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  #1  
Old 12-21-2007, 03:08 AM
human_extinction human_extinction is offline
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Is there scientific evidence for the existence of chi/qi?

I'm looking for insight into studies that have been done on chi (or "life energy" as some like to call it), and all of its theories and possible sightings in the scientific literature.

For example, the "gut's brain" is said to have some anatomical relationship to the tantien (considered to be the center/source of chi energy). I don't think any studies have really gotten close to figuring out what chi really is; it is popular in western science to say it is an imagined entity.

Thanks in advance for your information and ideas.
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  #2  
Old 12-21-2007, 04:06 AM
enigm4tic enigm4tic is offline
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Originally Posted by human_extinction
I don't think any studies have really gotten close to figuring out what chi really is; it is popular in western science to say it is an imagined entity.
It could well be an imagined entity, which would prohibit ANY scientific inquiry from finding anything reliable out about chi, or any "life energy".

On that note, I'm sure that there have been at least some scientific attempts to see if "chi" or "lifeforce" energy is scientifically quantifiable. The fact that no credible sources are readily available might start pointing you in the direction of "chi" being an imaginary force.
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  #3  
Old 12-21-2007, 09:32 AM
Sailboat Sailboat is offline
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I opened a book on dogs yesterday and saw a chapter on "life energy" in dog food. The author opened the chapter with the premise "ALL fresh and raw foods contain 'life energy', and cooked or processed foods have NO 'life energy' whatsoever."

I immediately recognized that I was reading the work of a charlatan.

Sailboat
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  #4  
Old 12-21-2007, 10:01 AM
beowulff beowulff is offline
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I used to take Kirlian photographs. They were pretty, and interesting, but hardly scientific.
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  #5  
Old 12-21-2007, 10:27 AM
CalMeacham CalMeacham is online now
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There's been plenty written debunking Kirlian photography. There's no a priori reason to think that these discharge phenomena correlate with any sort of "aura" or "bioenergy", it's been demonstrated that the apearance is strongly affected by all sorts of effects unrelated to one's mental or emotional state (like the frequency and amplitude of the applied field, the humidity , and whether or not you're surreptitiously grounding yourself by pressing your knee against the table leg), and the much-discussed "phantom leaf" effect has proven highly elusive when they try to intentionally reproduce it. Just Google it, along with "skeptic" and see what pops up.
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  #6  
Old 12-21-2007, 01:31 PM
human_extinction human_extinction is offline
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Originally Posted by beowulff
I used to take Kirlian photographs. They were pretty, and interesting, but hardly scientific.
I'm interested in building one; is that what you did?
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  #7  
Old 12-21-2007, 02:28 PM
glee glee is offline
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Originally Posted by human_extinction
I'm looking for insight into studies that have been done on chi (or "life energy" as some like to call it), and all of its theories and possible sightings in the scientific literature.

For example, the "gut's brain" is said to have some anatomical relationship to the tantien (considered to be the center/source of chi energy). I don't think any studies have really gotten close to figuring out what chi really is; it is popular in western science to say it is an imagined entity.

Thanks in advance for your information and ideas.
I don't know of any scientific studies that have been done on 'chi'. It has certainly never been detected.
Here is a claim by a religion:

Li preaches that the "qi," "ki," or "chi" — the "energy substance in the human body" — can, through practice of Falun Gong, be activated, changing the physical state of the body, achieving healing and health. Through such training, he says, one can emit a "high-energy cluster that is manifested in the form of light with fine particles and high density."

http://www.randi.org/jr/101703.html

Since there is no evidence that 'chi' exists, there is no reason to believe in it.
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  #8  
Old 12-21-2007, 02:52 PM
Q.E.D. Q.E.D. is offline
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Originally Posted by beowulff
I used to take Kirlian photographs. They were pretty, and interesting, but hardly scientific.
There's lots of science behind it! Kirlian images are created by the photoemissions from high-voltage corona discharge. If that's not an "aura" then I don't know what is.
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  #9  
Old 12-21-2007, 02:53 PM
human_extinction human_extinction is offline
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Well, I'm sure it is not manifested in light or anything like that. I'm just looking to collect information.

