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#1
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Why does Africa suffer?
Why is it that most African countries below the Sahara are in such a terrible state? By almost every yardstick most of them are suffering. In terms of politics, economics and human rights, they are below the standards that we would find acceptable. Is it to do with the climate? Is it to do with the consequences of colonial rule? Is it because of tribal cultures? I've never understood.
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#2
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I would say it is a combination of B and C. It is a consequence of initial tribal rule and of colonial rule. However, my understanding is limited as I do not know the state of affairs in Africa Prior to colonial rule. Except for Egypt...I don't know it's history prior to the formation of countries.
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#3
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It is a consequence of colonial rule only insomuch as colonial rule produced horrible dictators that are the ones who are responsible for the devastation you see in much of sub-Saharan Africa today. Look at Zimbabwe. It is in a horrible situation today. It certainly isn't because the British colonized the place. The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of Robert Mugabe and his anti-freedom activities. Any country in sub-Saharan Africa suffering from a similar fate has a current or former leader who resembles Mugabe. Look at those thugs if you are looking to assign blame.
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#4
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Personally, I blame Whitey...
...but seriously.... It's to do with colonialism, tribalism, religion, sexism, and geography. Let's not underestimate that latter bit, either - N-S axis, big deserts and jungles, some pretty shitty natural pests like Malaria and Tsetse Fly, mostly worn-out soils because of being old stable cratons (cf Australia), astride the equator & tropics:all that doesn't help. I think colonialism, while still having an effect today, was just the cherry on top. Africa and its displaced twin South America (Which is not that much removed from the banana republis stereotypes of the 70s) were always destined to be the poor relations of the continent family. As for tribalism and general ignorance - fuck they're still going on honest-to-god witchhunts in Kenya. What the fuck can you do for people like that? |
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#5
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Accident of history is my WAG. Why were there Dark Ages in Europe? Why does the United States seem like it's heading for a long period of ignorance and backwardness?
In Africa's case? Never underestimate the deleterious effects of colonialism and fruitless internecine tribal warfare. |
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#6
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Don't forget almost no navigable rivers. Seems quaint but both Europe and the Eastern US have an excellent network of rivers.
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#7
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I don't think there are any easy or straightforward answers. Nonetheless, I do think colonialism is given too much weight. If colonialism were an overwhelming factor, or a factor on its own, South Africa, Namibia and Botswana would be in tatters.
Admittedly Botswana was never a colony, but it was a British protectorate. Last edited by Mellivora capensis; 06-27-2008 at 09:27 AM. |
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#8
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Far too many brutal, kleptocratic leaders. Little experience in sustained democratic practice. Religious, tribal and ethnic tensions. Illogically-drawn national boundaries. Chronic poverty. A terrible healthcare system. Widespread illiteracy. Environmental degradation. And so on.
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#9
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#11
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#12
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Corrupt leadership in who's interest it is to keep their population uneducated, poor and at odds with others.
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#13
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#14
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Colonialism just took different forms and was done by different people at different times in different circumstances. It's a catch-all, not a technical term. And in Africa the europeans 'left', leaving behind arbitrary borders that paid no attention to tribal boundaries thus leaving a legacy of tribal rivalry that dominates politics everywhere from Zimbabwe to Nigeria. In South America we never left - we just supplanted the native survivors and founded new, Pope ordained nations. |
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#15
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#16
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I would say it is because Sub-Saharan Africa never abandoned tribalism. To be an effective nation-state, you have to put aside differneces. instead, Africa has been riven by civil wars and tribal conflicts. It seems to have no end. take Nigeria-oil rich, but ethnically divided (north=muslim, south=christian). Billions of $ coming in from oil, with NO discernable improvement. Instead, the educated people leave for the US or Europe. Staggering levels of corruption, and a stifling beaurocracy.
