Barn Swallow help, please.

[MadPansy64]

Making them relocate away from my front porch, to be precise.

While I like birds, I could do without the hysterical swooping and hair pulling. GiantFreakin Marine doesn't find it at all charming.

I don't want to kill the babies, so I am *really* hoping that I can just knock down the nest after they fly, and before batch #2 is laid. Any chance of that? There is a big old barn not 100 yards away, as well as other outbuildings. They won't be homeless, if they just look around a bit.

I'm reasonably sure hatching began today -- quiet yesterday, cheeping at any movement began this morning. How long before they fly the nest? How many nests to swallows lay each summer?

I did google, but most of the sites are concerned with attracting swallows, rather than time frames for evictions.

[Mangetout]

They probably won't have time to build or find a new nest in time for a second brood (if there is one coming), if you destroy the existing one at the right moment - I'm not saying you should hold off until the second brood has flown, only trying to realistically examine the situation.

[MadPansy64]

Well, crap. If they do have more than one brood, that is. We're in northern North Dakota, so I have to assume breeding season is relatively short. I do have all winter to find ways of avoiding the issue next spring, so that's something. Not much, but something.

Damn my weak google-fu. I *know* what they look like, I do NOT want to attract them, I am already sad about the lack of big old barns, so why can't I find anything about how damn long it takes for the babies to leave home, and whether Mommy and Daddy Swallow will want to use the nest again this year?

I should be more patient, but between dive-bombing swallows by the front door and a territorial pheasant at the back, I'm getting just a bit tired of horny birds .

[Rhubarb]

I can loan you some of my Google-fu. From here;

Barn Swallows nest monogamously in small colonies, usually raising two broods. As their common name suggests, Barn Swallows nest on a variety of anthropogenic structures including barns, buildings, under bridges, and culverts but also caves, and rocky ledges. The nest consists of mud pellets reinforced with grass and lined with feathers and soft plant material. Barn Swallows place nests on ledges or plaster them to walls. Females incubate 4-6 brown-spotted white eggs for 13-17 days with some assistance from males. Altricial young remain in the nest 18-23 days while being fed by both sexes.

First hit, search string "barn swallow vital statistics"

[Yllaria]

For federally funded projects, you have to knock the nests down within three days after they're built or it's considered to be a 'take' according to NEPA. Once the nest it built, you're stuck until they stop using them. That means that if they brood twice, the project is on hold until they're finished.

Not sure what rules apply to residences. Could be completely different. If you're looking for information, try US Fish and Wildlife or your local state agency.

For next year, knocking them down with the hose within three days of them being built should be completely legal.

[Mangetout]

I couldn't find any information on their behaviour in your locality, but the species has been observed to raise second broods in some places (West Virginia was often mentioned), not others (such as California) - neither of these locations is particularly helpful, I expect.

The young fledge between 17 and 24 days old according to this site:
http://www.extension.org/pages/Swallows

-I always find this incredible - just a few weeks from being tiny naked pink chicks to becoming adolescent birds capable of flight. It's a testament to the nutritional value of insects, if nothing else.

[MadPansy64]

Originally Posted by Rhubarb

First hit, search string "barn swallow vital statistics"

Perfect. Thank you. I'm a google-dumbass, so thank you very much for being sweet and not pointing that out.

Yllaria Bummer. Looks like we'll be using the back door, or be attacked until <counts on fingers> early September. Hmmm. Anyone know how to make nice-nice with a territorial male pheasant so I can get in the back yard?

Wait. September? That's too long -- it should be cold and maybe even snowy here by then. Except it frosted last week, which obviously didn't bother the parents or eggs, so first probably won't bother the young'uns too badly either, so never mind. Which brings me back to making friends with the evil pheasant in the back yard.

I swear, if that moose gets any closer, I'm moving back to Montana where the wildlife all know to stay offa my lawn!

[Duck Duck Goose]

Originally Posted by MadPansy64

Looks like we'll be using the back door, or be attacked until <counts on fingers> early September.

Well, you're not required to allow them to raise two broods. The young fledge in 24 days, you said they started hatching today, so call it 28 days from today they'll be fledged, call it July 11. So you only have to observe the nest closely at least once a day for the next month, looking for the little heads raised up above the nest edge being fed by the parents, and the day you *don't* see those little heads (a la this picture here), get in there with a garden rake or the hose and knock the nest down. That'll be your only window of opportunity, I'm thinkin'.