I did some pubmed searches, and there was an interesting study on the effects chi had on mitochondria. It seemed, though, that the P values were too small to determine anything definitive.
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  #10  
Old 12-21-2007, 02:56 PM
human_extinction human_extinction is offline
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Originally Posted by Q.E.D.
There's lots of science behind it! Kirlian images are created by the photoemissions from high-voltage corona discharge. If that's not an "aura" then I don't know what is.
Yeah, it seems the cause of kirlian photography, the corona discharge, is just an anomaly or artifact.
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  #11  
Old 12-21-2007, 03:00 PM
Lanzy Lanzy is offline
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You mean any studies that shows any of these things are real? A real scientific study will most likely conclude they are not. Any study showing Chi actually exists will be worth at least a million, and that's only from Randi.
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  #12  
Old 12-21-2007, 03:05 PM
beowulff beowulff is offline
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Originally Posted by human_extinction
I'm interested in building one; is that what you did?
Yes.
Just get hold of a high-frequency, high-voltage generator. The flyback circuit from a TV works fine. Don't hurt yourself.

Really.

Maybe this will help you get started: http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/...n/kirlian.html
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  #13  
Old 12-21-2007, 05:47 PM
glee glee is offline
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Originally Posted by human_extinction
Well, I'm sure it is not manifested in light or anything like that. I'm just looking to collect information.

I did some pubmed searches, and there was an interesting study on the effects chi had on mitochondria. It seemed, though, that the P values were too small to determine anything definitive.
Some of the claims for 'chi' are:

- you can heal yourself
- you can fly
- you can deflect bullets

It would be a lot easier to test these claims than the study you mention.

The reasons that 'Western science' can't detect 'chi' are:

- they are suppressing the information, because the power of 'chi' scares them
- 'chi' can only be detected by people who believe in it
- 'chi' can only be detected by people who are members of the appropriate religion

'Chi' must exist because it is an ancient belief and merely by paying to join a religion, you will receive its power...
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  #14  
Old 12-21-2007, 07:14 PM
enigm4tic enigm4tic is offline
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Originally Posted by human_extinction
I did some pubmed searches, and there was an interesting study on the effects chi had on mitochondria. It seemed, though, that the P values were too small to determine anything definitive.
Again, I think part of the issue here is that you're starting with a base assumption that "chi" energy exists, and thus are looking for some sort of information on "what" it affects rather than "does such a thing in the first place exist to affect something".

IIRC, and I may even be exaggerating at that, some forms of acpuncture or massage therapy, etc., are said to be "chi" based, focusing on different pressure points, and such, but it was later found that a biologically based explanation, such as connected nerve clusters, caused the effects that were attributed to a mysterious "life energy". Still interesting work, but it's not nearly the sort of mythical energy you seem to be presupposing exists.
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  #15  
Old 12-22-2007, 12:56 AM
human_extinction human_extinction is offline
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I'm not saying that chi is what anyone says it is, but I am going on the assumption that there is something there that is misunderstood (or has been overlooked completely). I'm using the name chi in order to define that I am talking about what "all those" easterners have been talking about, but I'm not saying that chi is what they say it is. This is why I'm looking around for some insight - or scientists theories (besides "those people are retarded") - on what chi is. It is apparent that we have seen the effects of chi (or the effects of those who practice qigong ("chi cultivation"). For example, one Harvard study has monks agree to be tested in labs. The were put in freezing rooms with wet towels around them, and the towels were dried off within a half our. One cannot say this this "IS CHI," but it certainly is showing an effect of something there - something that, as of now, we certainly don't understand.

Maybe I should post "Does Chi Exist" in the debate forum, and hope that there will be some passionate and well thought-out arguments.
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  #16  
Old 12-22-2007, 02:08 AM
WoodenTaco WoodenTaco is offline
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Originally Posted by human_extinction
For example, one Harvard study has monks agree to be tested in labs. The were put in freezing rooms with wet towels around them, and the towels were dried off within a half our. One cannot say this this "IS CHI," but it certainly is showing an effect of something there - something that, as of now, we certainly don't understand.
I think the issue is that "Chi" is used as a generic blanket explanation for stuff. We can give you science's current attempts at explaining those things, but that requires a case-by-case explanation. Your question is somewhat akin to asking how Vegas magicians do their tricks - there isn't a single explanation; you have to show us the specific case to explain.

You are greatly exaggerating the monks-with-towels bit. Anybody would be able to dry off the thin sheets that they used; the impressive part was that the monks didn't get hypothermic, because they were able to regulate their body by lowering their heart rate and stuff (Here's the original article: http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2...09-tummo.html). Still impressive, but it hardly qualifies as a phantom form of energy.

