I pit NBC's coverage of the Kentucky Derby in the wake of Eight Belles' death

[John DiFool]

Frankly I am flabbergasted. Bob Costas alludes to her death in his intro before the trophy presentation, and then the subject of her death is completely dropped. We hear of her being euthanized, and then cut to a scene of everybody in Big Brown's entourage jumping up and down and screaming. Yeah they may not have gotten word yet but NBC sure did.

Imagine the 2001 Daytona 500, and we all get confirmation of Dale Sr.'s death before the winning car* enters Victory Lane, and everybody just pretends that it didn't happen and they all scream and yell in elation and the network interviews the winner, while Dale Sr. is growing cold in his tarp-draped metal coffin, forgotten.

An actual precedent is the 1955 Le Mans disaster where 8 hours in a driver loses control and plows into a crowd killing himself and 80 other people; the winners were all hyper-like in victory and many observers found that to be in extremely bad taste. And unlike a race car driver a horse doesn't really have the choice to risk death (and many thoroughbreds indeed die each year in races big and small).

Suffice it to say I will not be watching any more Triple Crown races on NBC in well never.

[*Yeah the actual winner, Michael Waltrip, was a driver for Dale Sr.'s race team, and I remember him expressing some concern during his winner's interview.]

[OtakuLoki]

Just out of curiosity - can anyone offer a rough estimate of how many horses die annually during their racing careers*? Obviously I can remember a couple big names, like Ruffian, or that horse last year (or so) that broke its leg, but since I pay little attention to any kind of racing I hadn't thought much about the implications.


*I'm wording it that way to try to include deaths from travel stresses, as well as misadventure on the track, itself. Because without racing the horse would not likely have been traveling, after all.

[Absolute]

First of all, it's a horse, not a human being. It is unreasonable to expect people to get as worked up about the death of a horse as you would like them to. I mean, come on - you're drawing parallels between the death of a horse, and the death of 81 people? Horses are great and all, but they're not people.

Second, I don't follow horse racing, but it sure seems like it's a dangerous event for horses, because of how extremely fragile breeding for races has made them. Maybe you should be upset at the sport as a whole, instead of the single instance of the larger problem?

[John DiFool]

Well yeah I am of that too. Just the incredible lack of tact and compassion on the part of those involved, even if an animal's death isn't the equal of that of a human being. No teary-eyed interviews of her owners as they have to deal with their grief.

I apologize in advance if I broke a spoiler rule here: I hereby give admin permission to spoilerize the title ("I pit NBC's coverage of the Kentucky Derby after the end of the race").

[Contrapuntal]

Originally Posted by John DiFool

Imagine the 2001 Daytona 500, and we all get confirmation of Dale Sr.'s death before the winning car* enters Victory Lane, and everybody just pretends that it didn't happen and they all scream and yell in elation and the network interviews the winner, while Dale Sr. is growing cold in his tarp-draped metal coffin, forgotten.

Especially if he had taken a bullet in the brain because of two broken ankles.

[El Cid Viscoso]

Fuck you Kentucky. Fuck you Kent Desormeaux. Fuck you Gabriel Saez. I hope you and your trainers, managers, owners, shareholders, families and every little child in the audience all wake up one day with two broken ankles.

Until all humans decide to stop fucking around with this world like it's full of animate objects we will never progress. Until then, come Armageddon, come.

[Wee Bairn]

If the average KD viewer gave a shit about the lives of the horses, they wouldn't be fans of animal racing in the first place.

[Vlad/Igor]

Originally Posted by Wee Bairn

If the average KD viewer gave a shit about the lives of the horses, they wouldn't be fans of animal racing in the first place.

Why don't you come on out to see a horse farm before you start telling us all about what you think is going on. I live 10 miles from the track. Do you?

[OtakuLoki]

Originally Posted by El Cid Viscoso

Fuck you Kentucky. Fuck you Kent Desormeaux. Fuck you Gabriel Saez. I hope you and your trainers, managers, owners, shareholders, families and every little child in the audience all wake up one day with two broken ankles.

Just out of curiosity - do you recall the expense, suffering and effort that went into the failed attempt to save the life of the second race horse, Barbaro, I'd mentioned in my first post to this thread?

