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  #1  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:02 AM
Rusalka Rusalka is offline
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Who feeds morbidly obese people?

Recently in the news there was an account of a woman who died of complications resulting from obesity. Apparently she never left her bed/couch after she got too heavy, and she lived with her family. I hear a lot of these tales, so my question is: who feeds these people? How does someone get so large without help from others - any insights?
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  #2  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:40 AM
bouv bouv is offline
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Their family, spouse, and friends. Their enablers true and true. Some are in denial that their loved one is as big as people say, others know but they want them to be happy, and others know but just don't care at all.

Oh, and some know and continue to feed them because they like them as big as possible. It's a phenomenon known as "feeders," and it's usually men feeding their large (and getting larger) wives/girlfriends, and often they post pictures online and brag about how big they've gotten their SO.
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  #3  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:17 AM
tonedef tonedef is offline
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Sorry but I cant help but laugh at the idea of a bunch of guys bragging about who has the fattest missus. It just seems a lot different than most males who wouldn't be caught dead tagging a fatty.

Anyone got any links to these sites?
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  #4  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:41 AM
friedo friedo is offline
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People with such severe food addictions, like drug addicts, can also be extremely manipulative. I vaguely recall seeing one of these specials on severely obese people on TV. One of the subjects, after a couple days of shooting, had two of the camera crew sneaking in food for her from the outside. These were experienced documentary-makers who know not to get involved with their subjects, but they did anyway.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:42 AM
Wee Bairn Wee Bairn is offline
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I can see someone feeding them at home, but why do the obesity clinics allow people to "sneak" them in food? Can't they have a guard up front checking for that?
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  #6  
Old 11-29-2007, 10:40 AM
Sitnam Sitnam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonedef
Anyone got any links to these sites?
Just bizarre.

another one

Last edited by Sitnam; 11-29-2007 at 10:43 AM..
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  #7  
Old 11-29-2007, 10:49 AM
UntouchedTakeaway UntouchedTakeaway is offline
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Originally Posted by tonedef
Sorry but I cant help but laugh at the idea of a bunch of guys bragging about who has the fattest missus. It just seems a lot different than most males who wouldn't be caught dead tagging a fatty.

Anyone got any links to these sites?




VCNJ~
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  #8  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:17 AM
Malacandra Malacandra is offline
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Originally Posted by Veuve_ClicquotNJ



VCNJ~
Well, that took three posts, and two and a half hours, longer than I expected.

--Mal, a fatty.

Last edited by Malacandra; 11-29-2007 at 11:17 AM.. Reason: "Fatty" is nominative, not vocative. Hard to tell in English.
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  #9  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:29 AM
norinew norinew is offline
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I'm not sure there's one factual answer to the OP that would make the question fit in GQ. Sure, some of it (maybe a majority of it) involves family members/friends enabling the super morbidly obese person to eat. Some of it, as someone else pointed out, is extreme manipulation on the part of the obese person. One TV documentary I saw on subject, the obese man had a whole "system" in place for ordering home-delivery food. He had a bucket on the end of a rope hanging out of his bedroom window. He would call and order food (a great deal of it, most of the time, sometimes several times a day), would lower the money down to the delivery person in the bucket, the delivery person would put the food in the bucket, and the man would pull the bucket up to his bedroom, using the rope.

I think comparing this kind of eating to drug or alcohol addiction is fair and accurate. And like other addictions, the addict will manage to get his/her fix.

Perhaps some family members realize the futility of refusing to feed them, knowing they'll just turn around and spend way too much money getting someone else to do it.