Last edited by WoodenTaco; 12-22-2007 at 02:09 AM..
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  #17  
Old 12-22-2007, 03:06 AM
human_extinction human_extinction is offline
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Originally Posted by WoodenTaco
You are greatly exaggerating the monks-with-towels bit. Anybody would be able to dry off the thin sheets that they used; the impressive part was that the monks didn't get hypothermic, because they were able to regulate their body by lowering their heart rate and stuff (Here's the original article: http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2...09-tummo.html). Still impressive, but it hardly qualifies as a phantom form of energy.
I didn't mean to make it sound magical in any sense, but how many people in this world can willingly raise parts of their bodies 17 degrees? Furthermore, infrared imaging has shown that others can raise it even higher. This is certainly a by-product of a not yet understood phenomena, no? In other words, lets try not to think of it as a "phantom form of energy," but as something which feels like energy to its practitioners - and has some resemblance to energy in its supposed applications.
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  #18  
Old 12-22-2007, 03:36 AM
enigm4tic enigm4tic is offline
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actually, it *is* fairly well understood, it doesn't really require any form of energy beyond what is normally found in the body. The monks have a lot of training and intense concentration in order to control body functions that are normally automatic. Think of it this way. everybody can learn to hold their breath, it's a very common control method over what's normally an automatic body function, nobody "thinks" about breathing 24/7. In the same way, nobody really "thinks" about their heart beating, but these monks have spent years doing just that. This sort of control over one's body is very impressive, but well within defined scientific limits and understood body control mechanisms, not an outside energy force.

I understand that you're using "chi" as an example term, which is why I've substituted "life force" or "life energy" in most of my posts. My point has always, and will continue to be, that the scientific community as of right now contends that there is no force outside of those biologically understood. I have yet to see any convincing evidence to the contrary personally, as well, though I won't rule out such a thing possibly existing.
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  #19  
Old 12-22-2007, 03:45 AM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
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Originally Posted by human_extinction
I didn't mean to make it sound magical in any sense, but how many people in this world can willingly raise parts of their bodies 17 degrees?
Heck, I can raise my body 90 degrees just by getting out of bed.
Quote:
In other words, lets try not to think of it as a "phantom form of energy," but as something which feels like energy to its practitioners - and has some resemblance to energy in its supposed applications.
Well, it's kind of hard to minutely examine and quantify feelings; we can only go with measurable results. The approach you're proposing will naturally lead to confirmation bias: any test result that seems vaguely mysterious is proof of chi, any test result that tends to disprove chi is just looking in the wrong place.
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  #20  
Old 12-22-2007, 08:56 AM
Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor is offline
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  #21  
Old 12-22-2007, 09:58 AM
ianzin ianzin is offline
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As s often the case, it can be useful to start by considering concepts one at a time, even if they may be related.

'Chi' is a concept used in different cultures and different disciplines to mean slightly different things. At the more rational end of the spectrum, some people just use the word as a metaphor, or as a way of building a model. When it used in this way, the word can be useful, even if it is the case that 'chi' does not correspond to an actual source, type or flow of energy. A martial arts teacher can use the idea to help a student understand and visualise how to punch correctly with focused force.

There are many related concepts, in many fields of study, that help to create useful models or ways of understanding. Many electrical engineers, when asked to explain about electrical circuits, use metaphors about water flowing through pipes. Thinking about the quantity water, how quickly it passes a certain point, and the amout of pressure behind it can help the student understand things like voltage and amperage.

At the less rational end of the spectrum, there are those who refer to 'chi' as if it is a real force or type of energy or a channel for a type of energy, albeit one that 'western' science has difficulty detecting or measuring . These claims may or may not be accompanied by claims about auras, being able to punch people at a distance, having seemingly amazing control over the body's usually autonomous systems, or being able to defy natural laws such as gravity.

All such claims are in the realm of myth and pseuso-science. If you want to believe in them, you can. That's your right. You can begin with any hypothesis you want, and if you're selective enough you'll find evidence to support it. Psychic powers are as real as you want them to be, and so are witches flying through the air on broomsticks (well reported by the newspapers of the 17th century) and the merits of phrenology (well reported almost everywhere in the 1920s).

However, if you are interested in objective assessment, in the scientific approach of trying to test and break a hypothesis, then occasional reports and well-meaning eyewitness testimony are not enough. You have to wait until someone can demonstrate these 'truths' under well-controlled conditions, where we take precautions to guard againt observer error, mis-interpretation, selective thinking errors and fraud. When this is done, we can begin to regard these phenomena and these achievements as real, and as worthy of future study and independent corroboration. Until that day comes, there's no good reason or good evidence to believe in these things any more than we believe in witches on broomsticks. And that day has not come yet.

