"Often" - pronounced with or without the t?

[Johanna]

I'm going to a speech clinic staffed by university students in their early 20s. I think they get graduate level coursework credits for this work. I'm more than twice their age.

They asked me to practice with the word "often" and they both said it with the t. Like "oft" followed by -en. Growing up in the '60s, I had learned to say it without the t: "offen." When I asked them if young people nowadays all pronounce the t, they were surprised to be told that anyone didn't pronounce it.

Is this a generational difference? Did the spelling pronunciation take over in recent years?

I'd be interesting in knowing--Do you pronounce the t in "often" or not, are you American, and what's your age?

[OBJECTION!!]

20. American, east coast, public school. I specifically recall being taught in school to pronounce it without the T.

[Runs With Scissors]

38, American, and I never pronounce the t. I do hear others pronounce it, though.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

25, East Coast American, raised by English parents. I pronounced it with the T when I was younger. As I've gotten older, it's disappeared.

[Ephemera]

25, American, offen.

[Inner Stickler]

19 and American. Used to say it. Realized I didn't say it in words like soften. Stopped saying it.

[An Gadaí]

25, Irish. ofTen but I'm sure some people say offen and maybe even interchange a little bit. Here's one "mirr" or "meerawr" for mirror?

[Sunspace]

44. Southern Ontario. I say "offen" and "soffen". And "meerurr".

Check out the vocal samples thread! This is prime material.

[Paul in Qatar]

I am a 50 year-old American, originally from Maryland. I pronounce the "t," but I am an English teacher and so pay great attention to my speech.

[Koxinga]

Oh, dash it all! Here we are again!

[fisha]

I pronounce the T. My husband gives me shit about it consistently.

[bibliophage]

I say "offen." All my dictionaries and grammar books prefer that form. One book calls pronunciation of the T "overnice." It does seem to be a trend that words are more often pronounced as they're spelled. Other overnice examples include clothes (with propnounced "TH") and alms and almonds (with pronounced "L"). But on the other hand, I've yet to hear calf with pronounced "F."

[emmaliminal]

I grew up saying the T, but had it beaten out of me in dialect class in acting college. I also had to learn not to aspirate the H in "when" etc. I'm 38, American, grew up in Ohio and Washington state.

[Johnny L.A.]

Orphan.

[elfkin477]

offtin

[straykat23]

Really old. Northern California. "Offen," "soffen," and "mere ur."

[panache45]

Originally Posted by Johnny L.A.

Orphan.

"When you said "orphan", did you mean "orphan", a person who has lost his parents, or "often", frequently?"
--- Gilbert

[Hostile Dialect]

Historically, without. Recently, with, possibly because a lot of people think the original pronunciation was a mistake. (I'm answering the question in the title, not the OP--that is, "is it pronounced this way" (by people in general) vs. "do you pronounce it this way".)

I am American, BTW, and I'm 21 years old. I'm pretty sure I don't pronounce the T. My dad claims that he pronounces the T, because otherwise it's "lazy English"--I think he really believes that he does, but that he's lying to himself and to me. Haven't ever paid enough attention to say for sure one way or the other.

[BiblioCat]

43, Mid-Atlantic US.
Offen. No 't'.

[Siam Sam]

Growing up in West Texas, I never pronounced the T in "often," but my parents were both from elsewhere, so I don't know if that was because of local usage or the household environment. But even there, I did hear many people pronounce the T.

American Heritage dictionary has the following Usage Note:

"During the 15th century English experienced a widespread loss of certain consonant sounds within consonant clusters, as the (d) in handsome and handkerchief, the (p) in consumption and raspberry, and the (t) in chestnut and often. In this way the consonant clusters were simplified and made easier to articulate. With the rise of public education and literacy and, consequently, people's awareness of spelling in the 19th century, sounds that had become silent sometimes were restored, as is the case with the t in often, which is now frequently pronounced. In other similar words, such as soften and listen, the t generally remains silent."

[Johanna]

OK, I guess it doesn't track generation-wise after all. Maybe it was just a coincidence that I came across two twenty-somethings who use the spelling pronunciation. I reached an understanding with them that they'll say it their way and I'll say it my way.

For my part, it always seems strange to me that the L in almond isn't supposed to be pronounced. I've got my own share of spelling pronunciations. I gather that the T in often is heard more in British pronunciation.

[Malacandra]

Originally Posted by panache45

"When you said "orphan", did you mean "orphan", a person who has lost his parents, or "often", frequently?"
--- Gilbert

"Exactly - You said 'often', 'frequently', only once!"

Originally Posted by Johanna

For my part, it always seems strange to me that the L in almond isn't supposed to be pronounced. I've got my own share of spelling pronunciations. I gather that the T in often is heard more in British pronunciation.

I'd always pronounce it (but I might not if I were an errant member of the House of Lords), and I also pronounce the L in almond.

I'd never pronounce the T in soften, but that's no guide on how to pronounce often - English doesn't work like that, and there's no etymology in common between the two words.

[Kyla]

I grew up on the west coast of the US and I pronounce the t.

I teach my students to pronounce the t, too. (I teach EFL.) I figure the spelling in English is fucked up enough that when there's a choice, I teach them to pronounce things phonetically. Just one less word that they have to remember is pronounced differently from the spelling.

[TheLoadedDog]

Been beaten to the G&S stuff, I see...

"Offen" Late 30s, Sydney.

[Telperien]

Twenty-nine, from the southern United States, offen.

