Let's gripe about social inequality between the sexes

[Slithy Tove]

Since this topic seems to be a sub-theme to a lot of other threads, let's just put a piece of cheesecloth over all of them and strain them out for collection into one container. Since I'm a guy, I'll complain about the crap guys take from *society, but I hope women will post-in and fight my ignorance about the abuse they endure (but if it's self-inflicted abuse, be prepared to be called on it)

*note that I'm pitting society. Below I slam no individual women, and give credit to righteous women whenever possible. Women or men are not the enemy - the monster is the enemy. Please define the monster:

The Media:
We've had threads about commercials with the "doofus husband," or which even show men receiving violence from women portrayed as funny, while the reverse would be unthinkable.

(bear in mind that most violent child abuse is commited by mothers, and approx. half the victims are boys. How about a bleach commerical with a hip, media-savvy reference to "A Child Called 'It'"?

In this thread dopers are discussing films with sympathetic male adulterers. Anaamika is as fair-minded, as a critical-thinking doper, to point out the disparity between how women cheaters are portrayed as justified, but males never.

(I'm not including the "Missing White Woman" Syndrome because it discriminates against non-white or pretty women as well as men. But whenever I see it, I can't help but think that my response is supposed to be "Aw why'd you kill her? I wanted to fuck her!")

Dating and relationships:
We've had no end of threads on this topic, which include double standards that were traditional in the pre-internet conventions for meeting and courtship, and some new ones that have developed for on-line dating.

Please feel free to share yours. Lately, mine is how the middle-age women have perfectly valid reasons to want us guys just for sex but not relationships (teenage kids, careers, etc.) while twenty years ago we guys were such pigs for wanting this same advantage. Men fear committment, while women need to be free.

Sexuality:
A year or so ago we had a male doper post in asking recommendations on synthetic vaginas. A fair-minded female doper who's name I forget posted back that she was initially skeeved-out by his immodesty, but then realized that there'd been no shortage of threads by women here on the best devices to facillitate the female orgasm.

Credit to her fair-mindedness aside, one does get the message that when a woman masturbates she's empowering herself, reclaiming her sexuality from the patriarchy, while a man who masturbates is a loser who can't get laid.


Workplace:
A lot of females aren't happy about taking up the slack for the absent mommies, so I won't include that one. But I'm tired of having to drop what I'm doing and lift things too heavy for a female to lift or crawl under her desk and connect wires becasue her butt would show if she had to. In fairness I've usually been sent on these fool's errands by a male manager who just wants the godamned thing done and is too intimidated to impose equal standards.

That one may be anecdotal, and I'm sure plenty of women lift ten-ream boxes of bond paper all day long. But plenty of other women don't because they've found a way around it and they may either feel like they've pulled a fast one on us dumb guys, or unthinkingly accept this as their due.

Talking about your menstrual period at work. I really don't care - I'm familiar with basic biological principles and I'm not threatened by them as abstract discussion topics. But then - isn't menses a reproductive fluid? I bet if I started talking about my reproductive fluid, - not puriently, just academically, mind you - I'd be out of a job faster than a horny cub scout's ejaculate.

Family Court and the overall Legal System
Plenty of inequalites here. But I may already be killing my own thread in the first post by its length, so I'll just list this as a suggestion.

Overall, the issue boils down to how people want life on their terms, which is natural. But when they twist society's conventions of justice and redressing past injustices for that selfish end, I reach for the Pit.

[Justin_Bailey]

Good topic! And here's mine...

The differences between female workwear and male workwear. Men's workwear comes in one flavor, a button up shirt that may or may not have to be matched with a tie. I've got no problem with button up shirts (although I hate ties), but I think it's unfair that I don't get a choice in what I want to wear because women's workwear seems to consist of everything from sweaters to button up shirts to fucking t-shirts (which have apparently been eupemismed to be "knit shirts").

Why can't I wear a t-shirt to work and still be considered "professional?"

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally Posted by Justin_Bailey

Why can't I wear a t-shirt to work and still be considered "professional?"

Because your breasts don't look quite as good in a t-shirt.

[tdn]

Agreed with the clothing thing.

A woman coming out of a relationship is expected to emote and talk about it. A man is expected to suck it up and deal.

On the other hand, there's the whole Real Man/slut thing.