Kirlian photography: if you take some photographic film and an electrical current and arrange them a certain way (details readily available all over the internet) you can end up with some messy, foggy bits of film that show nothing much, or sometimes you can get pretty images that show a corona around the outline or profile of the object photographed. Sometimes, these images are striking, beautiful and fascinating. It's certainly easy to imagine they correspond to something like life energy or a psychic aura. You can believe this if you wish. Has anyone demonstrated in the scientific way mentioned above that this correlation has any factual basis? No. Not yet. Thelma Moss did some nice research on this and you can maybe still get her paperback books full of her findings. She felt there was something to the 'kirlian image = life energy field' theory. Unfortunately, there is no independent corroboration of her findings. So far as we know, these images are just an artefact of voltage and photographic film.
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  #22  
Old 12-22-2007, 11:24 AM
Rico Rico is offline
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<mod>

At the request of the OP, I'm moving this to Great Debates.

Also editing the title of the thread to clarify post content.

GQ > GD

</mod>
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  #23  
Old 12-22-2007, 12:43 PM
Klepto21 Klepto21 is offline
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I've been doing some Tai Chi this last year and I will tell you what "chi" or "qi" is to me:
When you learn the proper relaxation posture, and you've been doing these small slow movements for a while, you get this feeling in your stomach (diantien). I was a skeptic, but it hit me and I couldn't wipe a grin off my face. You know the cramped, sickening feeling you get, say, thinking of a project due tomorrow morning that you're going to be working on for a while? This is the opposite of that. It's (and I hate to sound so hippyish but) a happy feeling from your center, and in addition it feels like your blood is pumping more efficiently.

From what I've been doing, this all makes perfect sense. You learn how to relax all your muscles as much as possible, you set your body up in the most natural way it could be, and you learn to breathe through your stomach instead of stretching your ribs for every breath ("like a baby naturally does" as my instructor would say). All of this makes your body, your breathing, and circulatory system more efficient, because you are breathing in more oxygen, while using less of it. The efficiency, imo, is what leads to the "happy feeling" known as feeling your chi.
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  #24  
Old 12-22-2007, 02:20 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is online now
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Originally Posted by human_extinction
I'm not saying that chi is what anyone says it is, but I am going on the assumption that there is something there that is misunderstood (or has been overlooked completely).
If you're going on this assumption, then you probably don't want to go the scientific route, as science frowns on assuming something exists without evidence and then drumming up theories to explain the undocumented phenomenon. This tactic has been used in support of pseudoscience such as homeopathy, with the result that hilariously complex equations have been drawn up to justify something that's supposed to happen as the result of a kind of "force" produced by undetectable molecules.

As noted earlier, a more common tactic is to dismiss the need for scientific corroboration or negative studies on the basis that "since science can't support my brand of woo, it's science that's defective".

By the way, a chi machine makes a great last-minute Xmas gift.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 12-22-2007 at 02:20 PM..
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  #25  
Old 12-22-2007, 02:46 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
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GQ thread from 2003.
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  #26  
Old 12-23-2007, 08:42 AM
misterW misterW is offline
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Originally Posted by WoodenTaco
I think the issue is that "Chi" is used as a generic blanket explanation for stuff. We can give you science's current attempts at explaining those things, but that requires a case-by-case explanation. Your question is somewhat akin to asking how Vegas magicians do their tricks - there isn't a single explanation; you have to show us the specific case to explain.

