Conjecture: "R2-D2 had Force Powers" (Discuss, Debate)

[garygnu]

It's been kinda boring around here, so there's you topic for today.

[cochrane]

Well, I'd concede Artoo has the Force if it weren't for that danged Phantom Menace! Can a non-organic being have midichlorians? Or should we discount Ep. 1-3 and just go by 4-6?

[Whack-a-Mole]

Well, if we go with the horrendous addition of Mitichlorians to the Star Wars universe then there is no way R2 could have force powers.

I was always kind of unsure of robots' status in the Star Wars universe. On the one hand they are dealt with like any other mechanical device and no one cares much. So your toaster got blasted...who cares? On the other the characters occasionally express a lot of concern for their robot companions.

Either way though no force for the robots. R2 was just wired particularly well.

[Zebra]

He does seem very lucky and Obi Wan doesn't believe in 'luck'.

But I don't think he ever sort of 'predicts' what is coming. He just responds to what's happening.

Plus, he didn't vaporize when hit in ANH.

So, I don't see it has having force powers.

[garygnu]

The exact nature of those stupid mitochlorians wasn't explained very well.
The Force is first described as an energy field created by all living things, yet non-organic things can still be mainpulated with it. R2, the X-Wing, and many lightsabers were all moved about using the Force.
R2 could possibly be able to manipulate the Force without having command and control, just enough to increase his luck.

[Bosstone]

I think they're treated more like cars than small appliances, Whack-a-Mole. There's more than a few people who treat their car like it's a member of the family and take pride in caring for it, while lots of people just use their car as a conveyance and don't give it much thought beyond that.

In one of the books that takes place after the original movies, somewhere in the Zahn trilogy, Luke mentions that ever since R2 came to him, he's never performed a memory wipe, which is supposedly routine for droids. Because of this, R2 has a much greater bank of available experiences to draw on and thus is highly perceptive, more than one would expect an astromech droid to be. This doesn't answer the question of what happened before Luke got R2, and isn't an answer from Lucas, of course.

I strongly doubt it's a Force-sensitive thing. If he's smarter than most astromech droids, it's possible all Naboolean droids are like that, and we just don't see it because the only Nabooboo droids we see other than R2 were blown away in Ep 1. It's entirely possible that had the ship's position been a meter to the left, R2 would've been vaporized and C-3PO's life partner would be R3-J9 or some such.

It's possible he was custom-upgraded by a mechanic, or there's a 'defect' in his circuitry that allows him to respond to situations with more insight than a normal AI, or any one of a number of mechanical/electronic explanations. It's also hinted at and possibly explicitly stated in some of the books that Force-sensitive mechanics also make higher quality creations, and that may have had a part in it, though no sensitivity would've been imparted to R2 himself.

[Elendil's Heir]

Say what you will about those $&%^#(@! midichlorians, R2D2 just doesn't have Force powers. No droid does, as far as we know. If Artoo did, he (it?) could have better protected himself against those pesky Jawa scavengers. Hell, he could have beeped, "We're not the droids you're looking for" to those stormtroopers in Mos Eisley. Plus, Luke and Yoda would have sensed something in the droid when Artoo was poking around Dagobah.

[RTFirefly]

Lucas wasn't just a royalist (IMHO, Return of the Jedi should be scrapped along with Episodes 1-3), but was also a carbon-based chauvinist. R2 kept his cool no matter what. When whichever of Obi-Wan or Yoda said, "No, there is another," that other should damned well have been R2D2, not Princess Leia.

[garygnu]

I doubt that it's canon, but in reading the first edition of the Star Wars Role Playing Game, I remember replacement, mechanical body parts increase Dark Side Force sensetivity/power. It could be that the Force's interaction with mechanical things is not fully and properly known or percievable to Jedi.

There certainly could be many things about the Force that the Jedi have lumped all together under the Dark Side label and stopped there, not realizing that this little astromech droid has been saving the galaxy's ass with it.

The Zahn trilogy introduces anti-Force bubbles created by creatures on a Jedi-ignored planet, along with predators that hunt using the Force on that same planet. The Jedi of old failed to even investigate the phemonemon, choosing to ignore it completely. This could be similar.

[pinkfreud]

If R2-D2 had it, would it be called the 4ce?

[Bobotheoptimist]

Originally Posted by garygnu

I doubt that it's canon, but in reading the first edition of the Star Wars Role Playing Game, I remember replacement, mechanical body parts increase Dark Side Force sensetivity/power. It could be that the Force's interaction with mechanical things is not fully and properly known or percievable to Jedi.