[Cat Fight]

Yeeeah... perhaps concentrating on one topic would be easier. This is a bit across the board. But I will say that this

We've had threads about commercials with the "doofus husband," or which even show men receiving violence from women portrayed as funny, while the reverse would be unthinkable.

is a bit of a joke. Men being too dumb to change the toilet paper is seen as acceptable because that's still women's work. And it's still implied that men are off doing real work that really counts. It's not threatening. The same way we can say 'white guys dance like this!' because who the hell cares how you dance when you're getting into an Ivy league school just like your Daddy? It's still enough of a switcheroo ('Wait, the woman's running things?') to be gimmicky.

I agree that violence against men isn't particularly funny (and generally can't stand when prison rape is used as a comic device), but the idea that the reverse -- of either of these, really -- would be 'unthinkable' means you couldn't have been a TV exec or copy writer even 20 years ago. Or have never seen Family Guy.

[Cat Fight]

Originally Posted by Justin_Bailey

Good topic! And here's mine...

The differences between female workwear and male workwear. Men's workwear comes in one flavor, a button up shirt that may or may not have to be matched with a tie. I've got no problem with button up shirts (although I hate ties), but I think it's unfair that I don't get a choice in what I want to wear because women's workwear seems to consist of everything from sweaters to button up shirts to fucking t-shirts (which have apparently been eupemismed to be "knit shirts").

Why can't I wear a t-shirt to work and still be considered "professional?"

One person's freedom is another's enslavement. I definitely feel for guys stuck in suits and ties in the summer time, but I also wish I could just get a few nice pieces from Prada, some sensible shoes and be done with it. Instead many women spend thousands a season on fashionable (and occasionally painful) clothes, shoes, purses and accessories, make-up and hair (styling and dye). The last woman I know who decided to wear a pantsuit to work every day got labeled a lesbian after about a week.

[Malacandra]

Heh. In this morning's paper, the following DV case: Relationship's over but he comes round to fix her car. Argument ensues. She takes a pop at him. He hits her back. He gets two months in the pokey and a stern dressing-down from the judge. She... not so much.

[ShibbOleth]

Originally Posted by Cat Fight

The same way we can say 'white guys dance like this!' because who the hell cares how you dance when you're getting into an Ivy league school just like your Daddy?

51.8% of the Harvard Class of 2010 is female. This in line with national trends of more educational opportunities for women (and implies fewer for men).

9.8% Latino, 1.4% Native American, 10.5% African American and 17.7% Asian.

[kingpengvin]

OOOOH Womens footwear in the Office!!!!! Open toe shoes, sandles, spiked heels, runners, fricken slippers, even bare foot!!!!

If a guy had sandles in the office he'd be sent out!!

And you know what ladies? Not all of you have feet that are attractive. (Actually I find no feet attractive) Why must I be subjected to you showing them off?!?!

phew that feels better.

Another problem: If a man shows any sympathy to a child, who is not his own he's immediatly looked apon as some sort of preditor.

Example: Afew years back I was watching my kids playing (aged 5 and 6) with a friend of theirs. The other kid falls and scrapes his knee. I go to help, as the kid's parents are elsewhere, and suddenly the kid goes to me for a hug... now I feel like all eyes are on me as some sort of a creepy pervert because I do what is natural in that situation and try to comfort a crying child.

Plus being the only guy in the park with his kids gets stares as if I'm scoping the park instead of doing what every other parent is doing there, you know, watching my kids.



Now I'm feeling angry!

[Slithy Tove]

Originally Posted by Cat Fight

Men being too dumb to change the toilet paper is seen as acceptable because that's still women's work. And it's still implied that men are off doing real work that really counts. It's not threatening.

Although I personally know of no married couple where the wife's income, and therefore her respect as a professional, is considered just "pin money", I'll admit you have a point here IRT common perception: which is my point - this is the monster.

Originally Posted by Cat Fight

The same way we can say 'white guys dance like this!' because who the hell cares how you dance when you're getting into an Ivy league school just like your Daddy? It's still enough of a switcheroo ('Wait, the woman's running things?') to be gimmicky .

Of course you know that female to male ratio in undergraduate education is 1.3+ to 1. I won't even bother to look up the ratio of males to Ivy-league males. We indeed are men, but very, very few of us are "The Man."

Originally Posted by Cat Fight

I agree that violence against men isn't particularly funny (and generally can't stand when prison rape is used as a comic device), but the idea that the reverse -- of either of these, really -- would be 'unthinkable' means you couldn't have been a TV exec or copy writer even 20 years ago. Or have never seen Family Guy.

Thank you for the the fairness of bringing rape-humor into this. But I'll need examples of funny on-woman violence 20 years ago - I only remember them as being shown as stupid & vain. We'll have to debate how mainstream "Family Guy" is compared to a window blind commercial where the husband sets himself on fire.

