Cops in Libraries

[OtakuLoki]

I really should be Pitting this, but I just can't gather the energy. I'm angry, but mostly saddened.

I just saw this story. The short version is that a librarian confronted an apparantly homeless man who was masturbating in the library, and he responded by trying to knife her. The officer on the scene tasered the man, and no one was hurt beyond that.

The only person in this sequence of events whom I have a problem with is the guy jacking off in the library, who seems to have been some kind of repeat customer there.

But the last line from the linked article just saddens me to no end.

Originally Posted by linked article

Wichita police started manning libraries with armed security officers in December of last year.

Given the sequence of events that just went down, this was obviously a wise decision. I don't know if it's cost-effective, but it certainly saved one woman from at least a nasty wound, I believe.

But what does it say that we need to have armed guards in libraries?

[hekk]

Originally Posted by OtakuLoki

But what does it say that we need to have armed guards in libraries?

I have a feeling that the only libraries being staffed by armed guards are major downtown and inner-city ones that have trouble with homeless people loitering, not your typical residential/suburban neighborhood branch. After all, the library is free, public, and air-conditioned/heated.

For example:
I frequent the Central library in Milwaukee often. Very often. Without fail, there are at least a dozen or so homeless persons on the stairs leading up to the main entrance, and many more inside. Some/most are not properly medicated and can be really disruptive. This location has security guards, but my neighborhood branch doesn't.

[tdn]

The upside of this is that "Shhh!" now has teeth.

[Chimera]

I work for a University Security office and while we don't have the scores of homeless wandering around that they do downtown, we do have ongoing problems with unsavory types looking at Porn.

Fortunately for us, we have not had any masterbaters. If that were to happen, we'd be calling the police and having them charged. Usually we just trespass people, which means that they aren't allowed back on campus for one year on penalty of criminal charges.

The saddest part of "Porn Patrol" is that we're just as likely these days to be trespassing a minor. Despite a 'no unaccompanied minors allowed in the library' policy. Back in February, I trespassed a 13 year old. Last week one of my co-workers trespassed a 12 year old who was looking at anal sex sites. The worst was the 16 year old that was looking at sex offender listings, gay porn and 'finding men' sites all at the same time. That one creeped me out.

99% of the people we trespass for this offense say "I didn't know that I couldn't do that here!". Which explains why most of them are found in a very few computers either out of sight in corners, or in the three "jump seats" that have a great view of the entrance - where they can see us coming.

I've had one guy, a Grad Student, who was viewing porn right in the open area, visible to everyone who came through, and who started blubbering about how he knows that he has a problem and he's trying to get help. Sure buddy. Just get the hell out of here and don't come back.

[Sunspace]

What's the problem with merely viewing porn, if they aren't doing other squicky things? Can others see it? Do your computers not reset and clear their caches between user logons?

[Sunspace]

Grr. Missed edit window. Anyways...

Is the problem with merely viewing porn, or is it that they are doing other squicky things at the same time? Can others see it? Do your computers not reset and clear their caches between user logons, thus leaving unwanted traces for the next user?

There are plenty of other squicky things--medical research, for example--that people sometimes need to look at. Outside its filtered workstations, the Toronto public library specifically warns the user that the internet is unregulated and you basically have to be an adult to go on it.

I agree that disruptive people shouldn't be there; a library is a place for quiet and study.

[Eliphalet]

I worked in various libraries for 7 years in High School and College. This happens more often than you expect there, because:

• It's quiet
• It's non-confrontational
• Most of the staff are female
• It's so unexpected

I'm a 6' tall male, and I never had a problem; but many of my female colleagues were flashed, or came across a person masturbating.

My wife worked a downtown library, and they put up a sign that said "zip up, all ye who enter here", because they were having the police there several times a week. (The library board made them take it down)

We had one "gentleman" who came in every Sunday for 8 weeks running, and try to flash the female staff, and the children. He'd then take off once he'd succeeded; making it impossible to catch his car's license number.

I finally began following him around the building every Sunday, while the female staff called the cops. (The cops always seemed to arrive 5 minutes late).
After about 5 weeks, he'd walk in, see if I was working, and if I was, he'd turn and walk out.