[Pullet]

Originally Posted by MadPansy64

Yllaria Bummer. Looks like we'll be using the back door, or be attacked until <counts on fingers> early September. Hmmm. Anyone know how to make nice-nice with a territorial male pheasant so I can get in the back yard?

Wait. September? That's too long -- it should be cold and maybe even snowy here by then. Except it frosted last week, which obviously didn't bother the parents or eggs, so first probably won't bother the young'uns too badly either, so never mind. Which brings me back to making friends with the evil pheasant in the back yard.

The pheasant you can shoot, with the right permit during the right time of year. Not so much with the barn swallow.

[Duck Duck Goose]

...except that pheasant season in North Dakota doesn't start until October 11. Unless she can get some kid to shoot it October 4 when Youth season starts.

But she doesn't have to resort to shooting it. According to this, the overly aggressive behavior should stop once breeding season is over. And according to this, the breeding season is April-June for NoDak.

So this isn't behavior that's gonna continue all summer and into the fall. Until then, I'd take a broom out there with me and whack it when it came at me. There's no reason you can't defend yourself from a chicken.

[MadPansy64]

Originally Posted by Duck Duck Goose

...except that pheasant season in North Dakota doesn't start until October 11. <snip> And according to this, the breeding season is April-June for NoDak.

So this isn't behavior that's gonna continue all summer and into the fall. Until then, I'd take a broom out there with me and whack it when it came at me. There's no reason you can't defend yourself from a chicken.

Yes, I loves me a broom! They're not bad for defending against geese, either.

The pheasant and I have compromised. When he struts around eating bugs, rather than attacking me, I don't try to smack him with the broom, shovel, or rake I'm holding, nor do I kick him.

Baby swallows are loud!

[Mangetout]

If you laid a trail of corn kernels from the yard into the kitchen and then into the oven, would that count as hunting, if the pheasant chose to follow them?

[Duck Duck Goose]

Originally Posted by MadPansy64

Baby swallows are loud!

If it helps, try to remember that Mommy and Daddy Swallow are catching thousands and thousands of mosquitos every day to feed those loudmouths. That yammering is what prompts Mom and Dad to go sweep your yard's airspace for the umpteenth time in an hour.

[MadPansy64]

Originally Posted by Duck Duck Goose

If it helps, try to remember that Mommy and Daddy Swallow are catching thousands and thousands of mosquitos every day to feed those loudmouths. That yammering is what prompts Mom and Dad to go sweep your yard's airspace for the umpteenth time in an hour.

I don't mind the noise, it's the hair pulling that bothers me.

Between the screaming chicks and the swooping parents, my sweet but stupid cat is staying out from underfoot for the first time in weeks. I appreciate their birdy efforts.

[MadPansy64]

Originally Posted by Mangetout

If you laid a trail of corn kernels from the yard into the kitchen and then into the oven, would that count as hunting, if the pheasant chose to follow them?

Suicidal Pheasant under Glass would be lovely for dinner.

[MadPansy64]

Reviving to update, with (bad) pictures.

My front porch is bird-free again. They flew away Friday (August 1, 2008) morning. I will remove the nest immediately before the house is repainted (probably Labor Day weekend), since the parent swallows don't seem to have any further interest in the now empty nest.

(BTW some of the picture dates are iffy. New camera, I'm a dumbass, etc etc)

[Green Cymbeline]

Originally Posted by MadPansy64

Reviving to update, with (bad) pictures.

Awwwww, they are so adorable!!! I don't think I have ever seen a barn swallow IRL and I didn't realize how cute they are. Good for you! And thanks for the photos.

[MadPansy64]

Originally Posted by nyctea scandiaca

Awwwww, they are so adorable!!! I don't think I have ever seen a barn swallow IRL and I didn't realize how cute they are. Good for you! And thanks for the photos.

I didn't know they'd be cute, either! The first set of hatchlings . . . disappeared before they got cute, but the four later babies charmed me from the first day they popped their big mouths over the edge of the nest.

[Lavender Falcon]

Thanks for posting these--I love them!

I have chimney swifts that nest in my chimney every year, but I can't see them, unlike your swallow babies. I did find a chimney swift cam this year, though, so I now have some idea of what goes on with their nests.

[MadPansy64]

Maybe this thread should be relocated to the Pit.

Those fucking birds have laid another batch of damn eggs, and are, once again, freaking right the fuck out if I have the audacity to walk within 50 yards of their damn precious nest -- which just happens to be on my front porch.

Next year, I'm gonna make it a mission to destroy their little building projects twice a fucking day until the hair-pulling, shitty little bastards fly away forever.