[phouka]

I'm stuck in a conundrum.

On a first date at dinner, I always offer to pay my half, and it's a sincere offer. No man has ever taken me up on it. If it's movies or a museum, I can always make sure I get first in line and buy my own ticket, but at a restaurant, I'd pretty much have to tackle the server, which is frowned upon. It's such a strong social convention, that if I insist on paying my part, I've sent the message that I do not trust the man, do not like him, and am unwilling to go into his debt, no matter how slight.

At work, I've had male coworkers insist that they be the ones to clambor under my desk and start hooking up cables, something I'm completely capable of and willing to do. I wouldn't ask them to do it for me unless there were a valid reason I couldn't (like my leg was in a cast).

I think it's a bit like the old courtesy of men holding doors for women. When Women Libbers took offense because they felt it implied they were weak and incapable, they became the villain for being mean to men who were just trying to be courteous and thoughtful.

So, I do my best never to take it for granted but to treat it as a thoughtful gift, and I also do my best to return the favor either with a consideration of my own or by giving them the opportunity to stare down my cleavage.

[Justin_Bailey]

Originally Posted by Cat Fight

One person's freedom is another's enslavement. I definitely feel for guys stuck in suits and ties in the summer time, but I also wish I could just get a few nice pieces from Prada, some sensible shoes and be done with it. Instead many women spend thousands a season on fashionable (and occasionally painful) clothes, shoes, purses and accessories, make-up and hair (styling and dye). The last woman I know who decided to wear a pantsuit to work every day got labeled a lesbian after about a week.

But no one's forcing you (with written rules) to spend thousands of dollars on a variety of clothes. I just want to be able to wear a solid colored t-shirt just like my boss. But no, I have to look "professional."

[Justin_Bailey]

Originally Posted by phouka

On a first date at dinner, I always offer to pay my half, and it's a sincere offer. No man has ever taken me up on it. If it's movies or a museum, I can always make sure I get first in line and buy my own ticket, but at a restaurant, I'd pretty much have to tackle the server, which is frowned upon. It's such a strong social convention, that if I insist on paying my part, I've sent the message that I do not trust the man, do not like him, and am unwilling to go into his debt, no matter how slight.

How old are you? I find splitting date costs is just not that big a deal to most people under 30 and a huge deal to everyone over.

[brazil84]

Originally Posted by Slithy Tove

We've had threads about commercials with the "doofus husband,"

Yeah I really hate that. But in fairness, a lot of ads suggest or imply that a woman is a bad wife/mother if she doesn't buy a particular product. At least men are spared this sort of insult which is in my opinion a lot more offensive.

I guess men and women both should refuse to buy products that are advertised in a demeaning or sexist way. Except for beer, of course!

or which even show men receiving violence from women portrayed as funny, while the reverse would be unthinkable.

Also agree, but again, women also receive some special treatment - for example movies where violence against women is portrayed as sexy or where women are humiliated by having wardrobe malfunctions of various types.

I saw an advertisement for a recent comedy movie like that. There was a scene in the trailer where the leading woman accidentaly throws a surgical knife at the leading man. (Yes, it was supposed to be funny.) And there was also a scene where the leading woman has her skirt torn by a car door and is left standing their in her panties.

[Anaamika]

Whoa, I was mentioned in the OP. Heh, that's a common pet peeve of mine in literature, that it's OK for women to fuck around on a marriage.

Here's mine - women don't get pockets in their clothes, cause apparently it makes us look fat. Screw you, clothes makers! I want pockets!

Family court, and worse yet, men's rights regarding pregnancies. No, I will most definitely not get in a debate on this and don't even try. I'll just ignore you.

Mechanics. I had a mechanic for a good long time that didn't judge me because I was female. But there are so many out there that hear "female" and make up stuff.

More later, I'm going to eat lunch now.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Body hair on women.

I don't shave anything on my body, though I occasionally pluck a stray chin hair or dark "mustache" hair. I haven't paid much attention to my eyebrows for a good decade, as the unibrow threat seems to have retreated through the years.

My armpits are rarely on display at my job, but I have been known to wear T-shirts with the sleeves cut off, especially when commuting by bicycle in muggy Atlanta. I do wear outdoorsy shorts and 3/4 length pants to work all the time. Even though my corporate dress code is non-existant (I believe someone came to work here naked once, prior to my employment, and still works here today) I am always surprised at how many people visibly notice that I have hairy legs, regardless of whether or not their noticing affects our working relationship (extremely rare).

