Roger Clemens goes deeper.

[gonzomax]

Clemens says he was not at the party at Cansecos. His nanny says there was no party. Now photos of the party have surfaced showing Roger there. McNamee always comes up right. Roger could be in real legal trouble now.

[lieu]

An eleven year old (at that time) took the pictures of his "then" heroes. Now he's turned them over as evidence. There's a fall from grace for you.

[PharmBoy]

I was (at first) willing to give him the benefit of the doubt (despite the fact that he's an ass), but it's clear now he's a lying cheat. There's no way McNamee injected his wife with hGH without him knowing it. To believe that lie is just stupid.

The overwhelming problem with today's athletes is that they are spoiled pompous jerks who don't understand that the rules apply to them.
Pete Rose, after swearing for years he never bet baseball, finally admits that he DID, but it's ok because always bet the Reds to win. Marion Jones swore up and down she didn't juice, but now,oops, please don't send me to jail for lying to a grand jury, I have kids...

Now it's the Rocket's turn and I hope for his sake he cuts a deal fast and pleads out, because otherwise he is going to do time.

[SkipMagic]

Off to The Game Room. Off, I say!

[Wee Bairn]

That was sort of mentioned at the trial- Rog's all of a sudden tried to get in contact with the nanny who he hadn't seen in seven years when he found out she said she was there, as was Rog. When asked why he would try to contact a witness would would conflict his testimony, Rog said (sic) "I was tryin' to help ya'll"?

What's stupid is that his presence there doesn't necessarily prove anything at all, but it does increase McNamee's credibility. There was no need to lie about being at a party, doing so just makes Rog look worse. He first said he couldn't have been there- he was golfing that day, and can prove it! Unless you were golfing for the full 24 hrs. it proves nothing, and besides, where did it turn out Rog golfed that day- at the course adjacent to Canseco's house- d'oh!

[gonzomax]

McNamee and Conseco have been found to be truthful over and over.

[Wee Bairn]

I don't see how some are painting McNamee out to be a bad guy at all in this- he thought Rog was untrustworthy and kept stuff to protect himself should Roger turn on him and or lie, and Roger did both. Why are you a bad guy from protecting yourself from a liar and a worm?

[wolfman]

Originally Posted by gonzomax

McNamee and Conseco have been found to be truthful over and over.

Except Canseco swore a deposition that Roger wasn't at the party. I guess he didn't expect photos, Maybe someone should see if Canseco suddenly got any big new investors in his assinine movie project.

[Ludovic]

Roger Clemens goes deeper.

Bow-chicka-WOW.....

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by PharmBoy

I was (at first) willing to give him the benefit of the doubt (despite the fact that he's an ass), but it's clear now he's a lying cheat. There's no way McNamee injected his wife with hGH without him knowing it. To believe that lie is just stupid.

Clemens's entire defense has been stupid, stupid beyond belief. I mean, the guy lies about not being at a party when there were people taking pictures of him?

Like anything else, the problem is that once you're caught lying and you don't tell the whole truth immediately, you prevaricate even a little, you're never trusted again. Rose is a perfect example; he was caught red handed, and chose to lie, and lie, and lie some more. I bet on baseball, no I didn't, well maybe I did but not on the Reds, well maybe on the Reds but every night, well maybe not every night but always to win. (In between those lies, I believe he was also the end source for the phony 2003 story that he was being let back into baseball.) I think it's just as likely that he bet on the Reds to lose as not, because there's simply not one iota of evidence that he can be trusted.

If Rose had come ou in 1989 and said "Look, I have been betting on baseball, on my team. I have a gambling problem, and I admit it. I accept my banishment and I will seek counselling, and in five years, if I feel I have this beat, perhaps then I will ask for reinstatement. Until then, I think it's best for the sort I love that I not be in a position to damage it" you wouldn't have millions of people (like me) thinking he's a slimeball and he might be in the Hall of Fame. Instead, he's a slimeball and he's not in the Hall of Fame. Holding out for years just caused him to lose any hope of being trusted.

It's the same with Clemens. Andy Pettite has admitted he used HGH and apologized, and the general consensus right now is "Well, okay." Clemens, on the other hand, has lied again and again and hasn't really even lied well, and has now poisoned everything he will ever say on the subject again. Had he admitted it before all this shit came rolling downhill, I think people would be able to move on.