It's a sad, difficult situation, without an easy answer.
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:30 PM
Hazle Weatherfield Hazle Weatherfield is offline
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Seriously, food may be the most difficult addiction to deal with. It's the only addiction that you actually must continue (in moderation!) in order to survive. Can you imagine being an alcoholic or a herion addict and being told that you still had to have a drink or a fix every day?
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  #11  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:37 PM
OneCentStamp OneCentStamp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veuve_ClicquotNJ



VCNJ~
What, exactly, are you rolling your eyes at here? The poster? The phenomena he's describing?
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  #12  
Old 11-29-2007, 01:40 PM
diggleblop diggleblop is offline
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Last year there was a thread on this topic that got to be a few pages long. It had a lot of great answers in there, links as well. I'll do a search for it and post what I find.
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  #13  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:18 PM
bouv bouv is offline
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Originally Posted by OneCentStamp
What, exactly, are you rolling your eyes at here? The poster? The phenomena he's describing?
I imagine the usage of the term 'fatty', which is a bit insulting.
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  #14  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:23 PM
DeadlyAccurate DeadlyAccurate is offline
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Originally Posted by Sitnam
A warning: though the links Sitnam posted are SFW, there are NSFW pics on that site.
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  #15  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:45 PM
OtakuLoki OtakuLoki is offline
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Yanno, feeding the morbidly obese may seem to be a logistical challenge, and enabling behavior, but what I'd like to know is how do these family members deal with having to take over cleaning up the other end? When I hear about morbidly obese persons, my first reaction isn't the feeding - it's the cleaning.

If they've not left their bed, or couch, in years just what the Hell are they doing about fecal matter and urine? And even given that bedpans can work, I cannot fathom how anyone can rationalize around that.
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  #16  
Old 11-29-2007, 03:45 PM
Santo Rugger Santo Rugger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bouv
I imagine the usage of the term 'fatty', which is a bit insulting.
Oh, come on. What are we supposed to say? Woman of weight? Mass impaired? Metabolistically challenged? Physically disabled?

I can come up with twenty words and phrases that would be much more insulting than "fatty". I don't see how it's more insulting than "chubby", "thick", or "voluptuous".

But, since we're speculating, I thought it was because somebody would want to see aforementioned sites, dedicated to how to get your SO even more... umm, scale worthy?
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  #17  
Old 11-29-2007, 05:21 PM
Napier Napier is offline
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There's an interesting series on one of the cable channels called something like "Inside the Brookhaven Obesity Clinic".
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  #18  
Old 11-29-2007, 05:31 PM
lisacurl lisacurl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santo Rugger
Oh, come on. What are we supposed to say? Woman of weight? Mass impaired? Metabolistically challenged? Physically disabled?

I can come up with twenty words and phrases that would be much more insulting than "fatty". I don't see how it's more insulting than "chubby", "thick", or "voluptuous".

But, since we're speculating, I thought it was because somebody would want to see aforementioned sites, dedicated to how to get your SO even more... umm, scale worthy?
I think she was rolling eyes at the claim that 'most males who wouldn't be caught dead tagging a fatty'... maybe most men he knows are that shallow, stupid, and immature, but hey.

As to the OP, what are family members supposed to do with a homebound morbidly obese family member? Starve them?

Last edited by lisacurl; 11-29-2007 at 05:34 PM..
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  #19  
Old 11-29-2007, 05:37 PM
silenus silenus is offline
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I believe he said "most." That is far different than "all."

And quite frankly, IME most of us are that shallow, stupid and immature. So there!
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  #20  
Old 11-29-2007, 05:40 PM
ParentalAdvisory ParentalAdvisory is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lisacurl
As to the OP, what are family members supposed to do with a homebound morbidly obese family member? Starve them?
Starve them? Absolutely not. Feed them what ever they want? Hell no.
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  #21  
Old 11-29-2007, 05:41 PM
alphaboi867 alphaboi867 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtakuLoki
...If they've not left their bed, or couch, in years just what the Hell are they doing about fecal matter and urine? And even given that bedpans can work, I cannot fathom how anyone can rationalize around that.
Nip/Tuck did an episode where a morbidly obese woman's skin, after having spent several years on her couch, had fused with the couch.
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  #22  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:01 PM
OneCentStamp OneCentStamp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lisacurl
I think she was rolling eyes at the claim that 'most males who wouldn't be caught dead tagging a fatty'... maybe most men he knows are that shallow, stupid, and immature, but hey.
Well, so are most males that I know, then. He may have put it indelicately, but acknowledging that there's an overwhelming bias (in Western culture) against fat women as sex objects is not at all the same as saying that bias is good or fair.
Quote:
As to the OP, what are family members supposed to do with a homebound morbidly obese family member? Starve them?
Is starving them the only other option?
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  #23  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:24 PM
jtgain jtgain is offline
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Originally Posted by Wee Bairn
I can see someone feeding them at home, but why do the obesity clinics allow people to "sneak" them in food? Can't they have a guard up front checking for that?
I saw a documentary on this one time and the administrator of this hospital said that they were a hospital, not a jail, and as such their patients were free to make the choices they wanted.

