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#1
11-08-2007, 11:46 PM
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Am I breaching my son's right to privacy?
Inspired by the thread about catching your 10 year old looking at porn on the internet - I was reminded of my current situation. My 11 year old son has grown up with a pc in the house, and when he became old enough to 'surf' and the like, I installed Trend which blocks content that you choose. It's brilliant - doesn't even let home pages load. So, then he decides he needs an email address and proceeds to collect a long list of contact so that he can chat on msn. No biggie. A couple of weeks ago I was doing a routine scan when I received a porn alert, telling me that the porn has been sent via chat. I set up a log on his desktop and told him that I am now monitoring his chat logs and if anything obscene is sent to him again - I'll be calling the parents. He is very cool about this and my take is that as he is only 11, I have a duty of care and an obligation to monitor what he says, receives and looks at. However, I have been told that what I am doing is a terrible breach of his rights. Exactly what rights does an 11 year old have - apart from the right to a loving, caring home that feeds, clothes and shelters him? Am I wrong?
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#3
11-08-2007, 11:51 PM
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Oh, please. Whoever told you that you were breaching his rights is full of shit. 11 years old- well, yeah, you should be monitoring his internet experiences! Yes, yes, a thousand times yes, you are in the right. Privacy with regards to usage of a computer in your home is NEVER a right that kids should have, in my opinion. My computer, my house, my rules.
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#4
11-08-2007, 11:54 PM
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I think as long as you tell him anywhere and anything he sees on the internet YOU will or could see--then it isn't an issue. With our daughter (age 12) she has known since she first got on a computer that it was all an open book. We have always told her that she wants privacy to get a diary. But online it is an open book. We do randomly go to her web sites and to her MySpace account and read them. I occasionally mention some site I saw she was at (to keep her honest!), and we haven't really had any issues. So to sum up--in my opinion your son has no right to privacy on a computer.
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#5
11-09-2007, 12:03 AM
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In the example given, his "right' to view such images is nonexistent, as evidenced by age checks, both on-line and in the real world. While the courts struck down some forms of on-line age checks last week, they did not strike the constitutionality of the the underlying age restrictions.
If we argued the rightness/wrongness of parental rights over children I (a parent of an adult child and a minor teenager, but also an abused child) night well argue the other side of the fence, but as far as the law goes, it's really hard for a parent to violate a child's rights. Sexual abuse would do it, but we still live in a world where parents hold almost every right of a child in (presumptive) custody, yet can dismiss the corresponding responsibility and throw teens on the streets to fend for themselves or starve, without prosecution.
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#6
11-09-2007, 01:12 AM
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I'd love to know who told you that you were violating his rights.
Your home, your PC, I'm assuming you pay the electric bill, and for the ISP. What "privacy" is an 11-year-old entitled to? Especially since you've found him dealing in porn? I think it's nice to tell him upfront as you did that you would be monitoring his activity. While not wrong, it's a little disrespectful to monitor someone, even a kid, without their knowledge even though I believe it's your responsibility and right to do so. I grew up in a house where I knew that although I had a room and a door, my parents could walk in whenever they wanted to. They didn't make a habit of barging in whenever, but it also meant that I thought twice about bringing unsavory materials into the house. Of course when I moved out at 18 everything changed completely!
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#7
11-09-2007, 01:28 AM
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#9
11-09-2007, 08:27 AM
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Just another person adding that your son has no "right to privacy" on the computer. His privacy is limited to the thoughts in his brain and the parts of his body. Period. While you may choose to grant him the privilege of privacy on the computer some day, that's what it is - a privilege.
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#10
11-09-2007, 08:31 AM
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You should definitely tell him upfront that you are watching (and it sounds like that's what you've done). I think it's kind of underhanded when parents make the kid think they have privacy, and then catch something and spring it on them unexpectedly. But aside from that, I agree with the other posters: it is your house, your kid, your rules, period.
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#11
11-09-2007, 09:19 AM
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There are certain things a child is entitled to. Love, food, education, housing, clothing, things like that. One might argue for extended things like their own bedroom or Christmas toys, so I'll go for those too. A computer, and especially internet access, is not one of them. You can take it away and still be a good parent.
He has a right to privacy in the things he must have, like conversations with a classmate, or things he gets for himself, like a diary. He has no right to privacy on things he doesn't need or things you give him, like the computer. If there's a complaint, say "The deal is, I give you the computer, you use it on these terms. Accept or decline."