[Cat Fight]

Originally Posted by ShibbOleth

51.8% of the Harvard Class of 2010 is female. This in line with national trends of more educational opportunities for women (and implies fewer for men).

9.8% Latino, 1.4% Native American, 10.5% African American and 17.7% Asian.

Sorry, I meant this for the black/white comparison. (if I wanted to bring academia into the 'battle of the sexes,' I'd mention Feminist Studies).

Ack! (from Cathy). Too many quoted replies. This really is all over the place. And now I'm making it worse. Re: advertising, I do think this idea that guys come off looking 'worse' than women is ignoring, well, stuff like this -- both its ubiquitousness and normalization and the real, negative effects it can have (not to start a debate on this particular Dove ad. Not here.)

Re: clothing. true, I don't have to spend money on clothes, but there is something to be said about being able to blend into the background. i think women are judged on their clothes much more than men (especially, say, politicians). Whether too dowdy, too sexy, too butch...

[rayh]

Originally Posted by phouka

or by giving them the opportunity to stare down my cleavage.

Is that for his benefit or yours?

[Rube E. Tewesday]

Originally Posted by phouka

So, I do my best never to take it for granted but to treat it as a thoughtful gift, and I also do my best to return the favor either with a consideration of my own or by giving them the opportunity to stare down my cleavage.

You can find out more about phouka in my new book: "phouka: the Greatest Woman in the History of the World".

(apologies to Norm MacDonald)

[Sofaspud]

Originally Posted by phouka

So, I do my best never to take it for granted but to treat it as a thoughtful gift, and I also do my best to return the favor either with a consideration of my own or by giving them the opportunity to stare down my cleavage.

Why aren't there more like you out there?

Re: the OP, I've got one. Why is it that guys who look (leer, stare, drool, whatever) at women are nasty perverts, and liable to get slapped with a harassment charge (especially at work), but women can gather in large groups and loudly discuss the new mailboy's ass without reprisal?

My desk is in the middle of a large group of women (open-plan, yuck), and I hear this daily. I don't personally care, mind you, but it's irritating that I know that I can't so much as comment to my one male coworker how hot the new trainer is (and she's smokin'!) or I'll be out of a job. While the girls around here take turns discussing every. Goddamn. Male that passes by.

Grr.

[Grits and Hard Toast]

Originally Posted by Cat Fight

One person's freedom is another's enslavement. I definitely feel for guys stuck in suits and ties in the summer time, but I also wish I could just get a few nice pieces from Prada, some sensible shoes and be done with it. Instead many women spend thousands a season on fashionable (and occasionally painful) clothes, shoes, purses and accessories, make-up and hair (styling and dye).

I agree with this. I think if most men had the option (and expectation) of wearing a variety of outfits throughout the month, they would prefer to keep things simple. A well groomed, sharp dressed man, doesn't need to spend near the money and time shopping and on hair appointments etc, that a sharped dressed woman does. And although I woundn't want to have to wear a tie all day, I think that is more comfortable than nylons and heels. I think that all things considered the men have the benefit when it comes to business attire.

Another thing I think men have the advantage over women is being able to walk into bar, take a seat a the bar, and order a drink without anyone wondering what on earth he is doing there. When I do that, I feel obligated to explain myself.

The bartenders often give me such a strange look I have to tell them, "I am meeting some people for dinner, but I am early. So I thought I would just have a drink while I wait for them. If I sit here at the bar, they will be able to see me when they come in." Once I explain that, most will stop staring. I have never met a man that felt the need to explain why he is sitting at the bar.

Man goes into a new bar by himself=he must want to relax and have a drink, watch some sports.

Woman goes into a new bar by herself=she must want to get picked up.

Same with going to the race track, or off track betting place. If a man goes to the track by himself, he must be interested in betting the horses.

A woman goes to the racetrack by herself, she must either:

Be married to a trainer or jockey and is alone because they are working.

Work in the industry, and is there is some type of professional capacity.

Be looking to get guys to buy her drinks.

Be looking to get picked up.

Is a trainer or jockey groupie.

When I am asked which of these things I am, and I say I just love to watch horses run and enjoy the challenge of handicapping, people are surprised, that idea just never occured to them. But if I was a man, that would be the default assumption.

[Bricker]

Originally Posted by phouka

On a first date at dinner, I always offer to pay my half, and it's a sincere offer. No man has ever taken me up on it.

I wouldn't, if I asked you out.