You are greatly exaggerating the monks-with-towels bit. Anybody would be able to dry off the thin sheets that they used; the impressive part was that the monks didn't get hypothermic, because they were able to regulate their body by lowering their heart rate and stuff (Here's the original article: http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2...09-tummo.html). Still impressive, but it hardly qualifies as a phantom form of energy.
The link to the study is broken.
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  #27  
Old 12-23-2007, 06:47 PM
velocitri velocitri is offline
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Chi is willpower. If you can yield your mind and body to your will (not merely desires), you've got chi. If you can choke people without touching them, you've got "the force".
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  #28  
Old 12-24-2007, 02:31 AM
WoodenTaco WoodenTaco is offline
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Originally Posted by misterW
The link to the study is broken.
My bad. http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2.../09-tummo.html
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  #29  
Old 12-24-2007, 06:00 PM
glee glee is offline
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Originally Posted by velocitri
Chi is willpower. If you can yield your mind and body to your will (not merely desires), you've got chi. If you can choke people without touching them, you've got "the force".
Chi is undetectable.
If you can yield your mind and body to your will (not merely desires), you've got self-control.
If you can choke people without touching them, you've got 'Star Wars'.
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  #30  
Old 12-24-2007, 11:54 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
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Originally Posted by glee
Chi is undetectable.
If you can yield your mind and body to your will (not merely desires), you've got self-control.
If you can choke people without touching them, you've got 'Star Wars'.
If you can increase the rate of fur growth on a mangy cat, you've got a chi-a pet.
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  #31  
Old 12-25-2007, 12:07 AM
Ravenman Ravenman is online now
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Originally Posted by Klepto21
I've been doing some Tai Chi this last year and I will tell you what "chi" or "qi" is to me:
Damn. I've been doing martial arts for 13 years, never felt what you described, and you picked it up in several months?

FWIW, I put qi firmly in the first category ianzin described: it's just kind of a metaphor for doing things the correct way, but unscrupulous people blow it up into being the Real Ultimate Power, most likely to pad their wallets.
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  #32  
Old 12-25-2007, 05:57 PM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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Originally Posted by Q.E.D.
There's lots of science behind it! Kirlian images are created by the photoemissions from high-voltage corona discharge. If that's not an "aura" then I don't know what is.
There is a life energy present in all people. The more advanced you are spiritually the more you can feel it. It comes from the source of all life. It is your spirit that inhabits the physical body. Many people can see auras, it is not that hard. There are now computer programs that can display your aura on the monitor. I have a picture of my aura taken from a computer program.

Yes, I know the skeptics can't find it, but that is not news.
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  #33  
Old 12-25-2007, 06:16 PM
Sophistry and Illusion Sophistry and Illusion is offline
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There is a life energy present in all people. It comes from the source of all life.
Oxidative phosphorylation?
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  #34  
Old 12-25-2007, 10:16 PM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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Oxidative phosphorylation?
No -- Love.

30 And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone out from him, immediately turned about in the crowd and said, “Who touched my garments?”
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  #35  
Old 12-25-2007, 10:27 PM
Lobohan Lobohan is offline
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Originally Posted by lekatt
There is a life energy present in all people. The more advanced you are spiritually the more you can feel it. It comes from the source of all life. It is your spirit that inhabits the physical body. Many people can see auras, it is not that hard. There are now computer programs that can display your aura on the monitor. I have a picture of my aura taken from a computer program.

Yes, I know the skeptics can't find it, but that is not news.
Or conversely someone may have just made all that rubbish up and you believed him or her because of your decent and trusting nature.

Your opinions aren't evidence. Please post some if you have it.

Last edited by Lobohan; 12-25-2007 at 10:31 PM.. Reason: changed a line to make it more clear
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  #36  
Old 12-26-2007, 02:06 AM
WoodenTaco WoodenTaco is offline
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No -- Love.
Uhh.. What? You found a computer program that detects an aura of love? Am I whooshing like crazy here?
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  #37  
Old 12-26-2007, 09:04 AM
DanBlather DanBlather is offline
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Originally Posted by lekatt
No -- Love.

30 And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone out from him, immediately turned about in the crowd and said, “Who touched my garments?”
And the little boy said "You aren't wearing any clothes. And BTW, chi is crap".
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  #38  
Old 12-26-2007, 09:11 AM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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Originally Posted by Lobohan
Or conversely someone may have just made all that rubbish up and you believed him or her because of your decent and trusting nature.

Your opinions aren't evidence. Please post some if you have it.
I told you my personal experience, not my opinion.
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  #39  
Old 12-26-2007, 09:13 AM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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Uhh.. What? You found a computer program that detects an aura of love? Am I whooshing like crazy here?

I didn't find one, I experienced one, and they detect auras, not love.
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  #40  
Old 12-26-2007, 09:14 AM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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And the little boy said "You aren't wearing any clothes. And BTW, chi is crap".