Of course "should have done X a long time ago" is pretty much the entire story of baseball and steroids, isn't it?

I think a lot of it is that he just strikes me as being stupidity and arrogance. Clemens really was a great pitcher, and he worked hard at it, but at some point he just became too far separated from humility and honesty to see that he couldn't just do anything and expect to avoid scrutiny. You would think, looking from the outside in, that someone like Clemens would KNOW he's being watched, that there are records and pictures and people who remember things he did because of who he is. I struggle to understand how someone in his position couldn't know that he cannot get away with things that someone like me could, because Roger Clemens is memorable and documented, and RickJay is not. But apparently part of becoming memorable is also losing your sense of being a member of society, losing the understanding that people will notice you being a jerk.

[Wee Bairn]

Originally Posted by wolfman

Except Canseco swore a deposition that Roger wasn't at the party. I guess he didn't expect photos, Maybe someone should see if Canseco suddenly got any big new investors in his assinine movie project.

Proof of a recent large payment from Rog to Canseco would be sublime.

[Asimovian]

Originally Posted by Wee Bairn

I don't see how some are painting McNamee out to be a bad guy at all in this- he thought Rog was untrustworthy and kept stuff to protect himself should Roger turn on him and or lie, and Roger did both. Why are you a bad guy from protecting yourself from a liar and a worm?

I'm not in any way defending Clemens. But it strikes me as creepy and suspect that you'd hold on to gauze and needles from so many years ago because you supposedly thought your friend and client was untrustworthy. To me, it seems more like he thought he might have been able to make money off of the "memorabilia" someday.

[gonzomax]

ESPN says he must get indicted now. Perjury is in the baseball cards now.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

You know, dad. You have a boner against Roger Clemens.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Wee Bairn

I don't see how some are painting McNamee out to be a bad guy at all in this

He's not "the bad guy," but it's pretty clear he is a sleaze. I think he's telling the truth, and his version of what happened is the only one that makes sense. But since he's testifying, his character is an issue. This is a guy who pretended to be a doctor, sold drugs to players illegally, and lost his job with the Yankees for allegedly drugging and raping a woman.

For the record, I think Canseco is dirt, too, even if he has been correct about parts of this steroid story. Strange how he changed his story about Clemens, isn't it?

Anyway, between this and the possible DNA, Clemens is in even more trouble than he was before. He didn't have to go to jail over any of this, either.

[robardin]

Originally Posted by Marley23

since he's testifying, his character is an issue. This is a guy who pretended to be a doctor, sold drugs to players illegally, and lost his job with the Yankees for allegedly drugging and raping a woman.

For the record, I think Canseco is dirt, too, even if he has been correct about parts of this steroid story. Strange how he changed his story about Clemens, isn't it?

As the old saying goes: there is no honor among sleaze.

[gonzomax]

Originally Posted by Least Original User Name Ever

You know, dad. You have a boner against Roger Clemens.

You say that because I said I thought he was on drugs years ago. Was I wrong? I did not have anything against him except he pretended to be a clean living good guy.

[Martin Hyde]

Originally Posted by gonzomax

You say that because I said I thought he was on drugs years ago. Was I wrong? I did not have anything against him except he pretended to be a clean living good guy.

I don't hold that against Roger. Do you really expect him to have said from day one, "Hey guys I've just started a steroid and HGH regimen so I can keep pitching into my old age." So many people juiced and pretty much no one came clean prior to the last few years (Ken Caminiti is one example of someone who actually came clean that stands out in my mind), so I don't hold the fact that Roger hid his use.

I've long had mixed feelings on Roger Clemens. When I first started following his career (when he was with the Red Sox) I just really was impressed with his ability. When he became a Yankee, as a life long Yankee fan I was very happy.

However, over the years the impression I got from scattered articles and scattered incidents was, that while Roger was definitely a work horse and a fine pitcher, he was a bit of an asshole. The whole hurling the baseball-bat at Mike Piazza stands out in my mind.

I remember at one point in the early '00s I viewed Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez as being two pitchers who gave off the "asshole" vibe. Both had a habit of throwing at batters when they got angry. Incidentally both were in the American League and didn't have to worry about getting thrown at themselves.

Over the past few years Pedro's image has been enhanced in my mind, and I genuinely believe Pedro when he says he was dominating baseball without the use of PEDs. He's one person I've never heard anything about as far as that is concerned.