It is my understanding that for the vast majority of cases broken legs, or ankles, on horses cannot be recovered from. The care is hugely expensive, and has a poor chance of working. And during this time the horse is extremely uncomfortable, unable to exercise, nor can it understand what's going on.

Euthanasia in such circumstances does not seem unreasonable.

[Myrnalene]

No teary-eyed interviews of her owners as they have to deal with their grief.

This is what you wanted to see? That would be more respectful?
I'm astonished you're put off because network coverage was not maudlin and sensational for once.

Her team was not available for comment in the immediate aftermath of the race, anyway. They were slightly busy.

[El Cid Viscoso]

Originally Posted by OtakuLoki

Just out of curiosity - do you recall the expense, suffering and effort that went into the failed attempt to save the life of the second race horse, Barbaro, I'd mentioned in my first post to this thread?

It is my understanding that for the vast majority of cases broken legs, or ankles, on horses cannot be recovered from. The care is hugely expensive, and has a poor chance of working. And during this time the horse is extremely uncomfortable, unable to exercise, nor can it understand what's going on.

Euthanasia in such circumstances does not seem unreasonable.

His case was laminitis. I own and treat two horses with laminitis. They have survived 3 and 5 years beyond their diagnosis.

[Contrapuntal]

Originally Posted by OtakuLoki

Just out of curiosity - do you recall the expense, suffering and effort that went into the failed attempt to save the life of the second race horse, Barbaro, I'd mentioned in my first post to this thread?

It is my understanding that for the vast majority of cases broken legs, or ankles, on horses cannot be recovered from. The care is hugely expensive, and has a poor chance of working. And during this time the horse is extremely uncomfortable, unable to exercise, nor can it understand what's going on.

Euthanasia in such circumstances does not seem unreasonable.

I'm voting for whoosh.

[El Cid Viscoso]

Originally Posted by Contrapuntal

I'm voting for whoosh.

Oh you think if you can dole them out you can spot them too?

[OtakuLoki]

Originally Posted by El Cid Viscoso

His case was laminitis. I own and treat two horses with laminitis. They have survived 3 and 5 years beyond their diagnosis.

I thought Barbaro's case was laminitis as a complication of a broken leg. Not simply laminitis, but laminitis in three legs by the time the owners and care team chose to euthanize the animal.

Do you disagree with this quote from the article I linked above? (Something I've heard time and time again.)

Originally Posted by wikipedia article on Barbaro

Barbaro's injuries were life-threatening, partially because a thoroughbred's breeding optimizes its anatomy for speed rather than durability. Unlike other mammals, such as dogs, a horse cannot survive in humane circumstances on three legs. A single broken leg in a horse can lead to complications as the other legs attempt to bear the weight of the horse's body.

I'm not a horse expert, I freely admit that. But I used to be interested in veterinary medicine, and did a bit of general reading on the subject. Everything that I'd ever read indicated that saving a horse with one broken leg is iffy, at best. From what you and others have said in this thread, Eight Belles had two broken ankles. What else should they have done?


If I got whooshed, forgive me.

[El Cid Viscoso]

Originally Posted by OtakuLoki

From what you and others have said in this thread, Eight Belles had two broken ankles. What else should they have done?

Nuked the Derby from orbit, before the race.

Horses don't need to run for a living. Little child horses like Barbaro and 8 Belles shouldn't run, competitively, at all.

Barbaro was put down ultimately for humane reasons. As in they'd gathered gallons of his goo and he'd suddenly outweighed his usefulness.

From your link, bolding added: "[Barbaro] is a third-generation descendant of Mr. Prospector, and as such Barbaro is related to many recent Triple Crown hopefuls including Funny Cide, Afleet Alex, Big Brown, Eight Belles, Smarty Jones and Fusaichi Pegasus."

[RTFirefly]

As the late Hunter Thompson pointed out a few decades back, the Kentucky Derby is decadent and depraved.

[Wee Bairn]

Originally Posted by Vlad/Igor

Why don't you come on out to see a horse farm before you start telling us all about what you think is going on. I live 10 miles from the track. Do you?