I feel that this is ridiculous. They are wasting a valuable resource in this hospital by continuing to eat. Surely the hospital can make rules..
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  #24  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:29 PM
Shayna Shayna is offline
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Originally Posted by alphaboi867

Nip/Tuck did an episode where a morbidly obese woman's skin, after having spent several years on her couch, had fused with the couch.
Which, sadly, was based on a true story.
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  #25  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:37 PM
Shayna Shayna is offline
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Freakin' time-outs prevented me from making the edit window, but here's a more detailed article. It says that authorities were looking into neglect charges, but I couldn't find any follow-up articles that say whether or not any were ever filed.
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  #26  
Old 11-29-2007, 07:16 PM
Polymer Polymer is offline
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Originally Posted by OtakuLoki
If they've not left their bed, or couch, in years just what the Hell are they doing about fecal matter and urine? And even given that bedpans can work, I cannot fathom how anyone can rationalize around that.
I would really like to know the answer to this as well. I've seen all the shows on TLC/Discovery over the past few years and not ONE ever addresses this issue. Parick Deuel, John whateverhisnamewas, etc. Their wives bought and fed them upwards of 20,000 calories a day (think the equivalent of 40 Big Macs). And they were bedridden. I can't even begin to imagine the volume of feces expelled every day. And yeah, exactly how was that cleaned up? And how did the obese person rationalize forcing someone else to do that for them?
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  #27  
Old 11-29-2007, 07:22 PM
bouv bouv is offline
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Originally Posted by Polymer
I would really like to know the answer to this as well. I've seen all the shows on TLC/Discovery over the past few years and not ONE ever addresses this issue. Parick Deuel, John whateverhisnamewas, etc. Their wives bought and fed them upwards of 20,000 calories a day (think the equivalent of 40 Big Macs). And they were bedridden. I can't even begin to imagine the volume of feces expelled every day. And yeah, exactly how was that cleaned up? And how did the obese person rationalize forcing someone else to do that for them?
Colostomy bag? It's slightly less gross than a bedpan, diapers, or *shudder* nothing.
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  #28  
Old 11-29-2007, 07:28 PM
lisacurl lisacurl is offline
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People can rationalize anything.
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  #29  
Old 11-29-2007, 07:35 PM
jayjay jayjay is online now
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It should be noted that the feeder phenomenon isn't quite as much of an innocent (if you'll forgive that term in this context) fetish as it seems at first. There are a lot of control issues involved and a lot of feeders tend to be controlling personalities. And there is a difference between "chubby chasers" and "feeders", though there is some overlap. There really are men who are just more attracted to larger women than to thinner women (and men, too...there is a chubby/chaser subset in the gay community as well (and also feeders, for that matter)).
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  #30  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:21 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is online now
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Originally Posted by bouv
Colostomy bag? It's slightly less gross than a bedpan, diapers, or *shudder* nothing.
Uh, colostomy bags CAN be a medical necessity not related to obesity. (My uncle, for one, after having colon cancer, is by no means obese-he's not even remotely chubby)


What I want to know is-how can you get yourself into such a severe state? How do you build that up, even slowly? I can't imagine being able to consume even a fraction of what these people eat on a daily basis.