I'm no fan of the steroids in baseball--but my basic policy has been I hold my ire for the sport as a whole for letting things get to this point. Any ballplayer who immediately comes clean and issues a mea culpa, I have a moderate degree of respect for--I still believe their records are tarnished, but at least they are being men about it. As much flak as Jason Giambi got at the time, I honestly think he's handled these issues better than most.

However when a player takes the path of continuing lying and obstinance, well then I'm going to grow a bit distasteful towards them.

Honestly, all these revelations make me wonder about where Roger now fits as a pitcher in this generation. The key thing in my opinion that Roger had over Greg Maddux has been his longevity, Roger has played better in old age. Well, now it looks like he's been able to do that with the help of PEDs, whereas Maddux has not used them. I have even more respect for Greg Maddux now than I did before, I and honestly may consider him the best pitcher of this generation. I think Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez have to enter into that discussion as well.

[gonzomax]

He pissed away his hall of fame and not into a specimen jar. He has shaken belief that people had in him. They were so much his fans and now they feel betrayed.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally Posted by Marley23

He's not "the bad guy," but it's pretty clear he is a sleaze. I think he's telling the truth, and his version of what happened is the only one that makes sense. But since he's testifying, his character is an issue. This is a guy who pretended to be a doctor, sold drugs to players illegally, and lost his job with the Yankees for allegedly drugging and raping a woman.

For the record, I think Canseco is dirt, too, even if he has been correct about parts of this steroid story. Strange how he changed his story about Clemens, isn't it?

Anyway, between this and the possible DNA, Clemens is in even more trouble than he was before. He didn't have to go to jail over any of this, either.

True, McNamee is a sleaze, but that's pretty normal in criminal investigations/trials. People get convicted every day on the testimony of sleazeballs. Drug dealers, Mafioso, bank robbers, etc. generally get convicted on the testimony of slimewad coconfederates making deals. The people who know where the bodies are buried usually aren't nuns. It's a deal with the devil that prosecutors routinely have to make.

Even though he's a scuzzbucket, McNamee's testimony has consistently panned out in this investigation. If it was his word alone, character might be an issue, but the testimony of Andy Pettite and now this complete box Rocket's in with the photographic evidence of him at the party I think are going to render McNamee's personal sleaziness all but moot.

Clemens better start talking to his lawyers about what kind of plea agreement will keep him out of prison because I don't see how he can keep trying to brazen his way out of this. It's not only the perjury but the real possibility of witness tampering.

[D_Odds]

Originally Posted by Martin Hyde

Honestly, all these revelations make me wonder about where Roger now fits as a pitcher in this generation. The key thing in my opinion that Roger had over Greg Maddux has been his longevity, Roger has played better in old age. Well, now it looks like he's been able to do that with the help of PEDs, whereas Maddux has not used them. I have even more respect for Greg Maddux now than I did before, I and honestly may consider him the best pitcher of this generation. I think Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez have to enter into that discussion as well.

Personally, I don't trust any of them when they say they haven't used. We simply don't know. Just because the 2 or 3 trainers whose names have come out haven't worked with Johnson, Martinez, or Maddux doesn't mean some other trainer hasn't injected them. For all we know, they all might have taken for the same reason Pettitte copped to - injury recovery (that is, if you want to believe Pettitte's story).

All professional sports have this problem. The only real question is just how big it is. Is it 25%, 50% or 75% of professional athletes?

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by Martin Hyde

I I remember at one point in the early '00s I viewed Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez as being two pitchers who gave off the "asshole" vibe. Both had a habit of throwing at batters when they got angry. Incidentally both were in the American League and didn't have to worry about getting thrown at themselves.

Martinez had the same reputation when he pitched for Los Angeles (briefly) and Montreal (for many years), where he did have to bat. Likeable or not, he is no coward.

Over the past few years Pedro's image has been enhanced in my mind, and I genuinely believe Pedro when he says he was dominating baseball without the use of PEDs. He's one person I've never heard anything about as far as that is concerned.

Well, it helps, too, that the guy was about 170 pounds soaking wet during his prime. If he took steroids he should get a refund.

Clemens dominated baseball before he took PEDs, too. There is no indication he took them prior to the mid-to-late 1990s, by which time he had already had many great seasons. In a lot of these cases we have a great player who was great without PEDs who took the roids to recover from injury or stay productive late in their career.