There certainly could be many things about the Force that the Jedi have lumped all together under the Dark Side label and stopped there, not realizing that this little astromech droid has been saving the galaxy's ass with it.

The Zahn trilogy introduces anti-Force bubbles created by creatures on a Jedi-ignored planet, along with predators that hunt using the Force on that same planet. The Jedi of old failed to even investigate the phemonemon, choosing to ignore it completely. This could be similar.

That's the coolest (or nerdiest) thing I've read all day, thanks! I'm in San Jose next month, maybe I can buy you a beer.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by Bosstone

In one of the books that takes place after the original movies, somewhere in the Zahn trilogy, Luke mentions that ever since R2 came to him, he's never performed a memory wipe, which is supposedly routine for droids. Because of this, R2 has a much greater bank of available experiences to draw on and thus is highly perceptive, more than one would expect an astromech droid to be. This doesn't answer the question of what happened before Luke got R2, and isn't an answer from Lucas, of course.

I remember that also. Did R2 get a memory wipe after RotS? C3P0 did, but R2 claimed to remember being owned by Obi-wan, which he was in a sense before being parked after Padme's death.

It's possible he was custom-upgraded by a mechanic, or there's a 'defect' in his circuitry that allows him to respond to situations with more insight than a normal AI, or any one of a number of mechanical/electronic explanations. It's also hinted at and possibly explicitly stated in some of the books that Force-sensitive mechanics also make higher quality creations, and that may have had a part in it, though no sensitivity would've been imparted to R2 himself.

Didn't work that way for C3PO, did it? Anyhow, I can't think of any instance of R2 doing anything that seemed to involve the force. The closest is walking across the corridor at the beginning of ANH without getting hit, but C3PO did that also, and Jedi don't seem to be able to halt blaster bolts without a light saber.

[Push You Down]

...nobody has mentioned Skippy the Force Sensitive Droid?

From Wiki

"In one issue of the Star Wars Tales comic series, there is a story that R5-D4, or Skippy the Jedi Droid as he's called, is force-sensitive, due to the concentration of midi-chlorians within his oil. When chosen by Luke, Skippy senses that R2-D2 will be important for the future, and so blows his own motivator and influences the choice of R2-D2. Most say the R5 series was poorly designed from the start, which is stated in the book "The Essential Guide to Droids."

[Troy McClure SF]

Originally Posted by pinkfreud

If R2-D2 had it, would it be called the 4ce?

...

Go over to FARK and sit there. We'll let you know when you can return.

[Bosstone]

Originally Posted by Voyager

Didn't work that way for C3PO, did it?

Hey, I'd like to see you try to implement 6 million forms of communication in a fully-functioning if naive and prissy AI at the age of 9.

[DrFidelius]

Originally Posted by Voyager

Anyhow, I can't think of any instance of R2 doing anything that seemed to involve the force. The closest is walking across the corridor at the beginning of ANH without getting hit, but C3PO did that also, and Jedi don't seem to be able to halt blaster bolts without a light saber.

Uncle Owen almost bought a different R2 unit, but it blew its circuits at a very convenient time.

Coincidence? I think not.

(If R2 has ninja, um I mean Jedi powers, he is not trained in the use of the Force but is just an instinctual User.)

[RTFirefly]

Originally Posted by Voyager

I can't think of any instance of R2 doing anything that seemed to involve the force.

Hell, I don't recall Luke doing anything involving the Force until Obi-Wan took Luke under his wing. The mythology, as developed through the first two movies, didn't seem to exclude the possibility of sentient robots' being open to the Force. Only with RotJ did that change.

[garygnu]

Originally Posted by DrFidelius

Uncle Owen almost bought a different R2 unit, but it blew its circuits at a very convenient time.

Coincidence? I think not...

That's what got me thinking about this in the first place. R2 was kinda freaking out at the time, too. He was also able to con Luke into taking off the restraining bolt.

[Ike Witt]

Originally Posted by RTFirefly

Hell, I don't recall Luke doing anything involving the Force until Obi-Wan took Luke under his wing.

Wasn't his ability to bullseye a whomprat in his T16 indicative of his force sensitivity?

[OneCentStamp]

Originally Posted by Push You Down

...nobody has mentioned Skippy the Force Sensitive Droid?

From Wiki

"In one issue of the Star Wars Tales comic series, there is a story that R5-D4, or Skippy the Jedi Droid as he's called, is force-sensitive, due to the concentration of midi-chlorians within his oil. When chosen by Luke, Skippy senses that R2-D2 will be important for the future, and so blows his own motivator and influences the choice of R2-D2. Most say the R5 series was poorly designed from the start, which is stated in the book "The Essential Guide to Droids."

