Am I a Boy or a Girl?

I’m nearly 21-years-old. Shouldn’t I know by now?

There have been a lot of threads in which I would’ve liked to have participated on these boards over the course of time I’ve lurked here (perhaps two years? Though I’ve only subscribed just this past January), but have avoided doing so because it would have “outed” me. Not as a homosexual. As someone who is physically female.

I do not know if I’m so reluctant to reveal that because I should start introducing myself as Mr. Objection!!, because I’m flooded with feelings of unnecessary happiness when I am “mistaken” for male, or because I am still actually female and am merely ashamed of it due to a deeply rooted misogyny.

While we are on the subject of misogyny and homosexuality: I am acquainted with quite a few intellectual, independent, masculine, heterosexual women, and I certainly admire them. I realize that because I do not try to “pass” as a man physically, people generally tend to perceive me to be a strong intellectual woman as well. While, I’m flattered to be seen as akin to them, at the same time, it often deeply hurts to be reminded that I am physically female and that people perceive me as such.

I use the word “often” in this case, and therein lies the most problematic issue: My gender identity seems to fluctuate based on time and circumstance. There are times in which I know for certain that I am gay man; even questioning it seems ludicrous. I just know. Whether it is a conscious statement of fact or an unconscious slip of thought. (There was a good friend whom I was absolutely enamored by in high school, but knew I wouldn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell with him. In sophomore year of college, after not communicating for nearly two years, I heard from a mutual friend that he had come out as homosexual, and saying “my heart leaped in a pang of hope” is really the only way I can describe what I felt in that moment, until the realization dawned on that that no, no wait, I’m not actually physically male.) It is during these moods that my reflection doesn’t make sense, that I feel compelled to bind my chest and detest my hips, and cannot stand being referred to as “she” or “Ms.”

Then there are other times where I am okay with wearing make up or having long hair and looking “pretty” rather than masculine. Most of the time, this is due to a strong desire to attract some guy I like, but every so often, I do just “want to feel pretty”. And then my mindset will randomly change back to “But I’m male” and I’ll feel a strong dysphoric “This isn’t right” that overwhelms my ability to properly interact socially.

There is also a third gender-related mindset that I often find myself in, and that is one where I am not conscious of my gender. And, as how Spanish takes all the Neuter words in Latin and makes them Masculine, when I am forced to consider my gender in this third mindset, I will default to masculine, but am not distressed when I am referred to using female pronouns.

If I could just permanently stay in one of these mindsets, the issue could be resolved by permanently altering my appearance to that of the preferred sex, but this fluctuation prevents me from making a decision. So I could just identify as genderqueer, but that still doesn’t alleviate how much it hurts to be referred to as female during the times I feel that I am not.

To help clarify (or perhaps further complicate) the situation, I do not believe I’ve always had these three gender identities in conflicts with one another. Memories of my early childhood are few and far between, but the second memory I ever had that I can recall is of my four-year-old self looking up at my father and wanting to be “strong and tall like him” not realizing that could never happen. I think after that, ever since I was made aware that I was a girl, I had been actively trying to emphasize the differences between myself and my older brother*, through gender appearance and activities and through other means as well (I may have purposely done very poorly and acted out in elementary school to prove I wasn’t a genius like him). This hyper-feminine behavior and interests lasted until I was around 10, when my brother left home for college. I remember thinking the day he left that I had to replace him in my parents’ eyes so they wouldn’t be sad. From then until I myself left for college, I acted and dressed like and considered myself a boy geek (though I never told anyone I thought of myself as male, for fear of ridicule), as if I took it upon myself to become my brother. In college, I met some friends who, though they considered me asexual, managed to get through to me that sometimes it is okay to be a girl, and I had my first ever female teacher that I could identify with (all the ones in high school who had made it through to me had been male). So now, it is okay to be female, sometimes, except when it’s not, which is most of the time. :smack:

I suppose it would also be useful to point out the gender structure of my family. I was (not intentionally) raised to believe that intelligence is the most important thing about a person. My brother is a genius. My father is certainly a very intelligent man always striving to learn more about the world. My mother… does not consider intelligence to be terribly important. She seems to consider knowledge as a means to get a better job, and therefore support yourself better, but knowledge for the sake of knowledge is a foreign concept to her. We often had a nanny, who was always an older woman of foreign heritage. These nannies never came across as very intelligent to me as a child due to a language barrier. I assume through this and other influences, I came to believe that being rational and intelligent were masculine traits (obviously, I know that to be false now, but probably still feel that way a little unconsciously), so, if I considered myself as such, it made sense that I was male.

/rant
There are several women on this board who have revealed that they were born male-bodied, but I am unaware of the number of men who post here who are female-bodied. I seem to vaguely recall a thread with such a query perhaps three or four months ago with little to no response. I believe there was one person who identified as genderqueer. So I ask all those here, whether you are transgendered or born with the correct genitalia, when and how did you know you were what you are?