He was arrested a few weeks later at another library, where he flashed a staff person from my building who was substituting there. (They were next door to the stereotypical donut shop; the cops didn't have to go far)



At a different building, we had a man flash a patron, who became hysterical. He booked out the door, and was gone before she calmed down enough to tell us what happened. She was so upset that she declared "I'm never coming back here again!!"

Fast-forward 6 months. She comes in for the first time after the incident, and tentatively says "Hi" to the staff (She was a hard-core regular prior to the incident; we all knew her); walks back to the stacks, and runs up to us crying. She manages to sob "He's here! He's back there again!!!"

We call the cops. Within a minute of the call, the 2 biggest policemen I've ever seen walk in. One's about 6'5", and tiny compared to the other. The walk back to the stacks, and come out carrying a man about 5'2", who's trying to zip up his trousers. He was later found to be a sexual offender, and incarcerated for several years.

There were several others during the same time, in our mid-sized suburban library system. (10 branches in the northern suburbs of Minneapolis/St Paul).

The nice thing was that we were a county-sponsored system, so not only did the local PD respond, but the Sheriff's Office also responded to any calls.

Eli

[Sunspace]

That's good, Eliphalet. Jerks who force themselves on others deserve to be ejected at the least.

[Eliphalet]

The largest part, IMHO, is that the computers are in the public view, and that porn is considered private. I wouldn't want to see an autopsy, a person's CC statements, or a prostate exam on the PC's at a library, even though it would be technically legitimate.

That being said, I am firmly against the filtering software that the government has forced into most libraries in the US. Under the first version of the software that my wife's library used, WebMD and Wikipedia were both banned, among many others. Even the SDMB was blacklisted for a time, until the staff protested.


Eli

[OtakuLoki]

Thanks for all the library horror stories. Eliphalet, I'm glad that they caught that one guy.

I know no one is accusing me of being an idiot, but I do feel the need to explicitly state - I don't think that it's unreasonable to station a cop in the library, these days. I'm just sad that it's seen to be necessary.

[Sunspace]

Originally Posted by Eliphalet

The largest part, IMHO, is that the computers are in the public view, and that porn is considered private. I wouldn't want to see an autopsy, a person's CC statements, or a prostate exam on the PC's at a library, even though it would be technically legitimate.

Then they need to warn users that this is a public area and private activities and information are not recommended. The you could go after any sort of squickiness no problem. It just seems to be that, given the difficulty of finding a definition for porn that successfully distinguishes between porn and non-porn sexual content, banning porn without impeding other research would be very difficult.

Originally Posted by Eliphalet

That being said, I am firmly against the filtering software that the government has forced into most libraries in the US. Under the first version of the software that my wife's library used, WebMD and Wikipedia were both banned, among many others. Even the SDMB was blacklisted for a time, until the staff protested.

Was the filtering mandatory on all public workstations? If so, why? In Toronto, it's on the "children's" workstations, and the others have big warnings.

[Dinsdale]

2 of my kids work in the library in our upper middle class Chicago burb. Never heard any problems of masturbating, but several homeless sleep there all day. (The local churches have shelters, but when they kick them out in the morning, several head over to the library.) As someone said, they are public places, so it is hard to kick someone out just because they are homeless. My daughter says some of them smell pretty bad. Maybe they should install a shower?

The other day a guy came in and asked where the PolSci books were located. After being directed there, he started pulling books off the shelves and flinging them at the ceiling. When someone asked him if he needed help he replied, "No, I'm just reshelving these books." And proceeded to continue hurling books at the ceiling. Cops were call and escorted him out.

It's a man's life in the library services!

[SomeUserName]

My oh my. I was at the library last week and not only did I witness two girls trying to sneak (read: steal) books out inside their book bag but I witnessed another girl five minutes later run out of the library with something that set the sensors off.

I just don't get it. You are allowed to borrow all this stuff for free and people try and steal it.

I thought that was sad but these library horror stories just blow my mind.

[WreckingCrew]

There is a cop who is stationed at my library, though his main duty seems to be keeping the teenagers quiet. This is in a mostly residential "city" of about 80,000.