How the fuck did midi-chlorians get in his oil?

This whole thing is just bizarre.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by garygnu

He was also able to con Luke into taking off the restraining bolt.

To be fair, it's really not that hard to con Luke.

[OneCentStamp]

Originally Posted by Captain Amazing

To be fair, it's really not that hard to con Luke.

Ah, yes, the many sides of Luke in Episode IV:

"You know about the rebellion against the Empire??" [/childish doofus]

"But that's a whole nother yeeeeear!!" [/whiny, ungrateful little bitch]

etc. etc.

[Terrifel]

"Hold on there! Where do you think you're--"

*bleep beep bleeeeeep boop beepity beep boop*

"Er...Bleep beep bleep, boop beepity beep boop."

*piyoot woooooop*

"...Piyoot woop. Piyoot woop."








--R2-D2, doing the Jedi Mind Trick. Just in case that wasn't obvious.

It's better if you imagine him waving his little gripper arm around mystically while beeping.

[Danalan]

Are we absolutely certain that there isn't some sort of organic component in an R2's construction? Certainly possible that there is an organic quantum computer in there somewhere. If so, then that solves the mito-whatit'swhoses problem.

As far as R2-D2 using the force, I think maybe -- but only sub-consciously, to affect his luck.

Then again, I can't believe I've been sucked into a discussion about imaginary robots in an impossible universe. Clearly, the force is not strong in me.

[Terrifel]

Originally Posted by Danalan

Are we absolutely certain that there isn't some sort of organic component in an R2's construction? Certainly possible that there is an organic quantum computer in there somewhere. If so, then that solves the mito-whatit'swhoses problem.

Clearly, somebody needs to track down Kenny Baker at a con and ask for a blood sample.



I always imagined that if you opened R2 up, right in the middle there'd be a wired-up, disembodied human head.

It's probably his resemblance to a Dalek that suggested that to me.

[H3Knuckles]

Originally Posted by Push You Down

...nobody has mentioned Skippy the Force Sensitive Droid?

From Wiki

"In one issue of the Star Wars Tales comic series, there is a story that R5-D4, or Skippy the Jedi Droid as he's called, is force-sensitive, due to the concentration of midi-chlorians within his oil. When chosen by Luke, Skippy senses that R2-D2 will be important for the future, and so blows his own motivator and influences the choice of R2-D2. Most say the R5 series was poorly designed from the start, which is stated in the book "The Essential Guide to Droids."

OneCentStamp, you've either been whooshed, or it's wikivandalism. It's pretty well established that Force control is only for organic beings (see C'Baoth in Zahn's Dark Force Rising trilogy, for one). It is a big deal in the Tales of the Bounty Hunters book that 4-Lom takes it upon himself to try and learn to perceive and use the Force. Or how about the Jedi student of Luke's (Nichos Mar?) who's body is dying, and his consciousness is transferred into the body of a droid? He "lived," but lost the ability to utilize the force.

R2-D2 is unusually lucky. Probability still exists, even in SW's universe. Add to that the fact that the R2- series is known for independent thinking, creativity, and above-average intelligence. Lastly, he hasn't had his mind wiped in something like forever, as far as we know (I highly doubt the Naboo got memory wipes for their droids, not if they hold special awards ceremonies for them whenever they do something right*), which would give him a remarkable degree of insight. Unlike poor C-3PO, who's probably had his mind wiped so many times it's a wonder he can walk and speak at the same time.

And no, it's pretty thoroughly established (such as in the Essential Guide to Robots) that the droids of Star Wars are purely mechanical. Anything more is still considered a Cyborg. Hell, Guri (Shadows of the Empire; Xizor's assassin/attendant/mistress/spy) is considered a cyborg and everything about her was created in a lab. For those who don't know, she's like a terminator. Droid innards with an artificially made organic exterior (plus, she's got some sort of cloaking or sheath that conceals her artificiality even under a direct scan, IIRC).



*Dumbest SW scene ever. Nothing Jar-Jar does compares to the "Thanks for being the sole survivor and doing your job, please give him an extra-thorough oil bath!" moment.

[H3Knuckles]

Oops, make that "See C'Baoth's comments about R2 in..."

Darn edit window.

[Bobotheoptimist]

I have long believed that, due to the extended period without a memory wipe, R2 has gone from a standard AI to true sentience. I seem to recall that it's implied in AotC that droids are not mass-produced by machinery. Thus, although an assembly line could produce a fairly uniform production run, anomalies like R2 would not be difficult to justify. A demo or beta model with enhanced features that proved to be too expensive or complicated for the factory to make many, or maybe they were prone to develop individuality that was considered undesirable and redesigned. Naboo would then have bought returns and floor models, being rather unwarlike in disposition.