Not a good foundation for a nation. It is a bad state and seems to be getting worse. |
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#17
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And the S American question isn't raised. It's the difference between a family moving into a house they've evicted the owners from (South America) and moving in and trashing a house and then moving out while obliging two or more hostile gangs to live under the same vacated roof (Africa). |
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#18
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#19
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Last edited by Renob; 06-27-2008 at 11:05 AM. |
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#20
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#21
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Most people reject this idea (at least publicly) because it's so offensive. But still, it would seem to fit the facts pretty well. |
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#22
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How does it "fit the facts"? - what's intelligence got to do with poverty, or human rights?
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#23
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People are extrapolating a heck of a lot from what is, let's be honest, a rather short period of human history. Africa's a relative shithole NOW, but you can pick any number of points in history when Europe was even worse, when China was a wreck, so on and so forth. Why is the political and economic situation of 2008 indicative of relative intelligence, but not of 908? or 1200 BC? Surely our intelligence doesn't change that quickly? |
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#24
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How much of Africa was actually colonized? By that I mean a significant part of the population coming from elsewhere (ie, Europe)? Obviously South Africa fits that bill, but wasn't most of sub-S Africa ruled by a small elite governing class, mostly civil servant types, with not a lot of farmers/tradesmen/etc coming in to settle?
Waves and waves of immigrants came to North and South America, and in what is now the US most of the native population was destroyed. Although many of the natives in parts settled by Spain were killed (or died of diseases) many countries south of the US maintain a very large native or mixed population today. I can't see a parallel with this over much of Africa. Perhaps in some of the eastern part there was a similar process driven by the Arabs...? Last edited by John Mace; 06-27-2008 at 03:34 PM. |
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#25
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#26
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And by the way, I do think that intelligence can change relatively quickly. For one thing, improved nutrition could have a pretty big impact in a generation or two. Microevolution would obviously be slower, but it may very well have a noticeable impact over 50 generations. Such a process has been hypothesized for Ashkenazi Jews. |
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#27
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Africa got dealt a pretty tough hand. So many ways to die, so people don't have much time or energy for anything beyond survival. |
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#28
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http://homepage.mac.com/harpend/.Pub...jbiosocsci.pdf Last edited by brazil84; 06-27-2008 at 05:21 PM. |
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#29
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Asian colonialism resulted in established nations being conquered and then administered by foreign powers, leaving the cultures generally intact. South American colonialism resulted in massive numbers of deaths among the local population, pretty much wiping out the original cultures that were then re-established as a new fusion of European and Indian populations relying on established cultures (at least for political and economic structures) imported from Europe. African colonialism occurred in separate waves, with each having a dfferent effect on the region colonized. Northern Africa resembled Asian colonization. Southern African colonization resembled that in South America. Central African colonization was a separate thing altogether, where old cultures were destroyed (and rival societies arbitrarily merged), and no real new culture was permitted to develop. On top of that, millions of Africans were ripped from their homes and lives and simply shipped away. In each case, those countries which suffered the least cultural disruption have done best, those that have had new cultures imposed on them have survived, but not easily, and those cultures that have been seriously disrupted or destroyed have suffered the worst. Given that people who attempt to measure intelligence cannot even agree on the best way to do that (or even how best to define intelligence), it seems rather pointless to try to assign the failures of different societies to their respective (and never adequately defined or measured) intelligence when there is a pretty clear correlation between societal disruption and later success. |
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#30
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It's an interesting hypothesis, but one I find more than a little dubious myself. For one thing teasing out ( or even defining ) innate biological intelligence as distinct from cultural factors is so difficult as to verge on the impossible. But YMMV. Quote:
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#31
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__________________
There's an Initiation Ceremony. It involves a Squid and a Goat. You're gonna be good friends with that Goat. The Squid will not exactly be a stranger, either. ~~Me, on the SDMB Initiation |
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#32
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#33
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#34
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#35
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#36
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African imperialism was a Hobbesian phenomena: nasty, brutish and short. |
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#37
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I'll never understand why people bring up the fact that Europe was backwards hundreds and hundreds of years ago in these kind of arguments. That was then, this is now. The point is that Africa is fucked up NOW. We have modern technology and medicine and communications and everything NOW, and the fact that Europe had the Dark Ages doesn't make any difference.