On the other hand, the main library in Providence which is located downtown, has a fair number of street people as regular clientel and has old school stacks which have proved to be just perfect for dealing and shooting drugs on occassion only has rent-a-cops.

[chappachula]

this isn't GD, but can somebody please explain to me why there is no legal remedy for removing undesirables from the library?
Yes, I know there have been Supreme Court decisions which declared using a library as a First Ammendment right. And public libraries are, of course, public, supported by tax dollars, etc, so they can't discriminate.

But lots of restaurants have a sign saying "We reserve the right to refuse service" to people who don't follow the rules. As long as you don't discriminate on the basis of race, religion, etc, this is legal.
"No shoes, no shirt no service" is legal.....so why not disallow other clearly undesirable behaviors?
"No sleeping on the library benches" is also legal, I assume.

So why not signs like these:
"Nobody who reeks of vomit and alcohol allowed in the computer room"
"Anybody who disturbs the peace enough that we have to call the cops will be registered on a list --after 3 listings, you will be banned from the stacks and the computer room. After 5 listings, banned from the entire library."

Yeah, I know I'm fantasizing, and it would never get past the ACLU lawyers.
But it sure would be nice if people would use common sense instead of legal nitpicks.

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

I worked in a downtown library in the 80's.

We had security guys, & we had the odd creep or two.

Most of the Homeless were pretty quiet, just wanted In, from the cold/heat/rain.

[t-bonham@scc.net]

Originally Posted by SomeUserName

My oh my. I was at the library last week and not only did I witness two girls trying to sneak (read: steal) books out inside their book bag but I witnessed another girl five minutes later run out of the library with something that set the sensors off.

I just don't get it. You are allowed to borrow all this stuff for free and people try and steal it.

Not too long ago, we had problems with that in the local library system.

It was political. A local right-wing church had decided that the public library should not contain books that their church disagreed with. (Mainly books on sex education that mentioned gays or lesbians, or childrens books like "Heather Has Two Mommies".)

After efforts to get the books banned failed, they began an effort to steal all such books from the library. They tended to have underage juveniles doing this (extra credit in Sunday school, maybe?) or elderly church ladies. (But not the minister -- he wasn't about to risk a jail term for himself!)

[stucco]

A librarian in my home town was assaulted a year or so ago by a homeless man as she left work. From what I remember he hit her and knocked her to the ground, but luckily someone else was around to drag him away before he really hurt her. He was a regular in the library. I'm pretty sure they now have a police officer in that branch of the library full-time.

[Snowcarpet]

Man, when I worked downtown (well, I still work downtown, but in an entirely different environment), the worst I had to deal with was the Satan Lady. She (homeless crazy lady) constantly requested information on churches, Jesus, and Satan (and left bizarre notes about such things.)

It was library policy to give her one single printed page for each request. It made her happy and she would go away. But then again, they've had a major security force for ages. Sleeping is not permitted, but it's policy to let people hang out, and they do, for most all of the day.

Now that I work in the "private" library sector (I serve the public at large, but our building is blessedly not public), all I get is the rare really stinky person. Ugh, I hate the stinky ones.

[cbawlmer]

I haven't been to the downtown branch of the Houston Public Library in years, but I remember some pretty scary homeless people hanging around there even in the early '90s. I always wished there were some cops within shouting distance just in case. I'm sorry it's a problem, but I'm glad people call in police protection when it's needed.

Our college library had a flasher who showd up repeatedly during the four years I was at school there. They never caught the guy. Flasher sightings were like an urban legend on campus after awhile. What is it with perverts and libraries?

[Sunspace]

Originally Posted by t-bonham@scc.net

Not too long ago, we had problems with that in the local library system.

It was political. A local right-wing church had decided that the public library should not contain books that their church disagreed with....

After efforts to get the books banned failed, they began an effort to steal all such books from the library.

Now, that's evil.

Originally Posted by cbawlmer

What is it with perverts and libraries?

Must be the flipside of the librarian=sexy meme. Og alone knows what goes on the the turgid brain of the perv...