But no Force, I'd say.

[Bosstone]

Originally Posted by H3Knuckles

*Dumbest SW scene ever. Nothing Jar-Jar does compares to the "Thanks for being the sole survivor and doing your job, please give him an extra-thorough oil bath!" moment.

Concur. I'm not even sure what the purpose of that scene was, except perhaps to emphasize that this is THE R2-D2 and he's now a Player Character, to use an RPG term. [/geek]

[Push You Down]

Originally Posted by H3Knuckles

OneCentStamp, you've either been whooshed, or it's wikivandalism.

It's neither. Star Wars Tales was a comic anthology series telling usually OUTSIDE of canon stories. One of which is the Skippy the Jedi Droid. It's not meant to be canon but it is still a star wars droid using "the force" in a slightly comical story.

[mlees]

Originally Posted by Danalan

Are we absolutely certain that there isn't some sort of organic component in an R2's construction? Certainly possible that there is an organic quantum computer in there somewhere. If so, then that solves the mito-whatit'swhoses problem.

As far as R2-D2 using the force, I think maybe -- but only sub-consciously, to affect his luck.

Then again, I can't believe I've been sucked into a discussion about imaginary robots in an impossible universe. Clearly, the force is not strong in me.

How do we know it wasn't Luke's Force powers that blew up the other droid, not R2D2's?

[Shawn1767]

I don't know if this has been contradicted, but the way I keep midichlorians in line with my belief in how the force works is this: Midichlorians do not "cause" the force. They are merely a sign of having good force skills.

For this analogy: Charisma=the force, friends=midichlorians. Someone who has a lot of charisma would have a lot of friends. Therefore, if you saw someone and saw they had a lot of friends you could infer that he had a lot of charisma. So, people are drawn to people with lots of charisma just as midichlorians are drawn to individuals with the force. Therefore a high midi count would indicate someone stronger in the force than someone with a low midi count. That's how I keep it straight in my head without contradicting the hope that anyone could become strong in the force.

Now if anyone could point me where this idea might be contradicted... I would not appreciate it...

[Revenant Threshold]

Originally Posted by Push You Down

It's neither. Star Wars Tales was a comic anthology series telling usually OUTSIDE of canon stories. One of which is the Skippy the Jedi Droid. It's not meant to be canon but it is still a star wars droid using "the force" in a slightly comical story.

Yep. I have the comic in question, actually (well, I say "have", it's in the attic somewhere). They basically took the droid that Owen initially picks and built up a backstory for it. He also levitates things.

[MJinks]

Originally Posted by garygnu

The Zahn trilogy introduces anti-Force bubbles created by creatures on a Jedi-ignored planet, along with predators that hunt using the Force on that same planet. The Jedi of old failed to even investigate the phemonemon, choosing to ignore it completely. This could be similar.

I think they were called the Ysalamari. Didn't that series also introduce the idea of Kortosis metal being immune to lightsabers, or was that established earlier?

I always liked the Zahn books, I love the Talon Karrde character.

[KneadToKnow]

Originally Posted by OneCentStamp

How the fuck did midi-chlorians get in his [i]oil?

Project Mayhem: Tatooine Branch.

You should always say, "Clean oil, please."

[Taber]

Originally Posted by OneCentStamp

How the fuck did midi-chlorians get in his oil?

This whole thing is just bizarre.

Well, millions of years ago, there was this jedi dinosaur...

[garygnu]

Originally Posted by Taber

Well, millions of years ago, there was this jedi dinosaur...

...named Quigonosaurus.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by RTFirefly

Hell, I don't recall Luke doing anything involving the Force until Obi-Wan took Luke under his wing. The mythology, as developed through the first two movies, didn't seem to exclude the possibility of sentient robots' being open to the Force. Only with RotJ did that change.

They didn't show it, but I bet that him hitting wamp rats (or whatever) in Beggar's Canyon was possible due to him using the force.

I can see the droid blowing out as an example. Convincing Luke, no. R2 could be clever without needing the Force to explain it. He is clearly a droid genius, due, I think, to him never being memory wiped, having lots of time to think between episodes, and not resenting it like Marvin.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by mlees

How do we know it wasn't Luke's Force powers that blew up the other droid, not R2D2's?

Maybe Obiwan was crouching on the other side of a hill or something. He did turn up rather conveniently the next day.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Voyager

The closest is walking across the corridor at the beginning of ANH without getting hit, but C3PO did that also, and Jedi don't seem to be able to halt blaster bolts without a light saber.

