I know the Brits continued to have a few Irish Regiments for Ulster (and all Ireland-regiments as well like the Irish Guards, the six south Ireland regiments were disbanded), and that they continued to use Irish soldiers (Irish meaning non 6 county here for claritys sake). But the other day, I ran into some (what I thought were Brits) in a Ice cream place here (I am from Islamabad, Pakistan) and it turned out that
i) They were British Army on leave from Afghanistan (a common enough thing here these days)
ii) All 6 of them were from the South of Ireland, (3 from Dublin and one from County Cork).
which raises the question
a) why do Irishmen still join the Brits in such numbers, one of the soldiers said they have always been more Irishmen in Britains army than in the Irish Defence Force.
b) While I suppose when Ireland was one of Europes poorest nations it made sence, but now with the Celtic tiger economy, should’nt that be less of a concern?
c) Did Irishmen serve in N Ireland during the troubles? Could have been dangerous for them, PIRA may have targeted them specifically. Not to mention a conflict of interest.
The pay? Adventure? (The Irish army is involved in peacekeeping missions abroad, nothing as hot as the antics of the British army)
Ireland has always been a neutral state, they have no need for force projection, sending their army abroad to fight as the US and UK would. Anyone trying to invade Ireland would have to fight through or around Europe, while not a NATO member, I would think other European nations would come to Ireland’s aid.
There are Catholics in the security forces in Northern Ireland, whether they would see themselves as Irish would be for them to decide. Certainly it would be hard to go home to a Catholic/Irish nationalist community while your neighbours knew you were in the police or Army. A policeman mentioned in conversation to my Mum that the town where she and Dad live would not be a good place for a police officer to live.
As I said for claritys sake, Ireland here means the 26 counties or the Republic. Not to say that N Ireland is not Ireland or its citizens Irish or not (and I am not entering that debate), the question related to the citizens of the Republic, not from the 6 counties of Ulster. It seems that more republic citizens are in the Britsih forces than their own countrys forces and that this trend continues. And woul’nt Republic Citizens who served in N Ireland have a problem with their own communities. I mean imagine if one of the Paras on Bloody Sunday was from the Republic (and who knows there might have been), the poor fellow would never have been able to go home. The gentleman I was honoured to meet were all from the Republic. They seemed to have no qualm about serving her majesty, despite their govs official position.
I don’t have a cite but I’d always understood that a posting in Northern Ireland could be refused by any soldier in any regiment due to the nature of the conflict and the attendant risk for family members.
Hi, I doubt if postings could be avoided, seems to go against British Army operating procedure otherwise muslim soldiers could refuse deployment to Iraq or Afghanistan. It dose make a strange situation though; that you have citizens of the Republic in N Ireland, trying to stop PIRA from their aim of a union of Ulster with the Republic of Ireland.
Yes, but even if someone were in favor of unification of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, they could also be in favor of tracking down people who plant bombs and suchlike.
There are all sorts of political goals that I support, yet I would also support arresting and convicting people who used violence in an attempt to further those political goals. I’m in favor of adopting the metric system, I’m also in favor of locking up any hypothetical metric system bombers.
Well, the British Army would have a clear reason to grant such requests: you would hardly want soldiers to be serving with ‘divided loyalties’.
It could be a security risk: in casual conversation with relatives or friends, a soldier could accidentally reveal information that might get back to the opponents. To say nothing of the increased risk that a soldier might be ‘turned’, and actively become an informant for them.
My oppo in the mob had a brother in the Irish Army, so the family had a son in each army.
Colonel Collins, in his Rules of Engagement (2006) notes that his men in 1 Royal Irish could frequently identify people in the rioting crowd, having gone to school with them.
If an Irishman wants to go soldiering with a view to combat, and doesn’t care to faff about with citizenship, he’s not got many choices - the British Army and the Foreign Legion are the only two that spring to mind, and the latter is dubious wrt citizenship…
There are any number of reasons for an Irishman to join the British Army. For example;
Family history. A not insignificant amount of Irishmen fought in the British Army in World War II and children of servicemen often consider joining up as a viable career.
Adventure. Some people want to fight in wars, the Irish Defence Forces play a part in UN peace keeping missions but as stated above Ireland is a neutral country.
Economics. Although the Celtic Tiger phase has led to a huge amount of job creation and economic growth in Ireland there are still those for whom a career in the British Army would be their best opportunity. Although Third level education here is not fee-based it can still be expensive to attend a college. I believe the British Army provides educational opportunities etc to its members.
I’ve heard that Irishmen who serve in the British Army generally do not refuse to serve in NI . Partly it’s a badge of honour but also I would imagine there would be peer pressure to go the extra mile.
Ireland’s relationship with Britain is and has always been complex. There are myriad economic and cultural ties between the two islands that no amount of reductive politics can eliminate.
Yes, sorry, I got a bit carried away with my urge to share local knowledge.
Republicans were a bit funny targeting off duty soldiers. The TA barracks for example are very lightly protected, far less than a police station but AFAIK, they were never a target for the IRA as the soldiers there were never on the ground in Northern Ireland so to speak, being sent abroad on tours of duty. Similarly, the Official IRA got in a bit of trouble from Nationalists when they shot dead a Catholic from Northern Ireland who was returning from duty abroad.