I realize it's some sort of mental illness-how can it NOT be?
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  #31  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:23 PM
ralph124c ralph124c is offline
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Once You are Confined to a Bed

..does everything you eat turn to fat? I saw one guy-he was up to 700 pounds-and was still demanding double cheeseburgers! I can't imagine life like that-what do you do all day? I'd go crazy!
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  #32  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:37 PM
RandMcnally RandMcnally is offline
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Another question: Food can be fairly expensive, especially fast food. Where do they get all the money for that? I eat once, maybe twice a day, and I still think I'm spending too much money.
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  #33  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:44 PM
Balthisar Balthisar is offline
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Originally Posted by RandMcnally
Another question: Food can be fairly expensive, especially fast food. Where do they get all the money for that? I eat once, maybe twice a day, and I still think I'm spending too much money.
You mean to tell me they're not eating fresh veggies and a balanced diet??
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  #34  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:59 PM
Wee Bairn Wee Bairn is offline
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I agree with the money angle as well- on one of those documentaires it said one of the patients was eating 33 thousand calories a day- thats a lot of money per day.
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  #35  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:30 PM
tonedef tonedef is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lisacurl
As to the OP, what are family members supposed to do with a homebound morbidly obese family member? Starve them?
Maybe nto stave them but it does seem like a good option when a person is so fat that they crush there own lunges from there weight when they are sleeping and kill them selfs!

While on the topic of fatties check this out
http://xpock.com/?p=1312 he lost 168 Kg, got pictures of his progress!
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  #36  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:55 PM
R. P. McMurphy R. P. McMurphy is offline
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I can only imagine BUT . . .

. . . while any account or documentary will tend to portray the morbidly obese person as helpless and pathetic I suspect that when the cameras are off they are miserable people to be around. They are probably crying, whining, demanding, assertive individuals that will use any method possible to get an enabler to satisfy their needs. Once this person has found an enabler they will use that person to satisfy their desire for eating. They probably use any method they can to get they enabler to comply. "You hate me, you are an evil person, if you cared about me at all you would bring some food, etc." I would imagine that being around this person is pure Hell but enablers look for that Hell.

They are no different than a drug addict the will steal, whore or manipulate in order to satisy their addiction.

I'm suspicious of the 800 lb. person who can't move. That person's life may appear to be Hell but that person was probably making the enabler's life Hell.

It's like the spineless parent that can't say "no" to their child. They end up raising a total loser. Who's to blame?
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  #37  
Old 11-30-2007, 12:17 AM
Savannah Savannah is offline
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Someone else must have watched the thing on TLC the other night. I've seen most of the shows on that channel about the super-sized obese people. As someone who is overweight myself, I have a morbid (pardon the pun) curiosity about super-morbid obesity.

The same questions come to mind every time: how do you handle urination/defecation? Why in heaven's name do their family keep bringing them such massive amounts of high-calorie food? It's not an 800 pound bedridden man is going to hop up and chase you into the kitchen until you start cooking.

I guess the person relying on family to feed them could be manipulative, or just plain mean enough to find a way to get the food they want. (I imagine throwing feces at my husband if he didn't bring me a pizza might...

Nope. It would get me abandoned in my bed, and it would serve me right.)

I've also seen some episodes about Brookhaven; it seems quite ridiculous. Most episodes feature super-obese patients cheating, avoiding exercise/diet, and not making any progress. WTF?

Last edited by Savannah; 11-30-2007 at 12:18 AM..
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  #38  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:34 AM
Malacandra Malacandra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinastasia
Uh, colostomy bags CAN be a medical necessity not related to obesity. (My uncle, for one, after having colon cancer, is by no means obese-he's not even remotely chubby)
Uh, I think people know that, but merely mention it as a hypothetical solution to the logistical problem. You don't have to chime in demanding respect for the colostomised.

--Mal, who by reason of his mother's last illness wots whereof he speaks.
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  #39  
Old 11-30-2007, 08:02 AM
norinew norinew is offline
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Another aspect, from the POV of the person/people who feed the SMO (Super Morbidly Obese) is this: the SMO is, in effect, physically paralyzed. Eating is one of the very few pleasurable things still available to them. What else do they have? They can't go for a walk in the park, swimming, have sex, go dancing, go to amusement parks, go out for drinks with their friends; essentially, they are bed-ridden. Food is readily available entertainment.