I know million dollar horses are treated much better than greyhounds for example, and live lives of luxury, but still, are forced to do something that often results in their death for the amusement of humans- horse racing isn't on the level of greyhound racing, bullfighting and dogfighting, to be sure, but still, would that horse be dead if not for the greed of humans? I love animals too, and if I had the money would probably have horses, but wouldn't engage them in something unnecessary that could cause their death. And I'm sure Michael Vick really loved his top dog, too.

And the argument that horses really love running, fine, but don't beat them when they aren't going fast enough.

[KarlGrenze]

Originally Posted by El Cid Viscoso

His case was laminitis. I own and treat two horses with laminitis. They have survived 3 and 5 years beyond their diagnosis.

Laminitis as a complication of a broken leg. His implants were working perfectly, but he didn't have a sound leg yet in which to fall back after developing laminitis on the others.

And yea, laminitis, depending on the severity of it, can be treated and the animals live for many years... but that is with care and treatment, which (as far as I know) does not include racing. Thoroughbreds that cannot race or be used for breeding are SOL.

[DigitalC]

Originally Posted by Vlad/Igor

Why don't you come on out to see a horse farm before you start telling us all about what you think is going on. I live 10 miles from the track. Do you?

What i think is going on is a horse just died for absolutely no fucking reason other than our amusement. Did i miss anything? no, ok then shut the fucking thing down.

[El Cid Viscoso]

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

Laminitis as a complication of a broken leg. His implants were working perfectly, but he didn't have a sound leg yet in which to fall back after developing laminitis on the others.

And yea, laminitis, depending on the severity of it, can be treated and the animals live for many years... but that is with care and treatment, which (as far as I know) does not include racing. Thoroughbreds that cannot race or be used for breeding are SOL.

I'm not here to see how many fucking angels can dance on the head of a pin. Why was his goddamned fucking leg broken in the first fucking goddamned fucking place?

Enough. Give me one good reason why a horse race should be held or I will [be really mad]. Right fucking now.

[Cubsfan]

I just read about that. I'm trying to figure out how a race horse can be in such bad shape that BOTH of its ankles during a race. Huh? That doesn't seem strange to anyone? It sounds like they just exploded or something. Are these horses all hopped up on drugs and what not? Why would it be so fragile? Was the jockey running it too hard?

I don't know anything about horse racing so I'm asking those questions in all seriousness.

[Martin Hyde]

Originally Posted by El Cid Viscoso

Enough. Give me one good reason why a horse race should be held or I will [be really mad]. Right fucking now.

It's entertainment. Period.

Sure, some animals are hurt in it--but they're animals.

Some humans get hurt in horse racing--but, they have willingly decided to take that risk, and it isn't other humans responsibility to tell them what risks are reasonable and what are not, when said risks don't threaten any other persons.

[KarlGrenze]

Originally Posted by El Cid Viscoso

I'm not here to see how many fucking angels can dance on the head of a pin. Why was his goddamned fucking leg broken in the first fucking goddamned fucking place?

Enough. Give me one good reason why a horse race should be held or I will [be really mad]. Right fucking now.

Hey, don't get mad at me, I'm trying to set something straight about your comment. Overall, I'm not a fan of horse races (or horses, for that matter).

Cubsfan, there have been cases of drugged horses, an investigation about illegal drug administration to race horses was done last year at Louisiana State University, after they got some dead race horses. I'll try to look it up.

Also, there has been some speculation as to the use of steroids in cases of laminitis in race horses (this unpublished data, just speculation on the part of my horse vet profs as to why otherwise healthy race horses succumb to laminitis, which shouldn't happen).

[Absolute]

Originally Posted by El Cid Viscoso

I'm not here to see how many fucking angels can dance on the head of a pin. Why was his goddamned fucking leg broken in the first fucking goddamned fucking place?

Enough. Give me one good reason why a horse race should be held or I will [be really mad]. Right fucking now.

What justified killing the cow that your last steak came from? That should be more than enough justification for horse racing.

[DigitalC]

Originally Posted by Absolute

What justified killing the cow that your last steak came from? That should be more than enough justification for horse racing.

How can you possibly compare substenance with entertainment, you can't possibly be that fucking stupid.

[Wee Bairn]

Originally Posted by Absolute

What justified killing the cow that your last steak came from? That should be more than enough justification for horse racing.