And here we have someone who knows all, see all, tells all. Sorry if I don't believe your nonsense.
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  #41  
Old 12-26-2007, 09:15 AM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is online now
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Originally Posted by lekatt
I told you my personal experience, not my opinion.
Your personal experience is irrelevant. From the OP:
Quote:
I'm looking for insight into studies that have been done on chi (or "life energy" as some like to call it), and all of its theories and possible sightings in the scientific literature.
If you could cite some learned study entitled "Images Of Auras On Personal Computers: A Confirmation of Life Force" published in the Journal Of Irreproducible Results, then we'd be getting somewhere.
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  #42  
Old 12-26-2007, 09:18 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Originally Posted by lekatt
I told you my personal experience, not my opinion.
You've posted your personal interpretation of your personal experience without providing evidence to back it up.
This is what is called opinion.
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  #43  
Old 12-26-2007, 10:40 AM
BMalion BMalion is offline
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Originally Posted by glee
Chi is undetectable.
If you can yield your mind and body to your will (not merely desires), you've got self-control.
If you can choke people without touching them, you've got 'Star Wars'.

::makes choking motion with fingers::

I grow tired of your lack of faith.
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  #44  
Old 12-26-2007, 04:54 PM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm
You've posted your personal interpretation of your personal experience without providing evidence to back it up.
This is what is called opinion.
And you sir: have posted your personal interpretation of my personal interpretation of my experience which is called personal experience.
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  #45  
Old 12-26-2007, 05:01 PM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackmannii
Your personal experience is irrelevant. From the OP:If you could cite some learned study entitled "Images Of Auras On Personal Computers: A Confirmation of Life Force" published in the Journal Of Irreproducible Results, then we'd be getting somewhere.

Yes, of course, and if such a publication should exist skeptics would say it is faulted. Now this is a very big world with billions of events happening every second, many of those events have not, maybe can not be measured by the scientific method, however these events are still there, real and can be experienced. Science is not the measure of my world, I do not need to be verified by the scientific method in order to experience life. I know what I experience. So do millions of other people.

Last edited by lekatt; 12-26-2007 at 05:02 PM..
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  #46  
Old 12-26-2007, 05:30 PM
jjimm jjimm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glee
Here is a claim by a religion:

Li preaches that the "qi," "ki," or "chi" — the "energy substance in the human body" — can, through practice of Falun Gong
My boldies. In fairness to "chi", Falun Gong is a cult more than a religion, and is less than two decades old. Belief in chi is more continuous in traditional Chinese thought and goes back (up to) five millennia.

That said, it's clearly bunk.

My opinion on the whole thing, as applied to Chinese medicine, is that it's a) a collection of misinterpretations of genuine physical phenomena tied up in a single theory, but b) mostly benign or even effective, due to the largest-ever trial-and-error test group ever, wherein failed techniques end up with dead customers.
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  #47  
Old 12-26-2007, 05:32 PM
Sophistry and Illusion Sophistry and Illusion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lekatt
Yes, of course, and if such a publication should exist skeptics would say it is faulted. Now this is a very big world with billions of events happening every second, many of those events have not, maybe can not be measured by the scientific method, however these events are still there, real and can be experienced. Science is not the measure of my world, I do not need to be verified by the scientific method in order to experience life. I know what I experience. So do millions of other people.
But you just posted above that the aura can be detected by physical equipment and displayed on a computer screen, which presumably means that it can be studied scientifically. I know you just post whatever seems the most apt reply to whoever is criticizing you at the moment, without making any attempt to achieve consistency among your various replies, but you could at least make an effort to think before posting. Unless you really are just incapable of detecting incompatibility among various propositions, which I am strongly beginning to suspect.
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  #48  
Old 12-26-2007, 05:49 PM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodenTaco
Uhh.. What? You found a computer program that detects an aura of love? Am I whooshing like crazy here?
It's probably true; I myself possess a small camera-like device that records evidence of self-love. If it will help further the debate, I'll gladly post a link...
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  #49  
Old 12-28-2007, 11:42 AM
lekatt lekatt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophistry and Illusion
But you just posted above that the aura can be detected by physical equipment and displayed on a computer screen, which presumably means that it can be studied scientifically. I know you just post whatever seems the most apt reply to whoever is criticizing you at the moment, without making any attempt to achieve consistency among your various replies, but you could at least make an effort to think before posting. Unless you really are just incapable of detecting incompatibility among various propositions, which I am strongly beginning to suspect.

Well, you sound like you know me better than I know myself, so you answer your own questions as you have in the past.
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  #50  
Old 12-28-2007, 12:55 PM
Musicat Musicat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lekatt
And here we have someone who knows all, see all, tells all. Sorry if I don't believe your nonsense.
Sorry if we don't believe your nonsense, either.
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