So no, I don’t think they would have deliberately targeted anyone who they discovered was from the Republic. I don’t think it would have gone down well with the general populace of the Republic if someone was shot dead in their own home, for reasons to do with affairs in another country. The IRA liked to cross the border to seek refuge from the security forces of the UK, they would have found themselves in difficulty in a country where they didn’t have as much hardened (to my eyes) support and a police force actively pursuing them for a crime they committed in that country.
As for targeting an individual, any soldier was a goal, to have killed an individual would have perhaps made the task excessively complex, the IRA was a terribly efficient organisation when it came to killing after all.
Pretty much, it was a PSNI officer who mentioned it to Mum, not too long ago. I doubt anyone would get shot over it today though, it would be more of a serious social faux pas.
How much dose the Irish Army pay in comparison to the Brits? And I know that Brits do not generally pay for foreign colleges, their attempts at recruitent in this former colony have suffered becaue of that.
To my own personal knowledge there were Irishmen from Eire in at least two of the regiments most hated by the republican terrorists during the troubles and they were extremely proud of their regiments and voluntarily served in N.I.
One I knews family were unaware that he was serving in the British Army.
Another one was on an IRA death list because of his service.
I dont want to get into the whole" this army is better then that army thing"but the difference in the standard of training,discipline and aggression is of a completely different order between the Irish army and the British army and part of the reason Paddys wanted to serve in the Brit.Army instead of the Irish.
Which regiments would those be, I know the Paras came in for rough treatment after bloody sunday, and the Irish Guards were often attacked due to the “irish” in their name but otherwise?
Reply from a member on Boards.ie where I asked the question…
the saying is no longer true by a very wide margin (if it were it would indicate that that very roughly 10% of the current British Army were Irish - although 10% of the current British Army is ‘foreign’ it’s more a magic mix of Southern Africans, Australians and New Zealanders, Canadians and West Indians than Battalions of Irishmen.
they join for as many reasons as there are soldiers, and the Irish Army - due to its limited establishment - can be difficult and slow to get into, as well as being a ‘small pond’ to swim in.
there were (are?) also social and economic reasons to join the BA (or indeed just go to Britain as a civilian migrant) Ireland - compared to Britain - was comparatively poor, agrarian, highly (oppressively?) religious and parochial. if, on top of not wanting to live in Catholic Theocracy that also happened to be dirt poor you wanted to see the world and maybe get a bit of action as well, the opportunity to join the BA was pretty much heaven sent.
the political aspects are for everyman’s individual conscience, and the economic and social imperatives no longer exist to anything like the degree they once did, but the vocational ones do. you could liken the situation to a would-be Law undergraduate deciding which sponsorship to accept - the local, slightly comfortable firm that deals with probate, divorce, conveyancing and the odd Drink-Drive case, or the offer from Price Waterhouse or Matrix that will lead to the most rigorous cases affecting society as a whole on the most fundamental issues of Law.
short version: Ireland is very obviously no longer dirt poor, and equally obviously no longer a Catholic Theocracy, but if your vocation is that of Soldier - and you really want to put yourself and your skills to the test, and if you want to play with the big boys toys (MLRS, Challenger 2, Warrior, AH-64D Apache etc…) then you don’t join the Irish Army.
An excellent question and some good replies. As someone pointed out Ireland has always had a complex relationship with Britain. Even during the height of the ‘troubles’ many from the republic joined the British military. Despite what many believe, most people in the Republic had little time for the IRA although they might share the ideal of a united Ireland. They despised their methods and considered them as much of a threat to Republic as they were to the British. I shared that view.
I was a in the Irish equivalent of the TA. Many of my comrades went on to careers as full time soldiers. Some to the Irish army and the even the foreign legion but quite a few to Britain. At least one of my comrades joined the Parachute regiment and later went on to be an officer. I suspect he may well have later joined or attempted to join the SAS. We also had several ex British army NCOs in our ranks including an excellent sergeant formerly of the Irish Guards.
The SAS always had quite a few Irishmen serving, not just from the North.
In school in Dublin, during the 70s during the worst of the troubles in the North, one of our classmates made no secret of his intention to leave school and join the Royal Navy as soon as he was old enough. At no point was he bullied or attacked about this. Quite the opposite, several classmates expressed an interest in doing the same.
I have friend who came from Cavan town which is on the border. A town teeming with republican sympathisers. He joined the Irish Guards and neither he nor his family suffered any harassment because of it. He even served in the North a few miles from his home town.
I attempted to join the RAF or RN as aircrew and later considered the British army. Sadly I was unable to join. The reasons as pointed out by the last poster were nothing to do with politics or lack of work at home. I simply wanted a military career. I did try to become an officer in the Irish army but that route was closed.
I think I was typical of many who did join the British military. I was proud to be Irish although ashamed of what the IRA did in my name. I had no anti British attitudes and had no qualms about serving in Northern Ireland against the IRA. So joining the British military simply meant the opportunity to have an interesting career.
I suspect that continues to be the motivation now that peace has broken out in the North. If you are a young man in the Republic with a desire for a military career. You have two choices. The Irish Defence forces or the British. You can have a good career with the Irish army, even serve overseas. But as the last poster pointed out the British army simply provides more opportunities and the possibility of seeing action, which is always a motivation of young men. (They soon learn of course) Also if you want to be a commissioned officer there is a better chance in the British army. Irish army cadetships are small in number and oversubscribed.
I think that is the essential motivation currently. On top of that there is no longer any real fear of imtimidation from certain elements. You don’t have to keep your head down anymore.
So. Serving in the North was never a damper for people. And it did not put you in much danger, even when it was common knowledge that you were serving in the the British Army and in the North.