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#38
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I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, and Steel". So I did.
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#39
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Last edited by Tamerlane; 06-27-2008 at 10:03 PM. |
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#40
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Do the current inhabitants speak the same languages and practice the same religions as the inhabitants of the same regions in 1490? Are the traditions regarding marriage, inheritance, child rearing, and other familial phenomena more similar or more dissimilar to the practices in 1490? Do laws and economics follow traditions current in 1490 (with appropriate allowances for general development and evolution), or is there a hodge-podge of conflicting situations in which a legal system has one set of rules on the books while the population in its day-to-day existence carries out acts of "justice" in some different manner? Conversely, how would one objectively assess intelligence? Quote:
If you don't decide to pursue intelligence as a cause, then the same exaples of superiority and inferiority still follow the same patterns in history. Pointing out that Europeans had a period in which they were every bit as backward as any other group in the world is simply a way of pointing out that any claims for innate superiority seriously stumble on the facts of history. = = = Similar situations can be observed in comparisons of political development between Europe and Western Asia. It may be comforting to some to believe that Europeans are in some way superior to Western Asians, inasmuch as the Europeans have (relatively) stable democracies rather than clans and tribes and strong man dictators. However, that ignores the fact that between the Magna Carta and the 2006 election, the English speaking peoples fought numous civil wars in which the results of "elections" (at one level or another) were challenged at the points of halberds and the mouths of muskets before we finally got in the habit of accepting election results without going to war to change them. (Heck, Europe had more autocracies than democracies at the time the the Nazis took power in Germany and many of the elections that followed the political reorganization following 1918 were swept away in civil wars.) Societies that have not yet gone through the same labor pains have not yet given birth to democratic traditions. This does not mean that they are innately inferior, only that they are on a different milestone on the route from autocracy to democracy. |
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#41
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Excellent post, tomndebb.
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#42
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Throughout most of history, communication was very slow, and ideas spread as slow as pine sap in the winter. It makes sense that across the world, one culture might be quite advanced and another very primitive. But nowadays there's an unprecedented level of communication. Ideas travel in mere seconds nowadays. Like ideas about HIV and how to spread it, for instance (hint - fucking a virgin isn't the solution.) It seems like Africa logically should not be so far beneath the standards of the West, with modern communications technology.
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#43
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#44
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#45
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Last edited by brazil84; 06-28-2008 at 03:41 AM. |
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#46
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#47
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Let me give this is a shot.
Sub-Saharan Africa generally lacks the flora and fauna that is conducive to building civilization (grains and beasts and burdens that can be domesticated with ease), more or less explaining their relative lack of technological development. Jared Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel does a great job of explaining this in a logical, well-researched fashion. So contact with the expansionist Europeans led to colonization and afterwards when the Europeans left, they kind of sliced up Africa in a careless, haphazard way, without too much consideration for tribal antagonism that is still strong today. So what we are left with is a set of nations without any sense of nationhood, with tribal affiliations that are much stronger than any feeling of national pride. So when a leader from one tribe strong-arms his way into power, he of course oppresses members of the rival tribe, attempt genocide, etc etc. Then of course those that are most needed to develop these countries (the wealthy and educated) leave as soon as they can because they also lacking any sense of nationhood. And seeing the state of that region, who can blame them? Also, the developed world is wary of investing in those unstable markets (and foreign investment is a must for development of these sorts of nations), though resource hungry China seems to be up for the challenge these days. This how I've come to understand it in extremely simplistic and possibly inaccurate terms. |
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#48
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By more than dugouts. |
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#49
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#50
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Why couldn't humans tame zebras? |
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