(I apologize if my manner of speaking or usage of quotation marks around certain terminology offends anyone. I do not mean to marginalize anyone else’s way of life.)

*He is also on these boards and may happen upon this thread. My perceptions of you as a child were not well-founded, and my perceptions of your childhood today are perhaps not entirely accurate due to this.

Eh… unzip your pants. If you’ve got an innie, you’re a girl. An outie, you’re a boy. Simple as that.

That is one way but I am lazy. I just asked my mother to read what it says on my birth certificate.

You should move to Finland, where they don’t have gender-specific pronouns in their language.

Or you should just relax and be a person.

Nope, of course it’s never a simple as an unzip and glance. Sexuality comes in all shades and permutations. I see that as a real credit to the ability of human beings, with such good developed brains and all, to have nuance and shadings in complex concepts.

You identify as male, though with a biological female body, and desire males sexually. Well, no problem to my mind, as to who you are, but, probably problems fitting in with society. Although, you are young, and are in the process of understanding yourself, and that’s a process, to figure that all out. Don’t be ashamed of your particular difference from the norm. You have as much a right to your inate being as anyone else.

I’m a hetero femme, but very open minded to everyone else’s sexuality. This board has a lot of good folks in that regard, and I hope those more versed in gender issues can give you better well-weathered advice.

Mine is; follow your heart, and never think you are odd. You are just as important as anyone else, in desire, whatever difference had from the norm. Do whatever you do with good heart, be true to yourself, as you see yourself.

Perhaps I’m repsonding to this with a GQ mindset, but gender is a physical actuality. Chromosomes determine gender. Sexuality is a psychological mindset, and may be a variable, but not gender.

Plenty of females like sports, enjoy blowing things up, wear their hair short and wear flannel, or want to experience active penetration in sex. Disatisfaction with breasts and hips seems rampant amongst women today. What in the world makes you think you’re male, rather than just have tomboyish tendencies?

Find yourself a nice boy who thinks he’s a girl. You can be the Man and he can be your Wife. And to hell with what ever the world thinks.
Just a though.

What an interesting glimpse into a different mindset. I don’t recall coming across any female-born transgendered people on the boards, but I know that there are plenty of groups online, though you might encounter… problems in some circles, even progressive ones. Probably because, as tends the case with most transgendered people, there is a tendency for transgendered people to raise and reinforce gender (vs. sex) stereotypes. I’ve often wondered if transgenderism or sex reassignment requests have been affected by changes in men’s and women’s roles in society, or if there is just too much baggage there (biological or not)…

Anyway, I hope you get the support you need. I’m sure you’ll find that ‘aha’ moment when you come across an article or story from someone who’s gone through this before. Ever read Middlesex? (not exactly the same thing, I know).

Hi, and a friendly wave across the chasm from AHunter3, a self-described heterosexual sissy.

I’m definitely physically male, I have found some male people I find admirable and personable but I still don’t tend to feel like I belong among them; and I often feel total revulsion for my gender. I won’t say bad things about all men / all the time but there are some appalling and incomprehensible behaviors I see evidenced by a great many males a very large portion of the time. I have no problems with the bod itself, I’m used to it and I don’t go around feeling like I was really really supposed to have tits and ovaries, but it seems to me that I’d be good at being a female person, it would “fit” better socially and personally. And yeah, I’ve sometimes said I should have been a lesbian. (It’s a sentiment that gets scowled at by lots of lesbian women, something about guys who think it’s cute to say “gee I’m a lesbian trapped in a man’s body”)

There’s no good name for it, is there?

HOLD IT!!

I’m physically male and identify as male. But I feel like I have a gender neutral personality. My entire life I’ve had a pretty much equal amount of male and female friends, and have noticed that I don’t particularly fit in with either. I’ve noticed there are definitely male and female personality attributes, and I don’t really have either of them. I’m just some…well, not some guy, just some…person. It’s kind of weird.

Actually, my parents are in the habit of speaking Mandarin at home, and Mandarin also has no gender-specific pronouns, so they’re pretty bad at confusing he and she when referring to people in English anyway (nevermind that my dad still can’t get my and my brother’s names straight; I think that’s a separate issue).

Also, I’d love to relax and just be okay with being a person, I honestly would, but I find the task to be a lot harder than most people claim.