You know the difference in the two, but my thing with racing is the grieving owners talking about how much they loved the dead horse- just be honest and say you're crying over the lost income. If I sent my kid out once a month to play Russian Roulette to try and win a million bucks, I'd look awfully stupid and phony crying about how much I loved her after the time she blew her head off, right?

[Leaper]

Originally Posted by DigitalC

How can you possibly compare substenance with entertainment, you can't possibly be that fucking stupid.

Devil's advocate: in this world of artificial vitamins, supplements, and vegetables that have plenty of protein, there's absolutely no justification for eating meat at all other than personal selfishness of liking the taste.

(Hey, a lot of vegetarians/vegans say exactly that.)

[Absolute]

Originally Posted by DigitalC

How can you possibly compare substenance with entertainment, you can't possibly be that fucking stupid.

Meat is not necessary for sustenance - plenty of people go through life eating tofu and bean curd, or whatever the hell vegetarians eat.

We systematically slaughter cows so that we can eat them. Every cow you see? We're going to kill it and eat it, potentially after sucking milk out of it. As for horses, we make them do moderately risky things for our entertainment. We don't intentionally kill them, but as you pointed out, entertainment isn't as important as sustenance.

Seems to be about the same to me.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by Wee Bairn

You know the difference in the two, but my thing with racing is the grieving owners talking about how much they loved the dead horse- just be honest and say you're crying over the lost income. If I sent my kid out once a month to play Russian Roulette to try and win a million bucks, I'd look awfully stupid and phony crying about how much I loved her after the time she blew her head off, right?

I can understand the stance against horse racing, me, I'm generally apathetic about it.
But your roulette analogy is a bad one. The chances of blowing your head off playing russian roulette are far greater than a horse suffering life-threatening injuries due to racing. Most of them end up gnawing grass for years after their brief racing life is over, siring ponies.

[MLS]

Originally Posted by El Cid Viscoso

Barbaro was put down ultimately for humane reasons. As in they'd gathered gallons of his goo and he'd suddenly outweighed his usefulness.

Are you thinking of sperm for artificial insemination? Please note that in thoroughbred racing only natural "covers" are permitted, so that there is no doubt as to exactly which horse is the sire.

[Rilchiam]

Originally Posted by Absolute

We systematically slaughter cows so that we can eat them. Every cow you see? We're going to kill it and eat it, potentially after sucking milk out of it.

Beef comes from steer.

Milk comes from cows.

[Gorsnak]

Originally Posted by Rilchiam

Beef comes from steer.

Milk comes from cows.

Are you under the illusion that culled heifers aren't slaughtered for beef? Or that culled breeding cows aren't slaughtered for beef (generally ground)? Aside from a few cases where they end up as pet food instead, every cow you ever see will end up on a supermarket shelf.

[What the .... ?!?!]

Originally Posted by El Cid Viscoso

I'm not here to see how many fucking angels can dance on the head of a pin. Why was his goddamned fucking leg broken in the first fucking goddamned fucking place?

Enough. Give me one good reason why a horse race should be held or I will [be really mad]. Right fucking now.

Lemme guess .... you're really pissed because Hillary predicted that Eight Belles would win and you're anticipating jokes about her campaign being euthanized?

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Originally Posted by DigitalC

What i think is going on is a horse just died for absolutely no fucking reason other than our amusement. Did i miss anything? no, ok then shut the fucking thing down.

That horse would never have been alive were it not for our amusement. That is the only reason that thoroughbreds exist. Thoroughbreds are superadapted to do one thing well, and that is to run as fast as they can for a moderately short distance.

I'm not making any value judgments about horse racing, but I will say that if you shut horse racing down you've just essentially destroyed thousands of animals who aren't even valuable for food.

[KarlGrenze]

Originally Posted by Rilchiam

Beef comes from steer.

Milk comes from cows.

Good/high quality meat comes from beef cattle, either steer or heifer (but steer commands higher price).

Culled beef and dairy cattle (old cows and bulls, and those that didn't make it into breeding) end up in our meat supply too.

As some of my profs say... They go into career change at the Golden Arches.

[Rilchiam]

Well, phooey.

[NinetyWt]

Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil

Most of them end up gnawing grass for years after their brief racing life is over, siring ponies.

Not ponies, other thoroughbreds.

