Bad analogy in the wine piece

[rbeggs]

Cecil,

I'm visiting your city and happened to pick up the March 27th issue of Chicago Reader. You use an analogy in your Straight Dope piece that's inappropriate and at the very least, mildly offensive.

"Just as there are people who own stereo systems capable of producing sound at a level of detail that no one of our species can possibly appreciate, there are people who feel that only a barnyard animal would consider drinking wine from anything but a crystal glass of a shape optimized for the specific grapes involved."

In fact, the very best stereo system obtainable still can't, and arguably may never, exceed the human ears ability to register dynamic range, sonic detail and incredibly minute amounts of distortion. Granted, many people lack the ability, desire or need to develop a sophisticated ear. These people shouldn't and usually don't go down the high end path. Others own the equipment of which you speak for the wrong reasons. There are also people who can perceive and appreciate the sonic subtleties you disparage, and what's more, aren't offensive about it. My livelihood and that of many who work in fields encompassed by professional audio and music happens to depend on that ability.

Richard Beggs, motion picture sound designer.

[Inner Stickler]

Hi rbeggs! It's considered polite here to include a link to the column you're referencing. I suspect this is the one you had in mind.

[Threadkiller]

Originally Posted by rbeggs

In fact, the very best stereo system obtainable still can't, and arguably may never, exceed the human ears ability to register dynamic range, sonic detail and incredibly minute amounts of distortion...There are also people who can perceive and appreciate the sonic subtleties you disparage, and what's more, aren't offensive about it. My livelihood and that of many who work in fields encompassed by professional audio and music happens to depend on that ability...

Prepare to be attacked mr. Beggs, just know that you bring this on yourself.

[Tapioca Dextrin]

Originally Posted by Cecil

"Just as there are people who own stereo systems capable of producing sound at a level of detail that no one of our species can possibly appreciate, there are people who feel that only a barnyard animal would consider drinking wine from anything but a crystal glass of a shape optimized for the specific grapes involved."

I think Cecil was indulging in a little hyperbole there. Coincidentally, the hyperbole is the optimum wine glass shape for tasting the wines of Southern Paraguay.

[guizot]

Originally Posted by Tapioca Dextrin

I think Cecil was indulging in a little hyperbole there. Coincidentally, the hyperbole is the optimum wine glass shape for tasting the wines of Southern Paraguay.

I'll have you know that I possess that particular glass, and it is not shaped like a hyperbole. It's a parabola.

Have you tried the 07s from French Guyana?

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by rbeggs

In fact, the very best stereo system obtainable still can't, and arguably may never, exceed the human ears ability to register dynamic range, sonic detail and incredibly minute amounts of distortion.

It's all relative. My ears can hardly register a doorbell any more.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Originally Posted by rbeggs

In fact, the very best stereo system obtainable still can't, and arguably may never, exceed the human ears ability to register dynamic range, sonic detail and incredibly minute amounts of distortion.

I notice that you don't mention frequency in there.

[rbeggs]

Exapno,

True about frequency. Frequency response was pretty much licked by the '70's. 30Hz to 18kHz or 20kHz is not at all uncommon even with a middling investment. But by our 40's a lot of us can't top 15k with our battered ears so there you go. The headbanging, rock and roll generation is in really bad shape. Many people in their 30's have hearing abilities once relegated to the '60's or latter.

[jjimm]

I fail to see how anything could be construed as "offensive" in that column. Unless, of course, you're a barnyard animal. (When you're not looking, they're all swilling Chateauneuf-du-Pape out of Waterford crystal goblets.)

[detop]

Originally Posted by guizot

Have you tried the 07s from French Guyana?

Which one ? the red, the white or the puce one ?

[Peter Morris]

deleted - wrong thread

[Cagey Drifter]

According to this seemingly even-handed Slate article, the shape of the glass does affect flavor due to its influence on where the wine falls on one's palate.

[bonzer]

Possibly just as well that rbeggs never stumbled acoss this (very) old Cecil column.

[Indistinguishable]

Originally Posted by Cagey Drifter

According to this seemingly even-handed Slate article, the shape of the glass does affect flavor due to its influence on where the wine falls on one's palate.