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#12
11-09-2007, 09:27 AM
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You are the parent, therefore you are the law. You write the constitution of the household.
You determine what his "rights" are.
__________________
There is no theory of evolution. Evolution is a fact. The theory is of how it happened. “Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.” -Dr. Seuss "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"-Diderot
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#13
11-09-2007, 09:44 AM
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I'm going to somewhat disagree with what seems to be the general sentiment of the thread. IANA parent, but I never agreed with the whole "my house, my rules" justification. While it may be true, it only serves to confuse children about why you're doing what you're doing. That is, you're not monitoring him because you can, just because it's your computer and your house, you're doing it because you're watching out for his safety. IME, children respond much more positively when your motivations are transparent, as opposed to the parental cliché "because I said so".
Children do have inherent rights, among them is privacy; however, this isn't even a matter of privacy. Just like when you use the internet at work, or the library, you agree to rules that they've set forth which, more likely than not, bans the viewing of pornographic material. It's not a whole lot different in this situation, except for the motivation. That is, they do it to protect themselves legally, or whatnot... you're doing it to protect your child. The one point I do heartily agree with, is that you are straightforward about monitoring him. If he thinks he has privacy, he'll be upset when he feels like it was violated, but if he knows that you're monitoring him and he gets caught doing something he shouldn't, he won't have a leg to stand on. Now, IANA parent, but
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#15
11-09-2007, 10:09 AM
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"My house, my rules" does, IMO, serve as a valid shorthand for the appropriate balance of authority and responsibility in certain aspects of a parent-child relationship. And it is a valid bottomline for certain disputes. I'd be interested in seeing an expanded list of what you consider to be childrens' "rights", as well as an explanation of the source of them. IMO, when you get beyond food and shelter, to a far greater extent children enjoy privileges which they must earn or otherwise show they deserve and can handle.
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#16
11-09-2007, 10:15 AM
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#17
11-09-2007, 04:44 PM
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It would be irresponsible to NOT monitor your child's internet use. You wouldn't allow him to watch absolutely anything he could find on TV. You wouldn't dream of letting him go see every movie that comes out or read every magazine that is publish. Why would you allow him to view every webpage ever created.
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#18
11-09-2007, 05:00 PM
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Last edited by Ghanima; 11-09-2007 at 05:01 PM. Reason: spelling
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#19
11-09-2007, 05:08 PM
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#21
11-09-2007, 05:37 PM
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Okay this is going to sound weird but why can't an 11 year old look at porn? I mean obviously my gut reaction is that 11 year old + explicit pornography = negative but why exactly? What changes between 11 and 18? I'm just genuinely curious. What happens to a child of any age that is allowed to just go ahead and watch something like porn or extreme graphic violence. The first time I saw these things I was younger than legal and hid it just like everyone else in the world. What would have happened if I hadn't have had to hide it. I still would have seen the same porn right?
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#22
11-09-2007, 06:44 PM
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Early exposure to porn has been shown to be linked to attitudes in adulthood that are supportive of sexual violence towards women. Young boys are more likely to become sex offenders, and young girls are more likely to accept being sexually offended.
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#23
11-09-2007, 06:59 PM
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#24
11-09-2007, 07:12 PM
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In all honestly in my opinion over protective parents (such as yourself IMHO) almost urge their children to rebel. Children naturally wanna say no to authority even if it is for there benefit. Its almost like reverse psychology. Dom't you remember when you were a kid? anythings your parents could do to enforce there rules you could find a way around. What happens when he goes to a friends house and watches porn. Or buys a porn DVD at school? Are you going to put a GPS on him and shock him every time he walks pass a porn shop? In all honestly my humble opinion is that giving children more freedom will not make them rebel as much.
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#25
11-09-2007, 07:21 PM
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#26
11-09-2007, 07:33 PM
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It isn't clear in this country (the United States) whether ADULTS have a legal right to privacy. While nearly 40 years ago Roe vs. Wade used a right to privacy to make its case, since that point more than one person has made the case that the right of privacy is not spelled out in our constitution and is, if anything, only implied.
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#27
11-09-2007, 07:39 PM
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I think that the very definition of parent is one who would be concerned about the world their offspring is exposed to, whether online or off. You are well within your rights to block or ban this.