Please, keep your fingers crossed that winter comes late to North Dakota this year, because I don't want to even contemplate how to rescue the little poopers from a North Dakota winter.

[Duck Duck Goose]

Egad. I think you've done enough, hon, paid some dues. I hereby give you official permission to NOT rescue them. Too bad you evidently missed the window of opportunity to get in there with the garden rake once the first batch had fledged, but how could you know that they'd elect to raise another batch this late in the year? File for future reference, I guess.

Anyway, no, don't even consider rescuing this batch. Think of it as Darwinian selection in action: birds shouldn't be raising second broods this late in the year in NoDak, so by not rescuing their younguns, you'd actually be doing the barn swallow gene pool a huge favor.

Just let it ride. They pays their money and they takes their chances, same's the rest of us.

[MadPansy64]

Oh, I stared at the old nest for a full week. They didn't return, so I got a hoe and knocked the damn thing down last week. Yesterday, while washing windows, I saw the NEW nest, and eggs, in the slightly more hidden corner of the porch.

Little fuckers are going to be all pitiful and helpless and cold and alone. Since I'm a certified Grade-A soft hearted sucker, I *will* try to save them. I won't succeed, but I'll try, and I'll bawl like a baby when they die.

Fuck. Mother Nature is a heartless bitch. I know, I know . . . but I'm an hopeless idiot.

[Duck Duck Goose]

They built a new nest? At the end of August? Geez, that's really messed-up. "What were they thinking?" etc.

So if it took six weeks from start to finish for the first batch, you're looking at the middle of October for this one? I dunno, they might make it.

Heartwarming "Awwwww..." story here to help you pass the time. "Sense of quiet wonder", uh huh.

[FarmerChick]

Originally Posted by MadPansy64

Maybe this thread should be relocated to the Pit.

Those fucking birds have laid another batch of damn eggs, and are, once again, freaking right the fuck out if I have the audacity to walk within 50 yards of their damn precious nest -- which just happens to be on my front porch.

Next year, I'm gonna make it a mission to destroy their little building projects twice a fucking day until the hair-pulling, shitty little bastards fly away forever.

Please, keep your fingers crossed that winter comes late to North Dakota this year, because I don't want to even contemplate how to rescue the little poopers from a North Dakota winter.

I'm sorry MadPansy, but you made me laugh do hard I scared my dog!
I have barn swallows in my garage/shop/smoking room. They are saucy little bastards, but I love them for their amazing mosquito eating abilities.

My only advise is play loud music, and wear a hat! I love the country.

[freckafree]

You can repel them with yeast. A friend of mine had problems with the swallows in his horse barn trying to build nests in the horses' manes. His vet told him to shampoo their manes with brewer's yeast. He did, and the swallows stopped bothering the horses. It works because

SPOILER:

yeast is yeast and nest is nest, and never the mane shall tweet.

D&R

[tygerbryght]

Originally Posted by freckafree

You can repel them with yeast. A friend of mine had problems with the swallows in his horse barn trying to build nests in the horses' manes. His vet told him to shampoo their manes with brewer's yeast. He did, and the swallows stopped bothering the horses. It works because

<delete the amazing groaner>

D&R

Loved it ... even before the marvelous rephrasing. And then ... well, let's say I had a degraded upbringing. My father loved puns, the smellier, the better. His eyes would dance as he was about to make one.

Y'know, that's fascinating. Brewer's yeast has a mild deterrent effect on fleas. Before the really good, reasonably safe anti-flea preparations came along, a lot of dog breeders/exhibitors (me among them) useta give their dogs brewer's yeast tablets (or sprinkle the loose stuff on their food) for that purpose.

Based on the rules WRT bird habitat, nests, etc., as quoted in this thread, I don't see why MadPansy64 couldn't put brewer's yeast all around the nest - or even in it. Think of it as the humane solution. After all, there aren't going to be any flying insects for the new ones to catch, even if they survive to fledging! How could she rear them? What could she feed them? How would they survive the winter? The parents will be migrating, won't they? Wikipedia says they (Hirundo rustica erythrogaster) are "strongly migratory", and winter in the Caribbean and South America.

I didn't think birds - other than vultures, buzzards and others on Ma Nature's cleanup crew - had that much of a sense of smell. Anybody reading this who knows something about avian senses/physiology, and willing to comment?

[MadPansy64]

FarmerChick I have a hat. It's easier to whine, and then use the back door than to remember where I put it.

freckafree That was just awful! I love it!

tygerbryght I don't have a plan, since I'm still in the bitch, whine and sulk stage about the new nest.