[D_Odds]

Originally Posted by Sunspace

Now, that's evil. Must be the flipside of the librarian=sexy meme. Og alone knows what goes on the the turgid brain of the perv...

Are you implying that Og is a perv?

[Tapiotar]

When I was a grad student, and the stacks were still open in the grad library, indecent exposure was pretty normal in the quieter reaches of the library, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear about rapes or attempted rapes. At that time, the "in case of fire" equipment was readily available, and one fellow went wacky and went after a woman with an axe. (I believe she got away). After that, women going into the stacks to get books or to study were issued whistles, and the fire fighting equipment like axes were locked behind glass doors. Eventually, the stacks were closed to the public.

That was the grimmest incident. There were also sad but funny things, like someone from the halfway house down the street, going in, opening up books, dropping trow and defecting in the book, then closing it and replacing it on the shelf. Must have been a literary critic in the making.

[Baker]

I'm not a librarian, but I'm a baker who works in a library cafe. The library has a security force, and city cops moonlight there(in uniform). We're right in the middle of town, on a bus route, heated in winter and cool in summer.

Homeless are not a novelty, and most are fairly harmless. Eccentric, yes, scruffy, certainly. But there was the one guy who passed out, from drinking generic mouthwash. He soiled the chair he was lolling in.

Problems are more with teenagers who just hang out. Loud, noisy, trying to find a place to make out, ugh!

As for the computers, they are not filtered, but viewing porn is not allowed. There are a good number of computers, but never enough, and the library does not feel obligated to help folks get off on their perversions, when someone might need the computer for something needful, like scanning job sites, or even research! Security is equipped with the ability to "see over your shoulder", so using one out of the way won't help, because there's always a camera on you. I was on a computer once, when the guy next to me was approached by Security and escorted out of the library. He said "I'm just doing my taxes" but he didn't realize that the porn sites he'd been viewing were equally visible to Security. And I once reported two teenage boys who were viewing porn. I walked by a bank of computers, and saw their screen, with a naked woman facing the camera, her legs spread wide.

Geez, get your own computer, I don't pay taxes for you to visit ugly websites like that!

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by Chimera

I've had one guy, a Grad Student, who was viewing porn right in the open area, visible to everyone who came through, and who started blubbering about how he knows that he has a problem and he's trying to get help. Sure buddy. Just get the hell out of here and don't come back.

Our university library has explicitly refused to adopt any policies against viewing pornography, or any other legal material, on library computers. The rationale is that this is a research institution, and that people might have perfectly valid reasons for looking at material that others might find offensive. If someone were busted actually masturbating, though, they would find themselves in trouble.

I think this is a good policy, although i must admit that, even if i were doing the type of work that required me to look at porn for legitimate research reasons, i'd probably still restrict such research to my home computer rather than do it in front of everyone in the library.

Basically, i like that there are no restrictions, but i also think that people should show some discretion regarding what websites they visit when in full view of other library patrons.

[Chimera]

Originally Posted by mhendo

Our university library has explicitly refused to adopt any policies against viewing pornography

That's pretty much why they refuse to block porn sites. But we have several other computer labs on campus which are not accessable to the general public and can be used for the extremely seldom classes that require that sort of thing.

If you live on campus, you have access in your room. Get a computer and get off in private.

[Ludovic]

Originally Posted by Baker

He soiled the chair he was lolling in.

im in ur chair crappin ur books

[Dung Beetle]

Originally Posted by t-bonham@scc.net

Not too long ago, we had problems with that in the local library system.

It was political. A local right-wing church had decided that the public library should not contain books that their church disagreed with. (Mainly books on sex education that mentioned gays or lesbians, or childrens books like "Heather Has Two Mommies".)

After efforts to get the books banned failed, they began an effort to steal all such books from the library. They tended to have underage juveniles doing this (extra credit in Sunday school, maybe?) or elderly church ladies. (But not the minister -- he wasn't about to risk a jail term for himself!)

You should have told them that was silly. Every time the books were stolen, you'd have to replace them…thereby putting money in the pockets of their authors!

The only problem I know of in our library is that some people seem to regard it as a free babysitting service. There are always unsupervised brats playing tag or hide and go seek in the stacks.