But what would that matter? I thought the whole thing about different parts of the tongue being sensitive to different tastes was simply a persistent but erroneous myth.

[Askance]

Originally Posted by Cagey Drifter

According to this seemingly even-handed Slate article, the shape of the glass does affect flavor due to its influence on where the wine falls on one's palate.

That's what the Riedel people told me. But that could only possibly have any effect for the fraction of a second when wine was on that part of your palate but nowhere else. Soon the wine is everywhere in your mouth and the aroma is up your nose, so I just don't believe it.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by rbeggs

Exapno,

True about frequency. Frequency response was pretty much licked by the '70's. 30Hz to 18kHz or 20kHz is not at all uncommon even with a middling investment. But by our 40's a lot of us can't top 15k with our battered ears so there you go. The headbanging, rock and roll generation is in really bad shape. Many people in their 30's have hearing abilities once relegated to the '60's or latter.

I was thinking about this, too. Producers of SACD players claim frequency response upwards of 80kHz, which I understood to be inaudible to the human ear. "So if you can't hear it, what's the point?", I thought.
But I also have read in some audiophile mags that the reproduction of these upper-range frequencies **can** be perceived by audiophiles with a finely tuned ear as an "extension of detail or ambience" that isn't captured on standard recording/playback formats.

So with regards to wine glasses, I thought it was a pretty clever analogy, myself, because just like audiophiles that have trained ears, oenophiles have highly sensitive and practiced noses and palates, and they have demonstrated that certain varietals are more expansive and expressive given certain glass shapes and surface to air exposure ratios. The carbonation effect with flutes for sparkling wines is well understood as well.

Of course, as always, YMMV, and there is certainly a proportion of people that own these glasses because they can afford them, not that they can appreciate them, just as some affluent people buy the best stereo they can afford without every fully appreciating it's capabiities.

And the image of barnyard animals swilling CdP from Waterford goblets had me rolling! Especially since many Southern Rhone reds have that "barnyardy" descriptor attached to their bouquets!

[OneCentStamp]

Originally Posted by rbeggs

Many people in their 30's have hearing abilities once relegated to the '60's or latter.

I'm sorry, would you mind repeating that, a little louder? Here, say it into my right ear.

[NinetyWt]

Originally Posted by guizot

it is not shaped like a hyperbole. It's a parabola.

Mine's both.

[Mikemike2]

Mr. Beggs, I believe Cecil was referring to the "more expensive must be better" snobbery frequently seen by wine connoisseurs and audiophiles. One example that has been recently discussed is whether extremely expensive speaker wire (hundreds of dollars per foot) can improve the sound over high quality wire that costs several dollars per foot.

[C K Dexter Haven]

Originally Posted by Indistinguishable

But what would that matter? I thought the whole thing about different parts of the tongue being sensitive to different tastes was simply a persistent but erroneous myth.

Agreed, the notion that different parts of the tongue are differently sensitized is well disproved. Methinks that, perhaps, the Riedel folks have a very sophisticated sales approach that is effective with those who are vulnerable to such things.

[Derleth]

Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil

But I also have read in some audiophile mags that the reproduction of these upper-range frequencies **can** be perceived by audiophiles with a finely tuned ear as an "extension of detail or ambience" that isn't captured on standard recording/playback formats.

I'd like to see some double-blind tests demonstrating this. I don't think I've ever actually seen any offered up to support this thesis.

[Wallenstein]

Originally Posted by Derleth

I'd like to see some double-blind tests demonstrating this. I don't think I've ever actually seen any offered up to support this thesis.

This study, which has been quoted before on SDMB, showed that even soi disant audio experts can't reliably tell the difference between a CD and a 256K mp3.

(Text in Kraut - english version here)

With that in mind, it seems even more of a stretch that the types of high-end variations described upthread would be reliably perceived.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by Derleth

I'd like to see some double-blind tests demonstrating this. I don't think I've ever actually seen any offered up to support this thesis.

Oh, I doubt it can be actually proven one way or another, as terms like "detail" and "ambient effect" aren't scientifically measurable, IIRC.
I only stated that I'd read it, I don't know if I believe it or not.