[gonzomax]

Whatever reason they took steroids or HGh ,it was wrong. Since they refuse to tell the truth ,we can not guess which records are clean and which are dirty. That means when we find a user ,we have to be suspicious of his whole career.

[drm]

Originally Posted by gonzomax

Whatever reason they took steroids or HGh ,it was wrong. Since they refuse to tell the truth ,we can not guess which records are clean and which are dirty. That means when we find a user ,we have to be suspicious of his whole career.

Isn't part of McNamee's story that he introduced Clemens to PEDs while starting in Toronto? If you believe one aspect of his story, aren't you kind of obligated to believe he was clean before that?

In general, I agree with you though.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Rocket is an arrogant nutcase. Beanballing Piazza and knocking him out, tossing the broken bat at him afterwards, spitting on someone at his son's baseball game, taking steroids, perjuring himself in front of a federal investigative panel...

...amazing.

[gonzomax]

Originally Posted by drm

Isn't part of McNamee's story that he introduced Clemens to PEDs while starting in Toronto? If you believe one aspect of his story, aren't you kind of obligated to believe he was clean before that?

In general, I agree with you though.

I don't know. That is why I wonder. I think the usage of drugs is far bigger than apparently most do.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by gonzomax

I don't know. That is why I wonder. I think the usage of drugs is far bigger than apparently most do.

I wonder how much of the drug use is directly related to maintaining large salaries to support a lifestyle they otherwise would not be able to afford if they suddenly were out of pro sports, versus wanting to play longer/better for "sheer love of the game" or for the purpose (Bonds) of setting a record.

Perhaps all of the above, but it's likely mostly the money. Otherwise, why risk the legacy if you truly cared about the game and how your legacy would be perceived after your playing days were over?

[D_Odds]

Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil

Rocket is an arrogant nutcase. Beanballing Piazza and knocking him out, tossing the broken bat at him afterwards, spitting on someone at his son's baseball game, taking steroids, perjuring himself in front of a federal investigative panel...

...amazing.

You forgot throwing at his own son in a pre-season game. Nothing like getting a brushback from dear ol' Dad.

[Omniscient]

Originally Posted by drm

Isn't part of McNamee's story that he introduced Clemens to PEDs while starting in Toronto? If you believe one aspect of his story, aren't you kind of obligated to believe he was clean before that?

Just to play Devil's Advocate, you could probably argue that McNamee introduced Clemens to these specific, hard to test for, performance enhancers. Nothing says he never used any more mainstream substances in his younger days when there was no talk about it and no testing.

[lieu]

Originally Posted by D_Odds

You forgot throwing at his own son in a pre-season game. Nothing like getting a brushback from dear ol' Dad.

Huh, well that makes twice. I first came to despise Roger when he threw at his son... when he was still in the womb. When his wife was pregnant he was pitching to her and threw freakin inside to back her off the plate. Regardless of one's control, how could you do that? Juicin' aside, that's just a bullshit thing for anyone to do.

[Contrapuntal]

What does PED stand for?

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by Contrapuntal

What does PED stand for?

Performance Enhancing Drugs.
Now give yourself a

[saoirse]

Originally Posted by Contrapuntal

What does PED stand for?

Performance Enhancing Drugs.

I was on Clemens' side at first. I saw his 60 Minutes interview, and the charge that his wife had used seemed too absurd to take seriously. The fact that he was so aggressive in his denials, that he went and sought out a chance to perjure himself really aggravates me.

[Wee Bairn]

Originally Posted by saoirse

Performance Enhancing Drugs.

I was on Clemens' side at first. I saw his 60 Minutes interview, and the charge that his wife had used seemed too absurd to take seriously. The fact that he was so aggressive in his denials, that he went and sought out a chance to perjure himself really aggravates me.

Exactly- they were going to cancel the hearings but Clemens insisted on them- he thought he was so suave he could sway the public with his consistent denials in the face of piles of evidence? What a tool.

[gonzomax]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...that_woul.html
This story says another major leaguer has said Roger was at the party. It suggests that perjury will be charged.

[Contrapuntal]

Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil

Performance Enhancing Drugs.
Now give yourself a

Caffeine is a performance enhancing drug. Smack yourself right back.