[Kozmik]

The up-side of being arrested/questioned by police in a library is you'd certainly be able to research your rights.

[Chimera]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

The up-side of being arrested/questioned by police in a library is you'd certainly be able to research your rights.

"Give me a minute while I look up my rights on that subject"

NO That's enough, come with me.

[Ultraviolet]

Our library system is always having trouble in the two largest branches. We have a full-time security guard at the downtown branch. We have trouble with internet patrons (looking at porn, trying to scam extra computer time, etc.), homeless people (mainly sleeping or being truly excessively aromatic), drug users (overdoses in the bathrooms, mainly), and the occassional pervert, pedophile, or physically aggressive patron. Telling people to shush is probably the least of our problems.

Actually, reading it again, it sounds much worse than the reality. Most of the time the library operates without any problems at all. It's just that when there is a problem, it's often a doozy. My favourite "problem patron" was the woman who was convinced that Queen Elizabeth was her mother, so she would write "corrections" in all of our British royalty books, and add herself to all the family trees!

[Count Blucher]

Originally Posted by OtakuLoki

The short version is that a librarian confronted an apparantly homeless man who was masturbating in the library, and he responded by trying to knife her.

As a total hijack, this proves to me that I would never be able to survive among the homeless. To be able to masturbate with one hand while slashing and parrying with the other would be beyond me. I guess the action would be similiar to someone pretending to ride a wooden hobby horse while slapping their own ass after reading a book...?

(Yippee-Ki-Yay, Wuther-fuk?)

How the hell would they turn the pages then anyway?

[burundi]

Originally posted by Sunspace
Then they need to warn users that this is a public area and private activities and information are not recommended.

What kind of birdbrain doesn't know that the library is a public area? I can't imagine that any reasonable adult would need to be warned about that. Normal people view their porn at home. Creepy pervs get a thrill out of viewing their porn in a public place.

[Baker]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

It's just that when there is a problem, it's often a doozy. My favourite "problem patron" was the woman who was convinced that Queen Elizabeth was her mother, so she would write "corrections" in all of our British royalty books, and add herself to all the family trees!

Oh, I am so going to have to pass this on the the librarians where I work! Hmm, depending on whether she thought she was older or younger than Anne, she would be either ninth or twelfth in line for the throne!

[Ludovic]

Originally Posted by Count Blucher

How the hell would they turn the pages then anyway?

You must be confusing them with a Congressman

[Count Blucher]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

You must be confusing them with a Congressman

Congressmen masturbate with one hand while swinging knives with the other? The procession to their seats at the start of the State of the Union must be one heck of a show (even before the chimp starts flinging poo).

Originally Posted by Baker

Oh, I am so going to have to pass this on the the librarians where I work! Hmm, depending on whether she thought she was older or younger than Anne, she would be either ninth or twelfth in line for the throne!

I'd check with Ultraviolet to see if this patron smelled like they'd wait 9 or 12 places in line for the throne when there was a perfectly good chair available to soil.

[Chimera]

Originally Posted by Count Blucher

Congressmen masturbate with one hand while swinging knives with the other?

Correction: Congressmen masturbate with the off-hand while swinging broken liquor bottles in their strong hand.

And believe me, the day is coming when the exact kind of liquor bottle is going to be a serious campaign issue!

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Originally Posted by Chimera

Correction: Congressmen masturbate with the off-hand while swinging broken liquor bottles in their strong hand.

And believe me, the day is coming when the exact kind of liquor bottle is going to be a serious campaign issue!

Point of order!

Emptied broken liquor bottles.

No Congresscritter would fail to drink the laaaaast drop.

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by Sunspace

What's the problem with merely viewing porn, if they aren't doing other squicky things? Can others see it? Do your computers not reset and clear their caches between user logons?

Because it's a public place? Because not everyone appreciates looking at porn?

And before anyone bring it up, it's something to be ashamed of-just that it's private. Private != Shameful.

Besides, from what I understand, some porn sites are teaming with computer viruses and spyware-I'm sure the tech staff LOVE dealing with that!

[Full Metal Lotus]

Saddly enough, the local downtown Library has its share of homeless folk who come in to get out of the cold, wet, hot.

