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Old 04-08-2008, 05:55 PM
Reloy3 Reloy3 is offline
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Where did the Angel and Devil arguing on a character's shoulder start?

Question is pretty much as presented? When did the scene found in so many movies and tv shows come from? You know the scene, an action figure sized little angel and devil, often looking like the conflicted character, try to persuade the main characer to do either the right or wrong thing. It seems to hae been around forever. Anyone know where it started?


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  #2  
Old 04-08-2008, 06:01 PM
Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor is offline
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Don't know--but would bet that Will Eisner had a lot to do with it.
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Old 04-08-2008, 07:03 PM
Fretful Porpentine Fretful Porpentine is offline
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The angel / devil setup comes from the medieval morality plays, which date back at least as far as the fifteenth century. I'd bet that the image made its way into contemporary pop culture via Marlowe's Dr. Faustus (early 1590s).

That said, obviously none of the early stage versions would have featured an action-figure-sized angel and devil standing on the character's shoulders, since it's pretty hard to do that with live actors. I have no idea where that part comes from.
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Old 04-08-2008, 07:07 PM
Peter Morris Peter Morris is offline
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Doctor Faustus received advice from a good angel and a bad angel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tra...Doctor_Faustus
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Old 04-08-2008, 07:42 PM
Apocalypso Apocalypso is offline
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I don't know, but you can get your own here
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Old 04-09-2008, 12:31 PM
furryman furryman is offline
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I have the sudden urge to take my Angel action figure and my devil girl action figure and have a pretend argument somewhere public.
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Old 04-09-2008, 12:32 PM
beowulff beowulff is online now
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Animal House.
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Old 04-09-2008, 12:48 PM
Thudlow Boink Thudlow Boink is offline
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According to something I ran across on Wikipedia (and file under "Wow, I never knew that"), they derive from Islamic "Kiraman Katibin."
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Old 04-09-2008, 01:18 PM
Reloy3 Reloy3 is offline
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Wow, much older than I thought. I was going to guess some 1930's comedy. Learn something new every day.
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Old 04-09-2008, 01:20 PM
Indistinguishable Indistinguishable is online now
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I'd take the Kiraman Katibin thing with a grain of salt. I don't see any references on the Wikipedia article to back it up.
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Old 04-09-2008, 01:56 PM
Peter Morris Peter Morris is offline
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but over 1800 Google references, though.
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Old 04-09-2008, 04:01 PM
Ponster Ponster is offline
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I'd take the Kiraman Katibin thing with a grain of salt.
This made me chuckle - I was told the reason you throw spilt salt over your left shoulder was to hit the devil sitting there.
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Old 04-09-2008, 04:12 PM
This'll Do This'll Do is offline
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My Latin prof said this literary device was called psychomachia. Wiki cites the poem, but doesn't mention this use of the word. Anybody else ever heard this?
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Old 04-09-2008, 05:58 PM
Simplicio Simplicio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indistinguishable
I'd take the Kiraman Katibin thing with a grain of salt. I don't see any references on the Wikipedia article to back it up.
Even if Islamic tradition is the source, I'd be interested to know how the idea made the transition to Western cartoons.
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Old 04-09-2008, 06:04 PM
Simplicio Simplicio is offline
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This site claims its from Lend a Paw, a 1941 Disney cartoon with Pluto being urged by shoulder angels/devils
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Old 04-09-2008, 06:27 PM
Simplicio Simplicio is offline
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Here's Lend a Paw. The mini devil and angel don't actually appear on Pluto's shoulders, they just walk/fly around. Interestingly the same mini devil appears in Mickey's Elephant (1936) without his angel companion.

I'm thinking that the origin isn't really from the Islamic tradition mentioned above. It looks like Disney cartoonists simply first used the device of a tempting devil from the Christian tradition and from there it was natural to add an angel in the later cartoon. Presumably some later cartoonists put them on someones shoulder (though I'm guessing that innovation happened with a different character then Pluto since 1) The database I found of Disney characters doesn't have any further appearences of the "Pluto's devil" character till the '90s and 2) Pluto doesn't really have shoulders). In anycase, I'd be interesting if someone knows when the mini angel/demon moved up to peoples shoulders.

Of course, that website I linked to might be wrong, and the Disney cartoonists might be drawing on an earlier instance of the device.

ETA: other interesting fact, while googling I found a Time magazine article about Lend a Paw that states the voice of the angel is supposed an imitation of Eleanor Roosevelt.j

Last edited by Simplicio; 04-09-2008 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 04-09-2008, 09:22 PM
Simplicio Simplicio is offline
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Heh, sorry about all the consecutive posts. Googling "angel on my shoulder" is giving me something to do while I fill out tax forms.

This film from '46, both the title and the movie poster shown, are pretty obviously meant to recall the shoulder angel/devil motif. So I'd say that it was well known in the US by then at least, which is making me question the idea of arguing devil/angel first appearing in the 1941 Disney cartoon.
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Old 04-10-2008, 10:50 AM
C K Dexter Haven C K Dexter Haven is offline
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The concept of a person being followed/watched by a good angel and a bad angel pre-dates Islam, there's a talmudic reference somewhere (perhaps one of our talmud-experts will be more specific.)

The idea of the angels sitting on the shoulders is much more visual, and probably does date from cartoon days.
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Old 05-29-2014, 03:09 PM
Puffin88 Puffin88 is offline
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Shoulder angels in a 1935 movie

I just noticed the shoulder angels being used in a 1935 movie called "To Beat The Band"
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Old 05-29-2014, 04:02 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is offline
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Was there ever a point where a lot of people thought when they died they became angels?

I think The Littlest Angel scarred me as a child. But old Warner Bros. cartoons also show people going up to heaven with wings on.
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Old 05-29-2014, 05:36 PM
Penfeather Penfeather is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simplicio View Post
I'm thinking that the origin isn't really from the Islamic tradition mentioned above. It looks like Disney cartoonists simply first used the device of a tempting devil from the Christian tradition and from there it was natural to add an angel in the later cartoon. Presumably some later cartoonists put them on someones shoulder (though I'm guessing that innovation happened with a different character then Pluto since 1) The database I found of Disney characters doesn't have any further appearences of the "Pluto's devil" character till the '90s and 2) Pluto doesn't really have shoulders). In anycase, I'd be interesting if someone knows when the mini angel/demon moved up to peoples shoulders.
That Wikipedia article is particularly terrible; it doesn't even touch on cartoon representations, where the trope seems to have found its modern form. Hergé was particularly fond of the trope and may have codified it from existing "tempting devil and advising angel" motifs. The saintly Tintin was seldom affected, but the more mundane Captain Haddock and Snowy were frequently lured by whiskey or bones. In The Red Sea Sharks from 1958 Captain Haddock had the miniature angel and devil perched on each shoulder, counseling him to either abstain or drink.
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:10 PM
jsc1953 jsc1953 is online now
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In a Halloween episode of Modern Family, 3 boys are walking down a street. In the middle is one of the main characters (Manny, for those who don't watch) flanked by his cousin Luke in a devil costume, and an unnamed friend wearing the uniform of the Los Angeles Angels baseball team. Naturally, the two are giving Manny conflicting advice.
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