But not as a top down, My Word is Law kind of thing. I told my kids that the internet was like two things: a carnival and a downtown bus station at 4 am. Lots of cool things to look at and do, but lots of uncomfortable, creepy and danger, too. Between the years of 11 and 18, many things happen. The brain physically grows, but also the higher levels of thinking mature (this can take longer than to just 18), the ability to think abstractly develops along with the ability to think critically (we hope). Would I be happy if my 18 year old was into porn online? No-but that's unrealistic on my part. That's his/her choice at 18. At 11? No. And it is not a choice for him/her.
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#28
11-09-2007, 07:52 PM
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Thanks all for your input. The comment about being overprotectiveness leading to rebellion is an interesting, if not well informed one. I believe that children need to be given freedoms, because giving them limited freedoms gives them the opportunity to prove that they are trustworthy and teaches them responsibility. It's also about knowing how an eleven year old's mind works. Two weeks ago he was home alone in the afternoon and I was on my way home when he rang to tell me that he'd set off a firecracker and had burnt his hand.
I wasn't angry with him - I was angry with his father who had left him alone with a firecracker and a promise not to light it. WTF? Of course he's going to light the frigging thing - a boy, alone, firecracker. Hmmmmm. How much impulse control does an 11 year old have - none. That's why we have boundaries, rules and supervision. We now have a new rule - if it requires a naked flame, you probably shouldn't be playing with it. Oh, and I found out how fast my car can go.
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#29
11-09-2007, 11:32 PM
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You are exactly correct. Children living at home have no rights. Period. They can earn privileges, which can be revoked at any time, but they have no rights.
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#30
11-09-2007, 11:35 PM
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I think what your doing is perfectly fine. You seem to be open with your kid about what your doing. I cant see a child rebelling against a parent who is open with them.
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#31
11-10-2007, 05:20 AM
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Meh, personally I don't make it easy for my kid (14) to access porn. But if he's going to do it; I'm not going to get all worked up over it.
There are some things a determined kid can do that parents have no control over. I mean really, think back when you were 11. Just make sure they have at least one foot grounded in reality and that they treat women with respect and all that other stuff that goes with it.
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#32
11-10-2007, 09:15 AM
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I wouldn't go this far. Children do have rights, or should have. The right to be safe, warm, dry and fed. The right to be loved. The right to be treated with respect. The right to be heard. And the right to make decisions and choices within their scope. but I would ixnay the porn. The firecracker? I'd like to shove one up the dad's ass and light it. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
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#33
11-10-2007, 09:51 AM
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You are not breaching his right to privacy if he does not have the expectation of privacy. I am an adult and own my own laptop. I fully expect that the other adult in this house will not snoop at my doings, and I respect his computer privacy the same way. A child needs to be monitored, but also needs to be told right up front that they will be monitored. I hate the snooping aspect of some people's parenting with the "My house, my rules" stuff, but I think a responsible person would tell a child in the home that all activity on that computer is subject to frequent monitoring to avoid viruses, malware, etc. That way if you find something objectionable, they can't cry "Oh, my privacy!" The computer should be no more private than the refrigerator. Open access to all if it's a kid's own or a family shared computer.
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#34
11-10-2007, 10:58 AM
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There also seems to be some rather fast and loose interpretation of scholarly articles on some websites making claims about the links between childhood exposure to pornography and later incidences of violence. For example, this site claims: Quote:
Also, note in the first sentence the use of the term "related." This is another one of those "connecting" terms that implies causation to many people without ever actually demonstrating causation. Someone reading that section of the website casually could be forgiven for thinking that the link between childhood viewing of pornography and adult sexual violence is causal, but the study in question doesn't make that claim. Sure, the website also notes that "every child who views pornography will not necessarily be affected and, at worst, traumatized in the same way," but the main emphasis is on the dangers of pornography, and the simple summary of the scholarly source misses some important issues. The study cited in that quote, above, is W. L. Marshall, "The Use of Sexually Explicit Stimuli by Rapists, Child Molesters, and Nonoffenders," The Journal of Sex Research 25, no.2 (May 1988): 267-88. I downloaded a copy of the study (no link; it's an academic subscription database) and had a look at what Marshall has to say. He (?) is quite careful throughout not to make simplistic causal arguments related to childhood exposure to pornography. For example, he is sympathetic to Quote:
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Citing another study, Marshall notes: Quote:
His own study, upon which this article is based, uses Quote:
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Oh, and to the OP: there's nothing wrong with what you did. Also, like some other folks here, i like the fact that you're upfront with him about your monitoring of his internet activities. That's much better than doing it behind his back.
