, darken, and do just about anything short of making toast. (See this story for an example.) However, the real reason as always is cost. Nobody is going to haul granite up 90 stories when glass is so lightweight.

I don’t disagree that much with you either, overall. Much awful design has been perpetrated on cities and elsewhere. And I very much like older architecture.

I’m just very wary about selection bias and telling both sides of the story. (Kunstler is a one-sided ass who writes screeds and understands nothing of history or the present. He and his ilk have done more to damage our understand of the processes of cities than the modernists.)

I’m from the northeast myself and I know factories inside and out. There are some gorgeous examples still extant. The not-so-gorgeous ones? They no longer exist. They were tore down or burned down or vandalized or extensively renovated. Many were hellholes.

Older multi-story buildings that lined old downtowns have a classic structure. The first and second floors are decorated and oversized, often with arched windows and other dressings. Then every floor above them is exactly the same until the roof, which again has a varied decor. When this was first pointed out to me many years ago I was astounded at how many buildings this applied to. It lends a uniformity to a streetscape but allows the entrance to each building to be distinct. The use of brick and stone lend texture to the buildings and their naturalness gives the building a familiarity that adds a humanizing touch. Modern buildings set well back from the sidewalk and with forbidding walls reaching to the ground lack exactly this human touch, which is a major reason people cannot relate to them.

But this style works best up to around 10 stories. Over that the walls get monotonous, the brick darkens the street in a way that glass and its reflections do not, and the size becomes monolithic. The crowns and step-backs that builders added in New York - just to get around zoning laws, not because they were trying to add aesthetics - work on many buildings there, but they are mostly famous exceptions rather than the norm. Most ordinary large old buildings are uninteresting hulks. Our eyes ignore them because we’re so used to them, but they don’t add anything.

And even the more famous ones weren’t the projects of famous architects. They were just good construction projects that wound up working. There are some very good books on the construction of the Empire State and Chrysler Buildings and Daniel Okrent’s Great Fortune: The Epic of Rockefeller Center is terrific.

But what of all the rest of the hundreds of ordinary buildings that aren’t written about? Some are good and some are mediocre and some are horrible. A lot of the latter are simply gone so we don’t have them as bad examples anymore. That’s why looking at the buildings that survive is a biased selection. The good stuff survives and the bad stuff gets knocked down. So of course what you see of the old looks good.

I agree that “starchitects” committed some atrocities, along with some great work. I think I see the same trend as you do in that architects are being much more careful to fit their buildings into their environments rather than trying to stand alone and make a statement. OTOH, the new Asian cities seem to be all statement and that may change the entire equation. There’s nothing in the U.S. that can compare to the new Chinese cities, or Hong Kong or Taipei or Singapore. Or Dubai, for that matter. That’s where the future of architecture lies. Nothing done in the U.S. or Europe really matters for now. We’ll be taking cues from them for decades to come.

That’s a very fun site and I’ve bookmarked it.

But it has exactly zero to do with modern architecture.

Why not?!

Exapno MapcaseI’m actually glad you brought up Dubai, because to me its the perfect example of what has gone wrong with the way we construct our built environment. The new city is essentially a freeway with skyscrapers on either side. In terms of the actual design of the buildings, some of them are pretty cool, but they fail to work in any meaningful urban way. Hong Kong, on the other hand, I agree, thats a place where pretty good architecture is being don.

I poked around that site rather than exhausting it, but everything I saw was “visions of the future.”

Modern architects didn’t do that. They were concerned about the present.

Sure Corbusier’s Ville Contemporaine or City for Three Million People was an important concept piece that proved to be very influential, but it existed outside of the popular culture matrix that the future visions lived in. Not even the houses of tomorrow were designed by major architects.

Two different worlds.

That site has some hilarious examples, although the author’s repetitive claims of the oil crash signifying the doom of technology and society are a bit annoying.

I’m fond of the Bank of America tower, especially at night with its lighted crown. (Charlotte’s nickname is the Queen City.) I don’t know the technical terms, but it looks both old and modern at the same time. to me

Kuntsler is definitely a one-sided ass. Completely overly doomish and gloomish about oil, energy, capitalism, and our way of life. . .and I’m still totally addicted to him!

I’m just a sucker for anyone telling us a suburban, car-driven, consumeristic life-style is sending us towards oblivion.

Anyway, good thread. I love architecture and urban-planning discussions even if I have nothing to contribute.

That is a pretty sweet building. This is what modern architecture should aspire to, combining the best of whats old and modern.