[El Cid Viscoso]

Originally Posted by Airman Doors, USAF

I'm not making any value judgments about horse racing, but I will say that if you shut horse racing down you've just essentially destroyed thousands of animals who aren't even valuable for food.

If we hadn't destroyed the natural environment horses would still be eating and fucking and roaming, and not running unless absolutely necessary.

Originally Posted by Absolute

What justified killing the cow that your last steak came from? That should be more than enough justification for horse racing.

I don't eat meat. Sorry.

[Soapbox Monkey]

Originally Posted by Martin Hyde

Sure, some animals are hurt in it--but they're animals.

If it's really that simple...then why is Michael Vick in jail?

I mean, they're just animals, right?

[tnetennba]

I've never understood the "well, they're animals," argument to justify cruelty and inhumane treatment of animals.

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by El Cid Viscoso

Barbaro was put down ultimately for humane reasons. As in they'd gathered gallons of his goo and he'd suddenly outweighed his usefulness.

If by "his goo" you mean sperm, no they didn't. Horses produced by artificial insemination are banned from thoroughbred racing. All such racehorses are still produced by old fashioned animal sex.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by cricetus

I've never understood the "well, they're animals," argument to justify cruelty and inhumane treatment of animals.

The idea is that, since animals are inferior to people, we don't have the same sort of ethical obligations to them that we do to people So, actions that would be considered cruel if you did them to people (eating them, testing medications on them, keeping them as pets, hunting them as sport, racing them, etc.), are ok to do to animals.

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

Laminitis as a complication of a broken leg. His implants were working perfectly, but he didn't have a sound leg yet in which to fall back after developing laminitis on the others.

And yea, laminitis, depending on the severity of it, can be treated and the animals live for many years... but that is with care and treatment, which (as far as I know) does not include racing. Thoroughbreds that cannot race or be used for breeding are SOL.

Not necessarily. I used to ride a former racing thoroughbred who wound up at a riding stable. Originally bought post-racing to breed polo ponies, after the polo stopped at the stable and the place became a riding stable he was gelded and went on to become a very good horse for training new riders. Last I saw him he was in his middle-twenties, a very respectable age for any horse.

The point being that thoroughbreds that are post-racing and not used for stud for more thoroughbreds still have uses. They're valuable horses, even if they weren't champions, and until the rise of organizations like greyhound rescues were far more likely to have a long and pleasant life post-racing than any other racing animal.

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by NinetyWt

Not ponies, other thoroughbreds.

No, thoroughbreds are often used in the siring of polo ponies. Adds speed to the mix of genes, you see.

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by Cubsfan

I just read about that. I'm trying to figure out how a race horse can be in such bad shape that BOTH of its ankles during a race. Huh? That doesn't seem strange to anyone? It sounds like they just exploded or something. Are these horses all hopped up on drugs and what not? Why would it be so fragile? Was the jockey running it too hard?

I don't know anything about horse racing so I'm asking those questions in all seriousness.

Horses break legs and ankles even when they're not running the Kentuicky Derby. I've known of horses trotting around in their paddocks that stepped in a hole, tripped, and broke a leg. It can be just as simple as a fucking accident. Maintaining the surface of a racetrack is very important for that very reason - at the speed at which racing horses run a stumble can snap a bone and hole/dip in the track, even a small one, can be deadly. After a breakdown like Barbaro's, nevermind 8 Bell's, examination of the track is routine and if there is a problem found the track can be held liable.

Although yes, TWO broken ankles at once is extremely fucked up bad and strange. That could have been to genetic defect, undetected stress fractures from training too hard, or maybe something else.

With two broken forelegs there was simply no way to save this animal. She could have been subjected to months of discomfort, pain, and distress in a futile attempt to correct the fractures, after which she would need to be put down, or they could kill her quickly at the track. It's a harsh decision, but rational person understands why she was killed sooner rather than later. With just one bum leg she might have a chance at a normal horse life. With two there was no hope.

[calm kiwi]

Originally Posted by cricetus

I've never understood the "well, they're animals," argument to justify cruelty and inhumane treatment of animals.

understood

Me either. Animals need to be treated with respect always.