But if you had asked me out, I'd make no move to pick up the check, unless it sat there an embarrassingly long time. I've always thought the onus of paying for an event lay with the host, the one who extended the invitation.

Once a couple is in a relationship, of course, finances may well dictate that you split expenses for regular dates; even then, I'd be happier with swapping off: "I'll get this one, you get the next one," kind of thing. Splitting the check while on a date just seems vaguely unromantic and nit-picky. I don't mind paying; I don't mind my date paying; I mind trying to read the receipt to remember who had the extra side order of butternut squash.

[Anaamika]

Ok, I'm back with more. These range on either side of the spectrum.

- Clothing sizes. Women's clothing sizes are stupid.

- Women in literature in general, I find. Women in literature often have to "be" something - a strong wife, a strong mother, a successful executive. Whereas men just have to be, it seems.

- Women in gaming - similar problem. I neither like to read literature about females nor play games where females are the lead, generally. I don't need to look at female sex objects. (I'd rather play games like Prince of Persia and look at male sex objects. )

- I won't even get into porn and how much it annoys me that there is so little porn for women out there. We have to resort to gay porn to see our share of man-flesh.

- The opposite of the kid thing: All women are supposed to like kids, want to hang out with them and coo over them, and we're all supposed to be ready to take up babysitting duties at the drop of a hat. I started a thread not too long ago: "Am I the only female that doesn't go ga-ga over babies?" and was gratified to see many women respond that they felt the same way.

- I agree with the menstrual thing, YUCK. The most I think it's OK to say is "I'm not feeling well, it's that time of the month" and that's a valid thing to say. No further details!

- Maternity leave as opposed to paternity leave. What, men don't want to be with their new baby?

- Re the sandals thing, I don't see why men can't wear sandals, with the right clothes. Suits don't go well with sandals, and I don't think women should wear sandals with their suits, either.

[tdn]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

- Clothing sizes. Women's clothing sizes are stupid.

Agreed. But you make up for it with having a wide selection of shoes to choose from.

Men's shoes? In my size? Mythological creatures, those.

[saoirse]

Originally Posted by brazil84

Yeah I really hate that. But in fairness, a lot of ads suggest or imply that a woman is a bad wife/mother if she doesn't buy a particular product. At least men are spared this sort of insult which is in my opinion a lot more offensive.

Actually, they do. There are plenty of ads that try to make men think they're less manly if they don't buy Product X. It's amazing the sort of hypermasculine self-image that gets projected at men, while commercials aimed at women portray them as bumbling and inadequate. And that's not even getting into the deodorant commercials aimed at young men.

[Maus Magill]

Originally Posted by Justin_Bailey

Good topic! And here's mine...

The differences between female workwear and male workwear. Men's workwear comes in one flavor, a button up shirt that may or may not have to be matched with a tie. I've got no problem with button up shirts (although I hate ties), but I think it's unfair that I don't get a choice in what I want to wear because women's workwear seems to consist of everything from sweaters to button up shirts to fucking t-shirts (which have apparently been eupemismed to be "knit shirts").

Why can't I wear a t-shirt to work and still be considered "professional?"

Actually, I like this. It make getting dressed for work much easier:
Shirt clean? Check.
Slacks clean? Check
Colors look okay together? Check
I'm good.

My wife, OTOH, has to go through several combinations because of all the options.
---------
What I hate, is how every woman at the grocery store feels like they are qualified to give me child rearing advice if my wife isn't with the boys and me. What the hell? I've been doing this for a couple of years now, and the older boy is very well behaved. Did you notice how he never once cried because I wouldn't buy Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs, unlike your hellspawn?

[nashiitashii]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

- The opposite of the kid thing: All women are supposed to like kids, want to hang out with them and coo over them, and we're all supposed to be ready to take up babysitting duties at the drop of a hat. I started a thread not too long ago: "Am I the only female that doesn't go ga-ga over babies?" and was gratified to see many women respond that they felt the same way.

I'm not hugely interested in babies, and this turns into a problem for a lot of people. One of the managers where I work brought in his baby daughter a while back, and I was the only female there and the only person who was not fawning over the kid. I did get the "are you an unfeeling alien from outer space?" look from the father of the kid, but I did at least try to make some interested noises and I asked questions about her. Apparently that wasn't enough.