I'm not saying this is a good reason to feed them, only that it may very well be a factor, and is almost definitely a factor in the manipulation that the SMO uses ("I don't have anything left in my life except my Hostess cupcakes; are you going to be the one to deny me them??")

Sure, the care-giver realizes the SMO would be better off with a turkey sandwich and cup of soup than a box of Little Debbie's. But past a certain weight, the idea of losing enough weight to be functional again seems akin to climbing Mount Everest. So the care-giver may be thinking "Well, no significant weight loss is likely to happen anyway; so I may as well at least provide them with what pleasure I can".
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  #40  
Old 11-30-2007, 08:31 AM
Plan B Plan B is offline
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Interesting thread. I recently saw two of the TLC documentaries. Neither one went near the question of enabling. Yeah, who does bring the food? I'd be interested in seeing some of the manipulative conversations. Also I'd love to hear from those crew members who got sucked into this.

Last edited by Plan B; 11-30-2007 at 08:33 AM..
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  #41  
Old 11-30-2007, 08:52 AM
vetbridge vetbridge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan B
Yeah, who does bring the food?
I'm imagining Meals on Wheels. With 18 wheelers.


sorry.
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  #42  
Old 11-30-2007, 09:24 AM
Sticks and Scones Sticks and Scones is offline
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Anybody here care to make a distinction between Morbidly Obese people and those people who are housebound due to weight?

Why, yes, I am morbidly obese. I am also a budding entrepreneur who is on my feet at least 8 hours a day and have been known at times to be the sole contributing income for me and my baby boomer parents. I'm happy that I'm not one of the unfortunate people who are house bound. But I guess I don't feel like I should be in the same group as far as discussions like this are concerned. I'll concede that I was already in a somewhat bad mood before I opened this thread, but reading it made me feel like I should run off and join the freak show for fat people or something.

And, for the record, I do have a boyfriend who apparently must be a freak himself if he could ever dare to love a fatty like me. We'll be celebrating our first anniversary in about a month. Oh yeah, and he's about 6' and weighs about 155.
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Old 11-30-2007, 09:41 AM
Malacandra Malacandra is offline
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So you're able to refute mantis's suggestion, then, that most men would pass up the opportunity to chase enormously obese women? Also, you're satisfied that you're not part of the group being discussed, but you'll go ahead and feel offended anyway? Also2, why the need to emphasise the boyfriend's skinniness - does that make him more of a trophy, and if so, why?
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  #44  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:02 AM
norinew norinew is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Always Brings Pie
Anybody here care to make a distinction between Morbidly Obese people and those people who are housebound due to weight?
I made a distinction in my last post. The terms Overweight, Obese, Morbidly Obese, and Super Morbidly Obese, while politically charged, have scientific definition. It all depends on your BMI. I'd have to do some research to find out exactly where the line is between Morbidly Obese (MO) and Super Morbidly Obese (SMO), the SMO classification is the one you'd most likely fall into if you were so large you were completely incapacitated by your size.

Like you, I was never very handicapped by my size when I was MO. I got around pretty well (although less so as I got older), certainly held a number of jobs where I was on my feet/very active.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malacandra
why the need to emphasise the boyfriend's skinniness - does that make him more of a trophy, and if so, why?
Although you didn't ask this question of me, I'll go ahead and field it from my perspective of a woman who was MO, and "managed" to snag a "normal" guy anyway. If Always Brings Pie has more to add or a different perspective, I'm sure she'll chime in.

If it had been me making that statement (and it very well could have been), it wouldn't have been the idea that him being skinny made him more of a trophy. It was the idea that some people, upon hearing I had a boyfriend/husband, felt the need or desire to know if maybe there was something wrong with him, like maybe he was a "fatty", too, that meant he had to "settle" for someone like me. But in fact, he didn't "settle" for someone like me, and he's not one of the guys who prefer large women. In fact, he preferred thinner ones (though he never nagged me about my weight or eating). But he got to know me, he fell in love with me, he married me. But some people are so prejudiced against large people, they'd find that hard to believe. After living with those attitudes from people for a number of years, you do tend to get defensive about it, and feel the need sometimes to qualify things, before questions can be asked.