[Moriarty]

Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil

I wonder how much of the drug use is directly related to maintaining large salaries to support a lifestyle they otherwise would not be able to afford if they suddenly were out of pro sports, versus wanting to play longer/better for "sheer love of the game" or for the purpose (Bonds) of setting a record.

Perhaps all of the above, but it's likely mostly the money. Otherwise, why risk the legacy if you truly cared about the game and how your legacy would be perceived after your playing days were over?

I'm of the opinion that these athletes, who have acheived the pinnacle of success at a very strenuous profession, have a blind ambition that drives them far more than material things. I'm sure Clemens (and other superstar athletes) have so much money that it isn't even a thought anymore. And, at these late stages of their career (I'm one who believes Clemen's use probably came towards the end of his playing days), they already have the stats and the reputation for greatness.

Instead, they are just so driven by the need to perform, above and beyond the average, that they can't apply rational logic to their competiveness. Remember Michael Jordan's gambling issues? This wasn't somebody who needed to win to make money. Rather, it was someone who was so hyper-competitive that he just needed to win. I believe that the mentality of a player using PED falls along similar lines: an irrational competitive streak.

[gonzomax]

Roger had a long career and made a shit house full of money. He hung on for ego and glory. And now claims the HOF doesn't mean anything to him. Another lie.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I guess what I should have made clearer in my previous post was that most of the players getting nailed for roids, at least in baseball, are marginal players that likely "need" the money.
Oh, and I agree on Roger. Ego and glory. Hopefully he never gets the latter.

[Marley23]

With this stuff about Debbie Clemens and Jessica Canseco comparing their boob jobs at the party, I'm a little concerned. If this story gets any more ridiculous, it might cross over into legitimate tragedy, and that would suck.

[storyteller0910]

Originally Posted by Marley23

With this stuff about Debbie Clemens and Jessica Canseco comparing their boob jobs at the party, I'm a little concerned. If this story gets any more ridiculous, it might cross over into legitimate tragedy, and that would suck.

I'm not sure there's such a thing as a legitimate tragedy that includes the phrase "comparing their boob jobs."

[OneCentStamp]

Originally Posted by storyteller0910

I'm not sure there's such a thing as a legitimate tragedy that includes the phrase "comparing their boob jobs."

The tragedy is twofold: you and I weren't there, and there is no known video footage of the occasion.

[saoirse]

Originally Posted by Contrapuntal

Caffeine is a performance enhancing drug. Smack yourself right back.

Well, it is and is isn't. The PEDs that pro sports leagues ban are those that would either be prhibited de jure, or required de facto.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by storyteller0910

I'm not sure there's such a thing as a legitimate tragedy that includes the phrase "comparing their boob jobs."

I guess you've only read the edited versions of Hamlet.

[gonzomax]

Coffee is food, a necessity of life.

[Wee Bairn]

So Rog was yelling at photogs yesterday, and now he'll be investigated, and his brain dead lawyer comes out with this gem- can't his lawyer just shut his yapper as well?

"Roger knew all along that if he told what he knew to be the truth, he would be getting a criminal referral, yet he still chose to testify both by deposition under oath and in public under oath," Hardin said. "That should tell you something about how deeply he believes in what he is saying."



The only question now is when will his pal Dubya jump in and save him, and how public opinion on that will go with Marion Jones in prison for the exact same thing.

[Cervaise]

Originally Posted by OneCentStamp

The tragedy is twofold: you and I weren't there, and there is no known video footage of the occasion.

I guess that eleven-year-old kid couldn't be in two places at once.

[amarinth]

Originally Posted by PharmBoy

Now it's the Rocket's turn and I hope for his sake he cuts a deal fast and pleads out, because otherwise he is going to do time.

I will be deeply disappointed if he doesn't do time - seeing that Jones has a sentence.
I know which one is the more popular athlete in the more popular sport - but I will feel better if there's at least some vague pretense of fairness.

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by amarinth

I will be deeply disappointed if he doesn't do time - seeing that Jones has a sentence.

I couldn't care less if he does time. What's going to be vastly more entertaining is watching him melt down when the Hall of Fame rejects him the first time out.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by RickJay

I couldn't care less if he does time. What's going to be vastly more entertaining is watching him melt down when the Hall of Fame rejects him the first time out.

And every time thereafter, Xenu willing.