I've noticed that some guys just can't handle that I'm female and smart and feel the need to put me down because of it. The same manager thinks he's being subtle about his revulsion toward my interest in things other than being barefoot and pregnant, and the latest one had to do with handwriting. His handwriting is terrible, but somehow I can still manage to read it, whereas mine is legible and mostly neat, but it's never going to be neat and clean enough to be a "handwriting" font prototype. One day he looks down at my notes and remarks on my handwriting. "Oh, you know what they say about people who write well, don't you? They say that they're not always as they appear. See, my handwriting is messy and hard to read, but what you see is what you get." I respond politely with "I had a lot of teachers in the earlier grades that would fail you if they couldn't read what you wrote, so I tried hard to make my handwriting legible." Nope, that wasn't good enough, as my legible handwriting clearly showed that I was not being forward with who I was and that I must have some sneaky ulterior motives behind my generally pleasant (and somewhat boring and geeky) demeanor. It couldn't possibly be that my personality may be more multifaceted or that I have a lot more interests than can fit into a five minute conversation!

[Rube E. Tewesday]

Originally Posted by Maus Magill

.
---------
What I hate, is how every woman at the grocery store feels like they are qualified to give me child rearing advice if my wife isn't with the boys and me. What the hell? I've been doing this for a couple of years now, and the older boy is very well behaved. Did you notice how he never once cried because I wouldn't buy Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs, unlike your hellspawn?

Yeah, I hate that, too. He's my kid, lady, and you can take your "It takes a village" crap that you'd never try on a woman, and stick it.

Oh, and because I'm out with my kid, doesn't mean I'm an access dad, looking to pick up chicks with him as a prop.

[brazil84]

Originally Posted by saoirse

Actually, they do. There are plenty of ads that try to make men think they're less manly if they don't buy Product X.

Can you give me an example?

[Maus Magill]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

- Maternity leave as opposed to paternity leave. What, men don't want to be with their new baby?

Hear! Hear! Is two weeks too much to ask when my wife had to have a C-section?

[saoirse]

Originally Posted by brazil84

Can you give me an example?

The Totota Truck commercials come to mind, which are pretty much in the same vein as most truck commercials, where you have the "big dog/ little dog" set up. I would also mention the Enzyte commercials, except I'm pretty sure those aren't serious.

[Maus Magill]

Originally Posted by brazil84

Can you give me an example?

Besides the whole "you don't really love your wife, if you don't buy her diamonds every anniversary" crap that DeBeers has foisted upon us? Thank gods Mrs Magill doesn't buy into that crap.

I could point out fast food commercials. They're always good for the "Real Men like Massive Hamburgers and Giganto-Fries" commercials.

[brazil84]

Originally Posted by saoirse

The Totota Truck commercials come to mind, which are pretty much in the same vein as most truck commercials, where you have the "big dog/ little dog" set up. I would also mention the Enzyte commercials, except I'm pretty sure those aren't serious.

I haven't noticed those. I suppose I don't watch TV at the right times.

Besides the whole "you don't really love your wife, if you don't buy her diamonds every anniversary" crap that DeBeers has foisted upon us?

I've seen diamond commercials, but none seemed particularly negative to me.

[Ludovic]

Purses. The traditionality and acceptability thereof for women.

Specifically, that there is no traditional object I'd be allowed, as a man, to take into a movie theatre without raising suspicions of sneaking in snacks or soda....which is what I'd be doing with it, of course. But women can get away with that, whereas if I tried to do it with a backpack or satchel or fannypak I bet I'd be found out.

In general, it seems like a useful item to be able to have, in between a wallet and a backpack, but if it were all that useful I'd have found a way to either wear one or find a substitute like a man's handbag with strap (I'm sure they make stuff like that.)

[Hazle Weatherfield]

I hate it when a husband is spending time alone with his child/children and people say he's "babysitting!" No, he's not!

[Anaamika]

Diamond commercials suck eggs. I mean, really, it's always:

"Show her how much you love her." (Cut to diamond picture.)
"Celebrate...the love of your life."(Cut to diamond picture.)
"For when you need to say the most."(Cut to diamond picture.)

Etc.

Slithy Tove, this is an awesome topic btw.

[brazil84]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

Diamond commercials suck eggs. I mean, really, it's always:

"Show her how much you love her." (Cut to diamond picture.)
"Celebrate...the love of your life."(Cut to diamond picture.)
"For when you need to say the most."(Cut to diamond picture.)

Maybe you don't like them, but I don't think they are insulting and demeaning as with a commercial where some woman is embarrassed because there is a streak on a plate or leftover food smells because she didn't use the right plastic bag.

I wouldn't have as strong an objection to a commercial where the dishes are sparkling because the woman used the right kind of detergent. Because that's not negative.