Thank you for your thoughts and support, but this interpretation isn’t entirely correct. If I could honestly say I knew that I was male 100% of the time, I would not find the issue so difficult to resolve. My problem is that sometimes I don’t actually know if I’m truly a man or just a woman who was taught to be ashamed of being a woman and thus wants to be a man due to a twisted unconscious misogyny. Once I get my own head figured out, facing society itself shouldn’t be so much of a problem. I learned at a young age that the majority of society can go fsck itself, and I should do what I feel is right. :cool: (Now if only I could figure out what was right…)

I am using the term “gender” to refer to gender identity, which is something that some believe (myself included) is a psychological mindset separate from both sexual orientation and physical sex. The closest thing I have to cite offhand is that the wiki article on gender cites the Encyclopedia Britannica: gender identity is “an individual’s self-conception as being male or female, as distinguished from actual biological sex.” It being wikipedia, take that as you will.

As for your ultimate question, I was asked a similar question by a psychiatrist (imagine that) who was perplexed by my particular gender issues, even having dealt with transgendered clients before, and I have that exact same feeling of frustration of my own inability to properly articulate why I think what I do. He had wanted me to explain how I knew I was male (when I knew). And I found the question very difficult to answer. While I would give anything to be able to answer by pointing at my crotch and smirking, I’m afraid I will never have that luxury. At the times when I am in a certainly male mindset, I can state deliberately in my thoughts that I am male without any cognitive dissonance backlash (until I look in a mirror), or it will come up in my thoughts accidentally revealing that I was considering myself male unconsciously. This is further complicated by the fact that I am not what one considers traditionally masculine. I do not prevail at sports for one, nor do I enjoy them vicariously. I do not wear my hair short, but that is mainly because I am Asian, and personally feel that Asian hair tends to look ridiculously spikey and awful when short. If I actually were physically male, I would be considered by society at large to be a geeky weepy pansy. My conception of masculinity is one of emotional distance and solidarity, the prevalence of reason and intellect, a quiet strength that does not dominate others, and a subtle sadness over the self-imposed loneliness of the human condition. This quite different from what the majority of society considers “manly”. Argh. I realize this is a very bizarre concept to grasp for those who have never personally been confused as to their own gender identity, and for those same reasons, I’m afraid I find it increasingly difficult to extrapolate on a topic that I myself currently find ambiguous. Apologies.

While a lovely idea, I’m afraid that by considering herself female, I may (or may not, it would depend on the person in the end, I suppose) find myself unable to be attracted to her, as I am mostly only attracted to men. This has happened among former lesbian couples in which one of the two realized he ought to be living as a man, which unfortunately causes his lover to no longer find him attractive because he was now the wrong gender.

Honestly, I can understand how that might occur. And I realize that I would be hard-pressed to find answers in such an environment considering my “out there” gender beliefs.

I have not read Middlesex, but it sounds interesting enough, even if not the same thing.

We differ on a few points, but you’re right, there are no good names for either of our variations. While you are used to your body and feel revulsion for men in general at points due to certain actions, I still feel awkward at times in my own skin and have no qualms with the female populous as a whole, only the strange notion that I am not one of them, despite my genetic makeup.

What you described is interesting, and, if I understood you correctly, a bit similar to the third mindset I sometimes possess, being gender neutral; though in my case, if I had to smack a gender identity on myself during that time, I’d have to default to male. It may differ for you, but you did say you identified as male.

…I think I’ve just started rambling at this point. Thinking too hard.

Wait a minute though. Now, I have no cites to back any of this up, but I have a vague recollection of a TV documentary where they explained that a person can be one gender genetically and the other gender physically, or any combination thereof. Essentially that gender is anything but a clear assignment. Maybe I didn’t explain that very well… Anyone else see that show? Was it on “Nova”?

Oh, and by the way OBJECTION!!, welcome!

There are a large handful of developmental disorders that can cause a mismatch between genetic sex and phenotypical sex. Genes don’t directly control sexual differentiation. Instead, genes determine whether a person has ovaries and testes. The ovaries and testes secrete the sex hormones at very precisely timed points called the critical periods.

There isn’t a perfect link between having one set of sex organs but developing as the opposite sex. There are disorders like androgen insensitivity order in which the person’s body and brain don’t respond to their own sex hormones so their bodies and brains stay female which is the default state.

There are other disorders that cause these types of mismatch. The general public tends to call them hermaphrodites which isn’t really accurate. Real hermaphrodites are exceptionally rare and they mean that the person has both testes and ovaries. However, pseudohermaphrodites and related disorders are far from rare and they are routinely dealt shortly after birth.

I have to admit that it is an interesting mindset from a psychological perspective, and differs from traditional gay/straight sexuality roles we (as a society) are really only just coming to accept, albeit grudgingly for many. I have absolutely no problems with either concept; I am a straight male and self-identify as such, and have no issues with the LGBT community either – actually, if anything, though I do not identify with them in that regard, I do very strongly support their fight for acceptance and equality, and consider dissenting/hostile views on homosexuality both as archaic and ignorant, and as having no place in society. I find your mindset fascinating because at first blush it comes across as strange (in a curious, not “ur a freak ha ha!” way): Physically, you’re a female, emotionally and sexually, you are attracted to males, yet much of the time you self-identify as a gay male, which subtly yet fundamentally alters the way you approach sexual attraction. For all outward appearances any relationship you have with a man would look perfectly ordinary (in the societal definition of the word), but internally the whole relationship comes from a different place entirely – most of the time, anyway.