I used to sell fine wine, and anecdotally speaking, I think the differing wine glass variations are partly useful and partly for show (and extremely less durable than standard wineglasses).

They are great for swirling without spilling, I'll give them at least that!

[Derleth]

Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil

Oh, I doubt it can be actually proven one way or another, as terms like "detail" and "ambient effect" aren't scientifically measurable, IIRC.

Read Wallenstein's post: If the audiophiles can't tell the difference between the stuff they tout and the stuff they deride, the reasonable explanation is that they don't know what they're talking about.

[aerodave]

Originally Posted by rbeggs

My livelihood and that of many who work in fields encompassed by professional audio and music happens to depend on that ability.

I suspect that it's more accurate to say that the livelihood of professional audio types depends on people who believe their own ability is more than it really is. And it also depends on trying to keep that myth from being dispelled. The grand illusion of being able to discern fourth-order nuances is key to making people spend lots of money on gear. If certain people ever discovered that they couldn't hear half the things the think they do, the market for multi-thousand-dollar-per-foot cables might evaporate.

[victorslinda]

It so does make a difference in the glasses you drink wine out of!!! They don't have to be Reidel but just a good glass that you can swirl and get your nose in!

[andros]

Originally Posted by C K Dexter Haven

Methinks that, perhaps, the Riedel folks have a very sophisticated sales approach that is effective with those who are vulnerable to such things.

Actually, for the most part their pitch is based on getting the same wine into multiple glasses and having people taste each. For Joe Boxwine it's usually a nice Bordeaux glass and a jelly jar, just to demonstrate the gross differences. For the more experienced wine drinker it's going to be different types of glass and the different shapes.

I sell wine for a living these days, and have been to several Riedel tastings. I can definitely tell the difference in a big French red between a big ol' red wine glass and a little white wine glass, just as I can differentiate between a six-dollar bottle of claret and a fifty-dollar bottle of Bordeaux.

My palate cannot determine any difference between a Syrah glass and a Bordeaux glass, or between a Pinot Noir glass and an Oregon Pinot Noir glass. But I'm prepared to accept that some people's palates might be able to.

As for the OP, if you honestly find that offensive, you need to grow some skin. It might be factually incorrect, but offensive? Dude, seriously. A grip. Get one.
.

[Vorpal Blade]

Originally Posted by victorslinda

It so does make a difference in the glasses you drink wine out of!!! They don't have to be Reidel but just a good glass that you can swirl and get your nose in!

Just be sure to wash the jelly out first, very carefully.

[mwbrooks]

Originally Posted by rbeggs

True about frequency. Frequency response was pretty much licked by the '70's. 30Hz to 18kHz or 20kHz is not at all uncommon even with a middling investment. But by our 40's a lot of us can't top 15k with our battered ears so there you go. The headbanging, rock and roll generation is in really bad shape. Many people in their 30's have hearing abilities once relegated to the '60's or latter.

Folks old enough to relate to this might remember the cartoon in High Fidelity (remember High Fidelity?) with a pair of speakers in a showroom and a placard reading something like "Senior Citizen's Special--50Hz-15kHz."

Back to the OP, I believe the original question referred to wine in plastic cups. I really don't like wine much in anything (boor that I am). For reasons I can't explain, I much prefer to drink my milk out of a glass glass. With Oreos.

There is a Bourbon that I like. Smells like old model airplanes--that subtle blend of hardwood and alcohol. (Balsa is a hardwood.) Just imagine mixing Bourbon in a cocktail with a little Castor oil, nitromethane, and maybe a whiff of acetone. I'd call it a Ziac (after the modeller, not the drug).

[Seriously, kids, don't try this recipe at home. It's a joke.]

[Tapioca Dextrin]

Originally Posted by C K Dexter Haven

Methinks that, perhaps, the Riedel folks have a very sophisticated sales approach that is effective with those who are vulnerable to such things.

Much like the approach used by, say, the folks at Monster Cables then

[Khampelf]

Boones Farm! Dixie Cups! 8-Track Tapes!

Sorry, My Inner Trailer park done run amok.