Something I have never understood is our "kindness" to animals. "My" cat/dog/horse/bird/rabbit is in terrible pain! Nothing can be done! It is incredibly cruel to let my pet suffer. I must take the "humane" road and have my suffering cat gently killed.

Just say my grandmother is in severe pain, she has an incurable condition/illness. I visit her frequently. When I visit it reminds her that life used to be so much better. When my visit ends she is still in agonising pain.

Next time I visit I tell her the sad news that I had to have the cat put to sleep because it was in pain, she smiles. I leave and she is in agnonising pain.

On my next visit a horrible thing has happened, there was a horse race and a horse suffered broken legs and had to be put down. I leave and she is in terrible pain and there is no known cure.

When I leave the hospital my face is streaming with tears and I probably shouldn't be driving but I am. I hit a dog who wanders onto the street. It's pelvis is crushed, there may be internal injuries also. I take the dog to the vet. The dog is put out of it's misery (and mine?).

I tell my grandmother the wretched story on my next visit. She smiles...or was it a wince? I leave her in agnonising pain.

Yes that was bullshit!

While I agree it is not OK to let pets suffer, everytime I hear about a pet or a "valuable" animal put down so it doesn't suffer it makes me cringe. What about the grandmother! Why is it ok to let our horse/dog/cat end it's life peacefully, painlessly but not our grandmother? Why do we want to care right to the last minute for our cat/dog while we still have bits of cow/pig/chicken/lamb between our teeth?

I absolutely do not want animals to suffer, not the ones I love nor the ones I eat! But more importantly I want to see people afforded the same 'HUMANITY' that is offered to dogs, cats and horses. Surely euthanasia for people is something we need to accept.

Is there a time when we will be able to accept that because we can be humane to dogs and cats that we should absolutely offer the same kindness to people?

[El Cid Viscoso]

Originally Posted by Broomstick

If by "his goo" you mean sperm, no they didn't. Horses produced by artificial insemination are banned from thoroughbred racing. All such racehorses are still produced by old fashioned animal sex.

Did I say anything about making another thoroughbred from a straw of Barbaro? Yeah, you and MLS are right about insemination re the rules of the dumbass jockey club, but so what -- Barbaro's still a significant member of the bloodline. While the owners claim they kept none of his sperm, I can't imagine why they wouldn't have. Just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Broomstick

Horses break legs and ankles even when they're not running the Kentuicky Derby. I've known of horses trotting around in their paddocks that stepped in a hole, tripped, and broke a leg.

To me that's every bit as irresponsible as whipping an animal to make it run faster. People with holey pastures don't deserve to keep a horse.

[LurkMeister]

And how do you suggest that people who own pastures keep their pastures free of holes? Do you think the holes appear spontaneously? They are dug by burrowing animals, and the only way to stop them from doing so is to remove them from the pasture. Of course, killing them would be wrong, so I suppose the only option is to litter the pasture with live traps (and hope the horses don't trip over them) and release the burrowers someplace else, where presumably there are no horses to step in their holes.

[El Cid Viscoso]

Originally Posted by LurkMeister

And how do you suggest that people who own pastures keep their pastures free of holes?

You don't need me to teach you how to use a shovel, do you?

They are dug by burrowing animals, and the only way to stop them from doing so is to remove them from the pasture. Of course, killing them would be wrong, so I suppose the only option is to litter the pasture with live traps (and hope the horses don't trip over them) and release the burrowers someplace else, where presumably there are no horses to step in their holes.

Now you're going to lecture me on prairie dogs? I live in a fricking desert.

There's a rule around here: "All pastures will be walked weekly." It's really not that tough.

[KarlGrenze]

Originally Posted by Broomstick

The point being that thoroughbreds that are post-racing and not used for stud for more thoroughbreds still have uses. They're valuable horses, even if they weren't champions, and until the rise of organizations like greyhound rescues were far more likely to have a long and pleasant life post-racing than any other racing animal.

You're right, many post-racing horses (particularly if they have been good racers) can lead good lives.

Not all of them do, and for many owners, keeping a laminitic horse (depending on the severity) that cannot ride and is not useful as a breeder animal is a pain. So the animal ends up euthanized if it is unable to fill either one of those career paths.

And even in your case, even if you were able to ride the horse, it was not as intense as a race, and it got care to prevent laminitis development.