Of course, none of this is helping to address the question in the OP. I honestly don't know what my husband would have done if I'd gotten to the point where I was unable to care for myself because of my size. I can't believe he'd have brought me bunches of junk food, but I can certainly believe I'd have been wanting it. And I don't know how we would have dealt with the question of bodily functions, either. Yeah, he married me "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health" and all that. And has been my care-taker at times I've been very ill. But none of those illnesses were self-inflicted to the extent that the disability discussed in the OP is.

Last edited by norinew; 11-30-2007 at 11:04 AM.. Reason: Fixed dumb mistake
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  #45  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:42 PM
OneCentStamp OneCentStamp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Always Brings Pie
Anybody here care to make a distinction between Morbidly Obese people and those people who are housebound due to weight?

Why, yes, I am morbidly obese. I am also a budding entrepreneur who is on my feet at least 8 hours a day and have been known at times to be the sole contributing income for me and my baby boomer parents. I'm happy that I'm not one of the unfortunate people who are house bound. But I guess I don't feel like I should be in the same group as far as discussions like this are concerned.
Well, clearly you don't belong in the housebound group; otherwise your screen name would be Always Bring Pie.
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  #46  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:57 PM
Polymer Polymer is offline
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Originally Posted by Plan B
Interesting thread. I recently saw two of the TLC documentaries. Neither one went near the question of enabling. Yeah, who does bring the food? I'd be interested in seeing some of the manipulative conversations. Also I'd love to hear from those crew members who got sucked into this.
After watching a couple of those shows, I was disgusted with the across-the-board refusal of the show's producers to address this issue. The SMOs were almost universally presented as helpless victims of the "disease" of obesity", rather than manipulative addicts who did this to themselves.

I'm also curious if anyone has EVER stood up to one of these people and simply said "No, you're not getting a single twinkie, pizza or candy bar until you can get out of bed and go buy it yourself. Now here's a salad". THAT would make an interesting reality show.
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  #47  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:17 PM
R. P. McMurphy R. P. McMurphy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymer
After watching a couple of those shows, I was disgusted with the across-the-board refusal of the show's producers to address this issue. The SMOs were almost universally presented as helpless victims of the "disease" of obesity", rather than manipulative addicts who did this to themselves.

I'm also curious if anyone has EVER stood up to one of these people and simply said "No, you're not getting a single twinkie, pizza or candy bar until you can get out of bed and go buy it yourself. Now here's a salad". THAT would make an interesting reality show.
I think that is the point. If the person didn't have an enabler they wouldn't be obese to the point of being housebound. Certainly there are people capable of gaining that much weight but do not have an enabler and therefore it doesn't happen.
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  #48  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:00 PM
alphaboi867 alphaboi867 is offline
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Didn't we have a doper awhile back who was caretaker to her SMO mother and wanted out? Just what does happen when the enabler dies or leaves? Does social services then have to care for the SMO person? Are they sent to an institution (hopefully better run than Brookhaven)?
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  #49  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:02 PM
Sitnam Sitnam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadlyAccurate
A warning: though the links Sitnam posted are SFW, there are NSFW pics on that site.
Yeah sorry, I didn't really look at everything on the cite before putting in the link.
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  #50  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:11 PM
Polymer Polymer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartydog
I think that is the point. If the person didn't have an enabler they wouldn't be obese to the point of being housebound. Certainly there are people capable of gaining that much weight but do not have an enabler and therefore it doesn't happen.
Sure. But my point is, why do the shows not only refuse to point this out, but seem to actively avoid the entire subject? That guy John Deitz that was on the "700-pound man" or whatever show died a few years ago. They NEVER ONCE asked his wife why she kept buying him all the junk food. Never asked about the grocery bill. Never asked why she didn't just say "no" when John demanded an entire box of Little Debbies brought to him in bed. Never said "WHY.THE.HELL did you bring him four extra-large pizzas for dinner last night?"

Maybe if these shows would stop tip-toeing around the truth and actually show how the enabler is KILLING the SMO person, we'd have fewer of these situations going on.

p.s. I think John's wife should be charged with manslaughter.
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