Funding 3rd level education

[Laudenum]

This is a massive topic, so I expect that this may wander a bit.

In Ireland, we have the free fees scheme, so you pay a regestration fee (close to a grand) a year, and thats all you pay to go to college.
A government Minister dropped a comment about bringing fees back, and all hell has broken loose, with various people saying that they cannot afford 4000-6000 a year, and that this would stop people going to college (statistics dispute this buts thats another thread).

Other funding options being discussed include copying the Australian system (this was the Progressive Democrats idea), and providing interest-free loans that people could pay back when they were earning more money. Getting more corperate funding into universities was also suggested.

Is there an ideal way of funding universities? What do you think is the ideal way? etc.

[Phlosphr]

Here in the states we have federal stafford loans and pell grants that work similar to having an interest free loan until you finish school and after the 6 month grace period. This helps people who cannot afford college and who wish to get an education and who fully intend on paying it back... I think the system works really well. However, with the price of university going up, up, up it's not uncommon to see a $120,000 bill at the end of your Bachelors.

I paid for my bachelors and got loans for grad school. this was in the early 90's

[threemae]

Originally Posted by Laudenum

Is there an ideal way of funding universities? What do you think is the ideal way? etc.

I don't think the current standard European system for pricing college is effective.

From my experience with Welsh and British exchange students from mid to lower level "undergrad" or "3rd level" institutions in the UK, the attitude is largely that such education is largely a three-four year long vacation in institutions lacking in rigor or purpose. It's a lot of wasted financial resources on the part of the state and time on the part of the students that could be studying harder or doing something else entirely in the work force or society.

http://www.economist.com/world/brita..._id=E1_NPVNJPN

I think it sends too many people to college without a clear idea of what they intend to study for no real purpose. I believe that undergraduate education is highly overrated for "teaching you how to think" skills compared with actual work experience. Granted, there is certainly an assortment effect where employers look for college grads because people that went to college did well on standardized tests, etc., but I feel a more efficient means of hiring would be simply to look directly at standardized test scores, etc.

I think that it is important that undergraduate education remain within the means of all students through direct payment or an agreement to pay back a loan in the future, but to simply give it away for free attracts too many students.

My apologies for mixing up all of the different terms for "third level" education in this post, but in all cases I refer to the type of schooling you do from around 17-23 years of age.

[villa]

There's a third solution that appeals to the market socialist in me. I believe in freely available and accessible education, but I also have a problem with the idea of a free program that essentially acts to benefit the middle class.

So, how about a graduate tax? An extra point (or whatever) on income tax for those who go to college, which would be paid for by the government. Unlike a loan, this would not stop once "paid off." It would also remove the problem of loans which provides disincentives to those who wish to go into lower paid careers.

[Laudenum]

A graduate tax has been suggested, but when Britain was looking at the idea, the gov came up with this: http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/hegateway/upl...uate%20Tax.pdf

[gonzomax]

In Michigan where the economy is in the toilet, college tuition goes up about 10 % a year. There are less and less lenders offering loans and the price is rising. It will eventually be an option only for the wealthy or those on scholarships.
California many years ago paid the education of students after 6 months residence. it helped draw students and aided in the creation of the technological revolution they had.

[villa]

Originally Posted by Laudenum

A graduate tax has been suggested, but when Britain was looking at the idea, the gov came up with this: http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/hegateway/upl...uate%20Tax.pdf

Full disclosure - I was one of the last years of UK students to graduate before loans replaced grants (1990 graduation date) and spent my three year undergrad on a full grant, which of course didn't cover anywhere near costs of living.

I also have federal and private loans to pay off from law school over here in the US.

[GorillaMan]

Originally Posted by threemae

From my experience with Welsh and British exchange students from mid to lower level "undergrad" or "3rd level" institutions in the UK, the attitude is largely that such education is largely a three-four year long vacation in institutions lacking in rigor or purpose. It's a lot of wasted financial resources on the part of the state and time on the part of the students that could be studying harder or doing something else entirely in the work force or society.

This is very true, but isn't directly related to methods of funding. It is more a symptom of the simplistic political assumption that 'more people going to university' equates to 'better-educated population'. Rather than it meaning 'people unsuited to extended academic studies attending universities forced to accomodate them'.

BTW, the Welsh are British

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by gonzomax

In Michigan where the economy is in the toilet, college tuition goes up about 10 % a year. There are less and less lenders offering loans and the price is rising. It will eventually be an option only for the wealthy or those on scholarships.
California many years ago paid the education of students after 6 months residence. it helped draw students and aided in the creation of the technological revolution they had.

That's true. Today, because of funding reductions, we have a 3 class system - Universities like Berkeley and UCLA, Cal State universities, and 2 year community colleges. Lots of parents send their kids who could get into UCs to community colleges because they are very cheaper, and there are so many of them the kid can live at home. There is an expectation that the kid will transfer into a CSU or UC after two years.

If fees return in Ireland, you might wind up with something similar to make some college affordable. Certainly things are more expensive and less available now than they used to be.

BTW, the fee scale is very different for in-state and out-of-state students, though state schools are still cheaper than private school.

Cite - my checkbook.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by Phlosphr

Here in the states we have federal stafford loans and pell grants that work similar to having an interest free loan until you finish school and after the 6 month grace period. This helps people who cannot afford college and who wish to get an education and who fully intend on paying it back... I think the system works really well. However, with the price of university going up, up, up it's not uncommon to see a $120,000 bill at the end of your Bachelors.

I paid for my bachelors and got loans for grad school. this was in the early 90's

When I went the loans were interest free until I finished all my education, which was a good deal since the 10% inflation period was in the middle. For my daughter, there is interest payable immediately, and the rates aren't that great.

One big problem is that the chance of a gigantic outstanding loan drives students away from fields that might be socially beneficial but low paying. My son-in-law is just starting law school, and even today people are falling all over themselves to lend him money. I don't know if loans are harder to get for liberal arts majors, but I'm sure they'd be harder to pay off.

[KarlGrenze]

Originally Posted by Voyager

When I went the loans were interest free until I finished all my education, which was a good deal since the 10% inflation period was in the middle. For my daughter, there is interest payable immediately, and the rates aren't that great.

One big problem is that the chance of a gigantic outstanding loan drives students away from fields that might be socially beneficial but low paying. My son-in-law is just starting law school, and even today people are falling all over themselves to lend him money. I don't know if loans are harder to get for liberal arts majors, but I'm sure they'd be harder to pay off.

Subsidized Stafford is interest free while you're in school, Unsubsidized Stafford is low interest (usually, though last year Perkins at 5% had a lower rate), and accumulates immediately. There is also a limit on how much of that you can borrow (depending on undergraduate or graduate/professional studies).

Since I went to vet school, I had the maximum allowed for all of them (and took most of it). The last year I even had to apply for PLUS loans (and private loans) because the tuition had increased (around $2K per year from the first year I started vet school) and I needed extra money (to pay for licensing fees, board exam fees, graduation fees, and moving).