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#35
11-10-2007, 11:32 AM
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But this doesn't support your premise that "viewing of porn and other aberrant behavior among children and adolescents might even travel in precisely the opposite direction" at all.
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I had never heard about this early exposure leads to deviance premise. That sounds shaky to me, but I do think that exposure to porn before one is sexually aware can be disturbing. That's my opinion as a mom. I completely agree with the poster upthread re adults and privacy and computers etc.
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#36
11-10-2007, 11:46 AM
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Upon rereading, I think you mean that those who are already deviant (or delinquent) may search out porn, not the other way around. But I was framing my response in terms of the OP's son. But there is also a chicken and egg thing here-we may never know which comes first (and porn is seen as an adult thing, much like smoking. Rebellious kids/teens may take to it to "prove" their independence/"maturity"). But that is not quite the same as what you posted, IMO.
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#37
11-10-2007, 11:49 AM
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And you're right that we might never know which comes first for any particular person, but given that millions of people manage to view porn without ever committing sex crimes, i think the burden is on those who imply a causal chain leading from porn to violence.
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#38
11-10-2007, 11:52 AM
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I have never quite understood why in America one can drive at 16, go to war and die for America at 18, but not drink alcohol until age 21. Likewise, why is it ok for young people to watch video of mass killings, and even engage in simulated murder in graphic video games, yet it is not ok to see a pair of breasts? Nudity/Sex is natural... Rambo-like killing is not.
Last edited by Desert Nomad; 11-10-2007 at 11:53 AM.
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#39
11-10-2007, 12:40 PM
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They didn't have the Internet when I was a kid. So, having sort of figured out I was Gay by the time I was five, but not being able to put it in words, I can remember I was about 10 years old the day I went to my local downtown book store and happened upon a thin little book with psychological definitions. One definition was of "homosexuality" - the first "real" description I had ever read about people like myself.
I stuck the book in my shirt and walked out. I ran home, locked my bedroom door and read that chapter. I read, and re-read that chapter several times over the years whenever I thought I was alone in the world. My point of this journey down memory lane is that kids, even at that age, have a right to find information. Yes, I agree that overt porn is NOT appropriate at that age, but I hope your internet blocking does not exclude sites that might cover information your son might want to find out about, but not necessarily talk to you about. I wish I had had access to that information at that age - it would have made my teen years a hell of a lot easier to get through.
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#40
11-10-2007, 07:37 PM
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I think it's okay to see a pair of breasts on a grown woman in a movie or a photograph if she's bathing or nursing or getting dressed or something similar -- and you are a pre-adolescent. That's not pornography. But if she is being objectified and her breasts shown only for the purpose of (ahem) titiliation and arousal, then it's not appropriate for a pre-adolescent. Some would consider it pornography. The parent is exercising appropriate supervision for an eleven year old. By the time he is fifteen, talking about what's real and what's not would be more valuable. (Also, talking about what's valuable...) Don't shield them too much or make a big production of it. You don't want lots of John Ashcrofts running around covering up statues.
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#41
11-10-2007, 08:01 PM
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I feel compelled to point out that kids sending pictures of their naughty bits to each other over an IM network makes their parent/guardian a producer, distributor, and consumer of child pornography.
Just a thought for when they get a little older!
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#42
11-11-2007, 02:47 AM
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11-year-old living in your house has no right to an expectation of privacy.
QED.
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#43
11-11-2007, 01:29 PM
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Well, there is a difference between what I did as a kid and what I did as a kid that my parents condoned. Did I find porn? Yep. Did I read trashy books my parents wouldn't approve of? Yep. Did I drink before I was legal? Yep. Did I go 'farther' with boys than my parents would have approved of? Yep. Did I do my darnest to hide all this and fully expect to get in trouble if I was discovered? Yep. That kept me from doing it too much and too often - and going farther than I would have. I "expect" my kids to do all of these things as well. And I expect that if they get caught, they will face my disapproval and get punished.
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