Darth Vader did; blocked it with his hand when Han tried to shoot him. In one of the books ( I, Jedi I think ), that kind of energy manipulation is described as a rare talent, which explains why most Jedi use sabers.

[Ranchoth]

I should probably bring up the Iron Knights. Though, technically, they're not droids, they're an exotic form of cyborg...part machine, part silicon based crystaline lifeform. (I don't even know if there's a proper term for that. Cycrys? Cybicon?)

If they can be force sensitive, it doesn't seem entirely impossible that a droid couldn't be, depending on what SW droids' brains are composed of. It might have to do with relative complexity—like if, by analogy, a vat-grown organic brain was capable of accessing the force, but a collection of vat-grown ganglion couldn't.

Or, like others have said, if even an organic brain was damaged, brainwashed, or raised in severe isolation, maybe it couldn't access the force—not unlike a typical droid who might be built with a low IQ, used as a slave, and/or had it's brain reset on a regular basis. So maybe if most droids couldn't use the force, it just means Kasper Hauser, a fresh Nexus 6, or Randal McMurphy couldn't do it, either.

[E-Sabbath]

R2 is not a force user.

R2 is, however, a badass. He is the _only_ character who knows exactly what's going on at all times. He knows who Luke is. He knows where Luke is. He's the one who talked Skippy into blowing his top. He kicks seven kinds of ass and doesn't bother to take names.

R2 is everything Han wishes he could be. And nobody notices, cause all he does is go boop.

[Whack-a-Mole]

Originally Posted by H3Knuckles

It is a big deal in the Tales of the Bounty Hunters book that 4-Lom takes it upon himself to try and learn to perceive and use the Force. Or how about the Jedi student of Luke's (Nichos Mar?) who's body is dying, and his consciousness is transferred into the body of a droid? He "lived," but lost the ability to utilize the force.

How do you explain General Grievous then? Or Darth Vader?

Grievous was not a Sith but according to this he has a high midichlorian count. While not trained specifically in the use of the force I think he still benefited from an affinity for it and of course he was about as mechanical as they come while still having an organic brain.

Vader of course was still mostly human but with significant mechanical support yet it seemed to hinder him not at all.

[Amp]

Originally Posted by E-Sabbath

R2 is not a force user.

R2 is, however, a badass. He is the _only_ character who knows exactly what's going on at all times. He knows who Luke is. He knows where Luke is. He's the one who talked Skippy into blowing his top. He kicks seven kinds of ass and doesn't bother to take names.

R2 is everything Han wishes he could be. And nobody notices, cause all he does is go boop.

R2 is Chuck Norris... in the future!!!

[The Understander]

Originally Posted by Amp

R2 is Chuck Norris... in the future!!!

-50 geek points, nerf herder!

[Revenant Threshold]

Originally Posted by Taber

Well, millions of years ago, there was this jedi dinosaur...

... named Desann.

[Amp]

Originally Posted by Enfant Terrible

-50 geek points, nerf herder!

Fine, fine, R2 is Chuck Norris in a galaxy far, far away. (Which may or may not be in the future)

[garygnu]

Originally Posted by Bobotheoptimist

That's the coolest (or nerdiest) thing I've read all day, thanks! I'm in San Jose next month, maybe I can buy you a beer.

I somehow missed this earlier. Thank you. I'm going to try and be at the Dopefest in San Fran on Nov 3rd, which is technically next month.

[Elendil's Heir]

Originally Posted by Amp

Fine, fine, R2 is Chuck Norris in a galaxy far, far away. (Which may or may not be in the future)

What part of "A long time ago" don't you understand?

[Sleel]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

Darth Vader did; blocked it with his hand when Han tried to shoot him. In one of the books ( I, Jedi I think ), that kind of energy manipulation is described as a rare talent, which explains why most Jedi use sabers.

To back this up and flesh it out, this was mentioned in the novelization of The Empire Strikes Back. If I remember right, the writer explicitly said that he didn't use his mechanical arm to just take the damage, but that he actually absorbed the energy through the Force. Foreshadowing the encounter between Luke and the Emperor in Jedi when Luke tries to deal with the Force lightning.

There's also stuff from a comic book series that a friend of mine has. It's set after the Battle of Endor, and Luke has started sliding toward the Dark Side. His powers are shown as being demi-godish. At one point, he blocks a blast from an AT-AT cannon with the Force.

I think that R2-D2 is just really good at analysis, is more creative than a 'droid has any right to be, and he's got more experience than every single character in the story — with the exception of Yoda — since he's never been wiped during the course of something like 70–80 years, and has been involved in crisis after crisis. He's mastered being in the right place at the right time and has always been good at figuring out what to do to get things working again.