What is striking though is that your description of masculinity – the one you consider to be at odds with the “manly” stereotype – is how I self-identify. That is not to say that I consider it to be normal, because I’ve never felt like I really fit into any particular segment of society. Nonetheless it struck me as interesting because you seem to feel that it is perhaps part of the reason you can’t seem to settle on any one identity. I think maybe the reason for that is because there is a certain level of femininity to both your identification of masculinity and my own self-identity. That’s not to say I feel female, and I don’t particularly act female, but I do seem to have a closer connection to my own emotions than what might be deemed strictly acceptable by “manly” standards.

I’m not really sure where I’m going with that, but it seemed worth mentioning anyway.

Sounds like you and I have some things in common.

I’m female and heterosexual but contrary to stereotypes…
I have always loved math and science. I’ve got an engineering degree. I feel much more comfortable around a bunch of guys then a bunch of women. Not in a sexual way. I just think more like they do.
I don’t own or wear any makeup. I have 1 purse, and that’s because some much women’s clothing doesn’t have pockets. I occasionally put on a dress, heel and “do” my hair. I always feel like I’m wearing a costume when I do. I don’t own a curling iron, and my hair drier gets used only when my mother is visiting.
I hate shopping. My SO is much better then I at both cooking and cleaning.
I have no desire to coo over babies. I’d rather be building a computer or fragging aliens.

What does that mean? It means I don’t fit into the social norm of what women are like. It means I’ve decided not to care (yes, I had to decide that) and to be happy with what I am and who I like. I’ve found friends and an SO that like me the way I am. I’m me and I’m happy with it.

I’m going to have to join the bandwagon and disagree with you here. Gender is as much of a continuum as anything else in life, and just because he has a vagina, doesn’t make him a girl.

Consider, for instance, a transsexual who has not yet had surgery. Is he/she the gender that he/she identifies as, or the one he/she was born as? Is it necessarily the genitalia that determines gender? The SDMB, although full of intelligent people, has some strange views when it comes to transgender people. (Most recent one here , and although I know it has nothing to do with trans people, that’s what it devolved into).

Also, welcome OBJECTION!!

chaoticbear, gay male (usually).

I don’t think anyone has such deeply-rooted misogyny that they ever forget that they are physically female. But I don’t know, I am not a mental health professional. You don’t sound like a deeply misogynistic person. If you were, you probably wouldn’t worry about your feelings about your male identity being motivated by misogyny. I don’t doubt that your childhood shaped your identity. Your identity probably also shaped how you view your childhood. I don’t know if it is something you could change if you wanted to.

When I was growing up, my mother worked as a nurse at a fairly large clinic dedicated to children born with intersexuality. There’s a far cry from recognizing those children born with physical deformities involving their genitalia and declaring that there’s a spectrum of gender.

Perhaps the OP (or anyone else who claims to be a different gender than their biology indicates) can enlighten me by explaining what difference she (or he? I’m not quite sure what pronoun Objection wants to be referred to with) sees between between a relatively masculine female and being an effete male; what are examples of the dichotomoy you’re living with that confuses you so much?

In this day and age, most of the roles traditionally associated with being a man (going to work, for instance) are no longer considered to be abnormal for a woman to aspire to. Even male standards of dress no longer are out of bounds for a woman.

It’s not just getting by with three pairs of shoes, right?

I’m sorry, I didn’t catch this before posting my last response. I suppose this is what I was looking for, although I still don’t think that non-dominating strength is a masculine trait: a tendency towards domination is one of the key differences between male and female psyches that I’ve noticed. Similarly, noting the loneliness of the human condition isn’t something I, as a man, deal with and recognize as part of my male-identification.

Perhaps I just don’t see any of those things you’ve identified as separating you from other women I’ve known… and I understand if you can’t enunciate what it is about your mental psyche that makes you feel like you’re not a woman.

Either way, though, I still do think that using ‘gender’ as a term to describe a difference in cultural psychology is improper.

Okay, let’s break this down. You’re a woman who identifies as male. So you’re a transexual. But you’re attracted to men, so you’re a gay male transexual. But you still sometimes like to dress girly. So you’re a gay male transexual drag queen. The whole thing couldn’t be more simple. The only question left is: How you doin’? :wink:

For what it’s worth, you’re not the first gay male-identified, biologically-female to post to the Straight Dope. We had another a few years back, but I don’t think he posts here anymore.