We're out in the country, where there are always bugs. Horses, cows and pigs shit year round, and even on the very coldest days there will be a sluggish fly or 2 in the barn. There are also a couple of pet stores in town where I could get clean mealworms and crickets, if I had to. I can't imagine my cats (or my husband, for that matter) dealing well with having barn swallows in the house for even a moment.

At my old house (in Montana) there was a female robin who wouldn't leave until her last batch of babies were big enough to fly south -- in mid-December.

I am afraid that, unlike robins, swallows won't hang around to finish raising the chicks, and then the poor damn things will die right in front of my eyes. Don't swallows have an inflexible timetable for migration? Or only the swallows of Capistrano?

Duck Duck Goose Thanks for the link, that was cute. I must now name them, of course.

Sheesh. I have a stupid cat inside, and stupid birds out.

[rowrrbazzle]

Originally Posted by freckafree

You can repel them with yeast. A friend of mine had problems with the swallows in his horse barn trying to build nests in the horses' manes. His vet told him to shampoo their manes with brewer's yeast. He did, and the swallows stopped bothering the horses. It works because

SPOILER:

yeast is yeast and nest is nest, and never the mane shall tweet.

D&R

Are you a My Word! fan, perchance?

[Duck Duck Goose]

Well, if you feel absolutely impelled to raise them baby birds, you needn't rummage through the manure pile looking for bugs--there are any number of web pages devoted to raising orphaned baby birds (the word "altricial" in the search string helps to eliminate all the hand-raising parrot websites).

Sample.
http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/NABB/v0...0157-p0160.pdf
http://www.2ndchance.info/insecteater.htm

To get a better idea of exactly when you can expect your swallows to up stick and start heading south, you can check with any of these people here. They'll be able to tell you to the week, I'd bet.
http://www.audubon.org/chapter/index.php?state=ND

[freckafree]

Originally Posted by rowrrbazzle

Are you a My Word! fan, perchance?

I used to be, but our public radio station doesn't carry it. Hmmmmmm. I wonder if there are podcasts of the show?

[MadPansy64]

Originally Posted by MadPansy64

Duck Duck Goose Thanks for the link, that was cute. I must now name them, of course.

The male is now called Geraldo. He "talks" a lot, and spends a great deal of time preening.

Any ideas for the female?

[Harmonious Discord]

The only thing that works is persistence in removing the nests as fast as they put them up. A single protrusion such as a nail is enough for them to start a nest.

[samclem]

Great thread, but not really GQ at this point. Let the merriment continue.

samclem GQ moderator

[Duck Duck Goose]

Originally Posted by MadPansy64

Any ideas for the female?

Britney, as in Spears, because just when you think her 15 minutes are up, here she comes around again.

[MadPansy64]

Originally Posted by Duck Duck Goose

Britney, as in Spears, because just when you think her 15 minutes are up, here she comes around again.

Bwahaha! Perfect!

Geraldo and Britney they shall be!

[TroubleAgain]

They may be a nuisance, but damn, they're cute!

[rowrrbazzle]

Originally Posted by freckafree

I used to be, but our public radio station doesn't carry it. Hmmmmmm. I wonder if there are podcasts of the show?

No podcasts, but you can listen to webcasts on many stations. http://www.publicradiofan.com/cgibin...?programid=934

The show with your pun came around on Radio Australia last month. Oh, and that's one of my favorite puns.

[drpepper]

Just chiming in to say that the user name couple of 'MadPansy64' and 'GiantFreakin Marine' sound like they'd be a blast at parties.

[MadPansy64]

Originally Posted by drpepper

Just chiming in to say that the user name couple of 'MadPansy64' and 'GiantFreakin Marine' sound like they'd be a blast at parties.

Nah, we're both the shy retiring type.

<snork> <Bwahaha><coughcough>

Damn, I almost kept a straight face while typing that.

[DMark]

Originally Posted by drpepper

Just chiming in to say that the user name couple of 'MadPansy64' and 'GiantFreakin Marine' sound like they'd be a blast at parties.

Let's just say there is a reason they had to leave Las Vegas in a hurry...something about bird abuse and fowl language I believe...but we miss them terribly here.

Perhaps they will stop by Las Vegas again when they escort their swallows to Capistrano.

[MadPansy64]

Well, shit. I have no idea when those sneaky stupid little fuckers actually built the new nest, but as of 5:30 pm CST today, there are 2 or 3 naked pink baby swallows who huddle down instead of cheeping at my big ol’ head peering in at them.
Dammit.