Similarly, I don't object to the smart woman who chooses the right hotel -- I'm annoyed by the the use of the idiot husband who has no idea what he's doing.

[romansperson]

Originally Posted by Maus Magill

Besides the whole "you don't really love your wife, if you don't buy her diamonds every anniversary" crap that DeBeers has foisted upon us? Thank gods Mrs Magill doesn't buy into that crap.

I don't think those ads are aimed at men, but at women, in the hopes that they WILL buy into that crap and get their husbands to shell out.

I'd like to think most of us (I'm a girl) are not like that.

[WhyNot]

Originally Posted by Rube E. Tewesday

Yeah, I hate that, too. He's my kid, lady, and you can take your "It takes a village" crap that you'd never try on a woman, and stick it.

(bolding mine)

Wait, what? Um, I don't know if this makes you feel any better or not, but we (women) constantly get parenting advice, even before we have the stupid things! (Children, that is.) I've had women in the produce section hand me a bunch of broccoli and tell me I'd better keep up my folic acid levels so when I decide to have a baby, my body will be ready. (This was when my kids weren't with me in the store, obviously.) The "baby bump" is like a red flag for the Pregnancy Junkies to share every bit of lore they've ever heard. And it never stops. Potty training, food choices, exercise, study habits, playgroups, schools - I even had one woman suggest to me in a Walgreens that it was about time to buy my son some condoms (he's 14 now) as he's "growing up so fast."

I mean, jeesh! Do I look that incompetent? Trust me, this one's not a gender thing. If anything, be honored that you're another "mom" despite your stubble.

[tdn]

Originally Posted by nashiitashii

Nope, that wasn't good enough, as my legible handwriting clearly showed that I was not being forward with who I was and that I must have some sneaky ulterior motives behind my generally pleasant (and somewhat boring and geeky) demeanor.

That doesn't sound sexist to me. That sounds more like he's a garden-variety jerk and/or moron.

I'd bet if you could get honest opinions of men in your department, they'd also think he's a jerk. Or a moron.

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by brazil84

Maybe you don't like them, but I don't think they are insulting and demeaning as with a commercial where some woman is embarrassed because there is a streak on a plate or leftover food smells because she didn't use the right plastic bag.

It's possible. I don't know, the other ones don't bother me as much for some reason. Couldn't tell you why.

I can kind of hazard a guess why...my culture is heavily into gold, and yes, gold is a value judgement in my culture. So it disgusts me already, and I know what DeBeers is up to and the level of their morality.

[Rube E. Tewesday]

Originally Posted by WhyNot

(bolding mine)

Wait, what? Um, I don't know if this makes you feel any better or not, but we (women) constantly get parenting advice, even before we have the stupid things! (Children, that is.) I've had women in the produce section hand me a bunch of broccoli and tell me I'd better keep up my folic acid levels so when I decide to have a baby, my body will be ready. (This was when my kids weren't with me in the store, obviously.) The "baby bump" is like a red flag for the Pregnancy Junkies to share every bit of lore they've ever heard. And it never stops. Potty training, food choices, exercise, study habits, playgroups, schools - I even had one woman suggest to me in a Walgreens that it was about time to buy my son some condoms (he's 14 now) as he's "growing up so fast."

I mean, jeesh! Do I look that incompetent? Trust me, this one's not a gender thing. If anything, be honored that you're another "mom" despite your stubble.

Well, yeah, actually that does make me feel better. I thought it was because I'm a man, and here it's just because I'm a parent. ( I can't help but think, though, that people are looking at me a bit differently when I'm out with the little guy than they do when it's my wife.)

[Rube E. Tewesday]

Originally Posted by Hazle Weatherfield

I hate it when a husband is spending time alone with his child/children and people say he's "babysitting!" No, he's not!

Hate that one, too. I'm parenting, not babysitting.

[DigitalC]

Originally Posted by Slithy Tove

Thank you for the the fairness of bringing rape-humor into this. But I'll need examples of funny on-woman violence 20 years ago

One of this days Alice POW! to the moon! [cue laugh track]

[saoirse]

But I'll need examples of funny on-woman violence 20 years ago

Originally Posted by DigitalC

One of this days Alice POW! to the moon! [cue laugh track]

Yeah, in 1987 when they were making The Honeymooners.

[catsix]

CatFight said:
Men being too dumb to change the toilet paper is seen as acceptable because that's still women's work.

You're kidding, right? You think that insinuating men are too incredibly stupid to be able to do something that wouldn't vex a five year-old child is actually insulting to women because it implies that men have real work to do?