Their policy is "you must be reading a book" (most of these types do not generally use the computers)...

So librarian walks up to person slumped over a randomly drawn book... "What are you reading?".. If the person can not answer security is called..

Regards
FML

[guizot]

In my home town there's a security guard (not a cop) who patrols a library and does...absolutely nothing. That's because nothing happens at this library. Nobody masturbating, or getting out of hand.

He just walks around and looks at people reading books, and of course, there's not much for him to do.

Man, I wish I had a job like that.

Occasionally, I think, he finds someone with a soda, and has to tell them: "No drinking in the library."

I wonder how much they pay him, how much they pay him for doing virtually nothing.

Technically, he could be an idiot.

[Beware of Doug]

Originally Posted by Dinsdale

As someone said, they are public places, so it is hard to kick someone out just because they are homeless. My daughter says some of them smell pretty bad. Maybe they should install a shower?

Some legitimate scholarly types smell pretty bad.

[Lynn Bodoni]

Originally Posted by burundi

What kind of birdbrain doesn't know that the library is a public area? I can't imagine that any reasonable adult would need to be warned about that. Normal people view their porn at home. Creepy pervs get a thrill out of viewing their porn in a public place.

We are not talking about reasonable adults here. Most of the problem patrons seem to have mental health problems.

My local branch has a cop stationed in it. Mostly she rides herd on the unsupervised, unruly kids. Sometimes we chat a bit when she's not busy. She also insists on carrying my books out to my car, as I have mobility issues.

My local branch library also has Dewey the Guinea Pig, who apparently enjoys being surrounded by books, even if she's not allowed to nibble on them.

[Blalron]

Originally Posted by chappachula

So why not signs like these:
"Nobody who reeks of vomit and alcohol allowed in the computer room"
"Anybody who disturbs the peace enough that we have to call the cops will be registered on a list --after 3 listings, you will be banned from the stacks and the computer room. After 5 listings, banned from the entire library."

Yeah, I know I'm fantasizing, and it would never get past the ACLU lawyers.
But it sure would be nice if people would use common sense instead of legal nitpicks.

I don't think even the ACLU would have a problem with those rules. The ACLU really gets a bad rap, very little of it deserved.

[TVeblen]

[quote=Ultraviolet] My favourite "problem patron" was the woman who was convinced that Queen Elizabeth was her mother, so she would write "corrections" in all of our British royalty books, and add herself to all the family trees![/QUOTE}

Queen Liz seems to be a favorite with the female mentally ill--and of librarians who deal with them. Ours, poor soul, was actually fairly aggressive. She insisted that she was the Queen's older twin. Doctors attending the royal birth inserted a silver plate in her head so she'd always be able to prove that she was the rightful heir to the throne. She was furious when we couldn't find proof of her claim.

My library has a security guard and he's needed. Most of the homeless don't give us real problems. The mentall ill who were dumped on the streets (thanks, Reagan! I hope you're frying in hell) are another matter. They come to the library because it's safe shelter--but librarians aren't social workers, and there just ain't much we can do with them or for them. He was hired when a gang decided the library was their turf and nobody else's. Fights, vandalism, books trashed and oh yeah, intimidating anybody who wasn't in their gang. They moved on the mall after being rousted from the library, but it took years to coax ordinary library users back.

The peaceful librarian life? Ha! I've been spit on, had obscenities yelled in my face, rousted drunks pissing on the furniture, booted people having yowling monkey sex on the elevator, the stacks and the readers' nook in the Children's room. That doesn't even include the furious twit waving the 9" hunting knife, going postal over a 20 cent fine.

That's why you won't hear me slagging on cops. They know what we deal with, and they're right there to help.

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

All Librarians should be issued electric cattle prodds.

The overdue problem would cease....

[Count Blucher]

Originally Posted by Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor

All Librarians should be issued electric cattle prodds.

The overdue problem would cease....

But then the 'ssshhhh' sound would be coming from the device as well as the smell of burned flesh and the sounds of wretches screaming.


Ok, I have no real problem with it as long as they change the sign to read "Public Libertine".