Pictures will follow, as soon as I find the usb cable. Dammit.

[Typo]

Oh, lordy. I feel for you, MP. (North Central ND here.) I'm glad they just stick to our outbuildings.

I have been known to carry a tennis racket with me. Yes, they get THAT aggressive. Our poor cats will skulk across the yard while getting divebombed.

Persistence in knocking the nests down is good. You can also try hanging some pie tins or aluminum cans from strings from the porch roof. Gaudy as heck, but might make them go look for other nesting places.

One of my neighbors said they put a ladder for the cat under each new nest on their porch. It took a while, but they did learn eventually. (YMMV.)

[MadPansy64]

Originally Posted by Endiqua

Oh, lordy. I feel for you, MP. (North Central ND here.) I'm glad they just stick to our outbuildings.

Any idea when the bastards fly south? I left a message (thanks, DDG) at the ND Audubon number, but haven't heard back yet.

An elderly neighbor said painting the porch "ceiling" sky blue will bother them enough they won't build next year. I've got sky-ish blue paint, and I'm really hoping that particular Old Wife is telling me a true tale.

Next year, starting in early April, I swear I *will* patrol all corners of the porch twice a day, and will destroy all building attempts immediately. There is a barn, a huge old shed (think 4-car, two story garage type "shed"), and a structurally-sound but abandoned (mosquito infested, unsafe steps) gazebo within a few hundred yards. Why the hell do they insist on the front porch?

Oh, dammit, let's be honest. If the blue fucking paint doesn't work, I'll be sneaking out the back door again next June, I will freak out again next August when the second nest is laid again, and I will whine to all of you when the poor babies are abandoned and die, again.

[MadPansy64]

Reviving with new pictures of the second nest, and the surviving baby.

If the weather stays mild for another two weeks, the little family may survive to fly south. Most of the other barn swallows have left the area -- only the Porch Family, the Big Barn Family, and the Tool Shed Family remain. Apparently, some North Dakota Barn Swallows have a more flexible migration date than the Swallows of Capistrano.

The adults and adolescents of each family huddle together on the edge of the nests at night after dark, and defend their territory, but don't appear to help the parents feed the nestlings.

[Tamerlane]

Originally Posted by Endiqua

I have been known to carry a tennis racket with me. Yes, they get THAT aggressive. Our poor cats will skulk across the yard while getting divebombed.

You know, this is interesting. I don't doubt you at all - lord knows I've had my head whacked innumerable times in San Francisco by nesting Brewer's Blackbirds annoyed that I'm walking down the street within 100 yards of their nest. But the Barn Swallows that nest at my job seem remarkably mellow. Might be where I encounter them I guess ( they nest below me, as I usually get near them walking across a catwalk ). But generally I'll get within ten feet of their nests and they'll just give me a careful eye and otherwise ignore me. Habituation, perhaps - we've had nesting swallows for years and every year's brood has grown up seeing us strolling on by ( we've never had more than a couple pairs nesting at any given moment ).

Last season we had a pair of ravens nest on a mess of pipes in a truck bay, maybe 18 feet off the ground. They successfully raised one youngster and all three went from very wary to very habituated quite quickly. But then ravens are pretty bright and my co-worker fed them peanuts.

[MadPansy64]

Oh, yeah, they can get very aggressive. I suspect it is an individual trait, rather than species wide. The Tool Shed family is calmer than the Porch family, and the Big Barn family is totally, like, copacetic, ya know, dude? The Big Barn and Porch families both have people in their space several times a day, but the Tool shed family sees a human maybe once a week. Tool Shed & Big Barn Families both have the nests very high on a wall, but then again, I put 2 Big Barn babies back in the nest without getting attacked or even fluttered at. Dragging the big ladder out is a PITA, but they're so CUTE . . . and I'm a world class sucker.

Porch Family's sole surviving baby decided to try out his/her wings today. Those wings are just good enough to keep out of my reach, but not quite good enough to make it back up to the nest. Dammit. Britney & Geraldo appear to be trying to get him/her to fly back up there on his own, but so far, he/she seems to have some steering issues.

While I was fussing, wondering out loud if the fish net would hurt the baby, and yaddayadda, when Hubby snarled "What's your real name?" (I just blinked at him, having no idea where he was going with this) "It's Dawna, NOT Darwin!" Point taken. Baby Swallow will either be fine, or not, and there isn't a damn thing I can do about it.

Right?