You don't want to hear me say "comfortable," though.

[fishbicycle]

49, Canadian. I leave out the 't'.

[Eleanor of Aquitaine]

I pronounce the 't', and I have a pretty thick southern accent.

Telperien, "comfortable" only has three syllables around here.

[fachverwirrt]

Here's what the OED has to say: Often [offen] ...the pronunciation [of-ten], which is not recognized in the dictionaries, is now frequent in the south of England, and is often used in singing. (I don't know how to do IPA, so I've simplified the phonetic spelling.)

As a singer, I'll say that I hate it when singers say [of-ten] because it just strikes me as wrong, and an unnecessary extra consonant that gets in the way. I imagine that singing it [of-ten] is a Britishism; I certainly would never expect it over here.

[Telperien]

Originally Posted by Eleanor of Aquitaine

I pronounce the 't', and I have a pretty thick southern accent.

Telperien, "comfortable" only has three syllables around here.

That's how I say it unless I concentrate.

[Dragwyr]

39 from SW lower Michigan. I pronounce it without the 't' sound.

[BobLibDem]

American (Michigan) 51. I was always taught that pronouncing the "t" was incorrect and a sign of a poor education. Never have, never will pronounce that "t".

But on the other hand, I've yet to hear calf with pronounced "F."

??? I assume you meant "L".

[nikonikosuru]

21, F, Michigander. I pronounce it with the T. I was originally surprised that I'm in the minority, but then again I've been told by others that I have "interesting" speaking habits.

[Paintcharge]

Originally Posted by bibliophage

But on the other hand, I've yet to hear calf with pronounced "F."

Originally Posted by BobLibDem

??? I assume you meant "L".

That one confused me too.

36. From Maine. No "t" in often.

It bugs me nearly as much as "accrost" and "heighth."

[jackdavinci]

33, Long Island NY

It's more a matter of conventional vs formal speech for me. In normal conversation the T fades out, but if I were reading a poem out loud or something I might pronounce the T.

[Lionne]

Offen.
26, grew up in Massachusetts.

[Litoris]

35, white female grew up in Tennessee.

This is funny, because it is one of the few words that I pronounce both ways. There is no rhyme or reason to it, I just notice that sometimes I say the "t" others I don't.

Due to having a very AR great-grand aunt who loathed badly pronounced words, I make a point of pronouncing the "wh" in words like "who, what, when, where and why" -- it is never just "w."

[Troy McClure SF]

25, white, California- offen.

[gigi]

Northeast US, no T.

[Ghanima]

I honestly don't know. I think I pronounce the T. But I'm not sure. It's like breathing. When you think about doing it, it ceases to be natural. I'd have to catch myself off-guard somehow.

[FairyChatMom]

Originally Posted by BiblioCat

43, Mid-Atlantic US.
Offen. No 't'.

Ten years older, but same answer otherwise.

[MadTheSwine]

i say ofTen and correct anyone who says offen

[fachverwirrt]

Originally Posted by MadTheSwine

i say ofTen and correct anyone who says offen

Based on what, all the dictionary cites that state that [offen] is not only correct, but indeed generally preferable?

There's nothing wrong with [of ten] per se, but there is certainly nothing wrong with [offen].

[photopat]

43 - Midwesterner, never pronounced the T.

[Rhiannon8404]

38, born/raised/live in Northern California. I pronounce the T. I think I'm the only one I know who does, though it's possible I just don't pay enough attention.

[ratatoskK]

52, northeast U.S., everyone I know says "offen"

[amarinth]

mid 30s, west coast US:
I don't pronounce a clear "t" but there is a kind of stop in the middle of "often" that isn't in the middle of "soften."

I also know I pronounce the "L" in "almond" after having been mocked for my bizarre Northern Californian pronunciation of that word after my family moved away from northern California.

[Beware of Doug]

41, Upper Midwest transplant to the Northeast. "Offen."
I often heard "off-ten" growing up in Iowa, but I heard "offen" just as often, if not more often.

[PastAllReason]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

American Heritage dictionary has the following Usage Note:

"During the 15th century English experienced a widespread loss of certain consonant sounds within consonant clusters, as the (d) in handsome and handkerchief, the (p) in consumption and raspberry, and the (t) in chestnut and often. In this way the consonant clusters were simplified and made easier to articulate. With the rise of public education and literacy and, consequently, people's awareness of spelling in the 19th century, sounds that had become silent sometimes were restored, as is the case with the t in often, which is now frequently pronounced. In other similar words, such as soften and listen, the t generally remains silent."

This quote really struck me. I pronounce the "d" in handsome and handkerchief, the "p" in in consumption and raspberry, and the "t" in chestnut. Huh.

[Bambi Hassenpfeffer]

Originally Posted by PastAllReason

This quote really struck me. I pronounce the "d" in handsome and handkerchief, the "p" in in consumption and raspberry, and the "t" in chestnut. Huh.

I can buy three of these, cause so do I, but you really say "rasp berry" and not "razz berry" and "hand kerchief" instead of "hankerchief"?

[PastAllReason]

Originally Posted by Bambi Hassenpfeffer

I can buy three of these, cause so do I, but you really say "rasp berry" and not "razz berry" and "hand kerchief" instead of "hankerchief"?

Yes, yes I do. No one has even looked at me like I'm insane, or even commented on it for that matter. To be clear, though, it's not like when I'm enunciating I say it with a significant pause between "rasp" and "berry" or between 'hand" and "kerchief".