Men are routinely berated in commercials and sit-coms as little more than walking wallets, and are piled on as their children and wives join in the berating of their complete lack of any ability to manage simple tasks like making dinner (Pizza Hut), multiply single digit numbers (T-mobile), set up a new television set without a trip to the emergency room (Best Buy) and in general do anything right other than buy their family new shiny electronics (Sprint/Nextel). While the wives and mothers are portrayed as perfect masters of the home and their careers, men are idiots good only for their paychecks.

Don't get me started on the commercial that used a rape joke to try to sell SUVs by making fun of a group of men in the woods camping who got scared and had to blaze out of there in their SUV after hearing 'Dueling Banjos'. Nobody would ever think for even one minute that a joke about women being afraid of being raped would be acceptable in an ad.

As for clothes, I'm glad I get to wear jeans and t-shirts to work. I have less variety than most of the guys here, and they don't give a damn.

brazil84 said:
Maybe you don't like them, but I don't think they are insulting and demeaning as with a commercial where some woman is embarrassed because there is a streak on a plate or leftover food smells because she didn't use the right plastic bag.

Oh I think they play heavily on the 'big dumb walking wallet' stereotype of men, incapable of actually speaking so he has to follow the script the jewelry store writes for him. They also stereotype women as stupid and materialistic creatures who equate shiny lumps of carbon with love.

Kind of like the ad where the guy is running late for some unexplained reason, the wife gets pissy and hangs up on him, and he hits the button to get directions to the nearest florist (On*Star).

[OtakuLoki]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

Family court, and worse yet, men's rights regarding pregnancies. No, I will most definitely not get in a debate on this and don't even try. I'll just ignore you.

Not a debate, but the impression I had with seeing The Monster's mommy going through family court was that having a private attorney, rather than a PD, seemed to affect both the judge's willingness to listen to arguments, and how closely the represented party will be held to the written documents.

Once there's a level playing field (either both represented by private attorneys, or both by PDs) it does seem to revert to being very gender biased.

[elmwood]

Originally Posted by Slithy Tove

Dating and relationships:
We've had no end of threads on this topic, which include double standards that were traditional in the pre-internet conventions for meeting and courtship, and some new ones that have developed for on-line dating.

Please feel free to share yours. Lately, mine is how the middle-age women have perfectly valid reasons to want us guys just for sex but not relationships (teenage kids, careers, etc.) while twenty years ago we guys were such pigs for wanting this same advantage. Men fear committment, while women need to be free.

Conisder this ... the majority of women are reluctant to date men who are shorter than they are, or even just an inch or two taller. Women I know justify this as "Darwinism in action," where they don't feel protected by a man who seems smaller than they are. They also justify their preferences with statements like "I wear high heels", "I want to feel protected", and/or "I'm short myself, and don't want to be part of a mini-couple."

Likewise, many men aren't attracted to women who are larger than they are. However, a man admitting to this will find themselves the subject of far more criticism than a woman saying that she won't date short men; he'll be labeled "picky", "sizeist", and so on. His female friends will likely tell him that he should look past the weight and "find the real her".

No, I'm not short. Just sayin ...

[WhyNot]

Originally Posted by Rube E. Tewesday

Well, yeah, actually that does make me feel better.

Good. Now, repeat after me: "Thanks so much for your input! I'll give your suggestion all the thought it merits."

I thought it was because I'm a man, and here it's just because I'm a parent. ( I can't help but think, though, that people are looking at me a bit differently when I'm out with the little guy than they do when it's my wife.)

Could be. I'm annoyed with women who assume that the men at the park are either perverts or incompetent; maybe that's what you're picking up on. There's one woman at the park near me who will pick up a child and walk off with it (not far, but to where her own children are playing) when the child has arrived with a solo dad. It's really obvious she assumes that he won't know or care to play with his own kid and that she's doing him (and the kid) a favor by taking over. I fully expect her to get arrested one of these days, but most of the guys are just so bewildered that they don't do a thing about it.

And, of course, there are a lot of mothers who call their kids off the jungle gym to their side if a man happens to walk by the park and glance at the kids.

Makes me want to give each of them some "advice" right upside the back of her head, let me tell you...

[Slithy Tove]

Originally Posted by DigitalC

One of this days Alice POW! to the moon! [cue laugh track]

Point to DigitalC, although the violence was never committed. However, come to think of it, sitcoms husbands taking errant wives over their knee and spanking them was a common before-the-end-credits gag, too.