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  #1  
Old 08-26-2008, 12:37 PM
OtakuLoki OtakuLoki is offline
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Underwire Bras and the TSA (RO)

Or

Can we just give up pretending that the American public is really willing to do any thing useful about preventing airplane hijackings?


ISTM to that shortly after 9/11 the newly-formed TSA started advising travelers that under-wire bras would have a good chance of causing problems for the passengers at screening.

I remember, especially a flap when an airline stewardess was having a snit because the TSA people dared to investigate her after the metal in her bra set off the metal detectors.

This story from 2004 mentions some of the reasons why people should avoid underwire bras, as does this page from the TSA, itself.

This is not news. It's not supposed to be a sudden policy change, and for damned sure, it's not the outrage that this woman seems to think it should be.

IMNSHO the woman involved, and all other passengers, should be furious and shocked that this woman has been flying frequently for some time, now, without ever having her underwire bra set off the metal detectors. I am quite willing to wager large sums of money that I don't have that for the metal content of an underwire bra one could also manufacture a box cutter that would work quite well as a lethal weapon. (Just for one example - consider a plastic handle holding a razor blade, or one of the larger X-ActoTM knife blades)

Can we just stop pretending that the American public wants to do anything serious about security? The restrictions on passengers at this point seem to be simply multiplying the hassles of travel without reliably even causing the screeners to investigate things that they claim should be giving false positives! And the public's reaction when they do hear about a false positive, and how rare it is, isn't concern for what else might be going through the screening process unimpeded - just that the inconvenience is an outrage.

As a nation we're spending billions, I believe, on this security that doesn't seem to be working properly, and when it does work properly all that people can say is that it is an outrage. Why the fuck are we spending this money, again?



Excuse me, I need to beat my head against my desk. It will feel better than thinking about this idiocy.

Last edited by OtakuLoki; 08-26-2008 at 12:38 PM.. Reason: Forgot my RO tag
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  #2  
Old 08-26-2008, 12:41 PM
ultrafilter ultrafilter is offline
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The phrase you're looking for is security theater.
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  #3  
Old 08-26-2008, 12:49 PM
Zulema Zulema is offline
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My husband worked at a large airport, in the baggage area, for three months. He could have smuggled anything he wanted into the baggage area and gotten it on a plane. The metal detectors at boarding are supposed to increase our safety but it's all for show when there are easier ways to smuggle larger things on board.
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  #4  
Old 08-26-2008, 12:56 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is online now
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While I totally agree with you about the security thing being all fucked up, I have to say I would be a little indignant too about the bra. Some of the bustier among us can't really be comfortable in any bra but an underwire. You're telling me I can't even wear a goddamn comfortable bra to fly without getting shit for it? This is really getting out of hand.

Last edited by Spice Weasel; 08-26-2008 at 12:58 PM..
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  #5  
Old 08-26-2008, 12:56 PM
scout1222 scout1222 is offline
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Interesting. I always wear underwire, and I've never set off alarms. (I fly maybe 3-4 times a year, so admittedly I don't have a whole hell of a lot of experience.) To be honest, I really didn't know it was supposed to be an issue.


It occurs to me that perhaps the underwire in what I wear isn't metal. I'm not sure what Target's using these days for their cheapie stuff.

Last edited by scout1222; 08-26-2008 at 12:59 PM..
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  #6  
Old 08-26-2008, 12:59 PM
GilaB GilaB is offline
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Given that I have sometimes forgotten, and worn an underwire bra through security without incident, I've wondered if some 'wires' in bras are actually plastic. I've never wanted to cut up a representative sample of bras to check, as that seems expensive.
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  #7  
Old 08-26-2008, 01:00 PM
scout1222 scout1222 is offline
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GilaB, that's what I'm figuring. I just did a quick google and couldn't really find anything right off the bat.
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  #8  
Old 08-26-2008, 01:03 PM
gigi gigi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GilaB
Given that I have sometimes forgotten, and worn an underwire bra through security without incident, I've wondered if some 'wires' in bras are actually plastic. I've never wanted to cut up a representative sample of bras to check, as that seems expensive.
Mine's never set it off either. I think, from the times it's broken through and poked me, that it's metal with plastic coating on the ends.
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  #9  
Old 08-26-2008, 01:12 PM
phouka phouka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GilaB
Given that I have sometimes forgotten, and worn an underwire bra through security without incident, I've wondered if some 'wires' in bras are actually plastic. I've never wanted to cut up a representative sample of bras to check, as that seems expensive.
The most common form of death for my bras is an underwire poking through the fabric. I've found that the ratio of metal to plastic is about 2:1, with the metal often coated in plastic.

As far as airline security, it's really meaningless unless they arm all of us on the way in, or we all have to board naked. Anything else is just window dressing.
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  #10  
Old 08-26-2008, 01:31 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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We may be a few years away from ceramic handguns, but we sure as hell know how to make ceramic knives. And knives of hard plastic. Of what serious use is a metal detector?
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Old 08-26-2008, 01:44 PM
Dr. Woo Dr. Woo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scout1222
Interesting. I always wear underwire, and I've never set off alarms. (I fly maybe 3-4 times a year, so admittedly I don't have a whole hell of a lot of experience.) To be honest, I really didn't know it was supposed to be an issue.


It occurs to me that perhaps the underwire in what I wear isn't metal. I'm not sure what Target's using these days for their cheapie stuff.
Dayum. Ditto for me - I'm not a frequent traveler, maybe 6 or 7 flights a year, but I've always worn underwire bras, and didn't know it was an issue. I also suspect that under"wires" are that stiff plastic stuff like I used when I made my corset. I sure hope so.
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  #12  
Old 08-26-2008, 01:50 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is online now
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The irony is that the security obsessed mindset wants to reduce the general public to a mass of sheep that will obey any authority without question. And that's a hundred times more dangerous than any possible weapon a terrorist might smuggle aboard a plane in her bra.

Passengers were always told to sit down quietly and do whatever they were told if there was a hijacking - leave it to the experts. Hijackers and terrorists knew this and that enabled them to take over planes with box cutters.
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  #13  
Old 08-26-2008, 01:59 PM
TroubleAgain TroubleAgain is offline
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If they ever give me a hard time about mine, I'll just take it off, right there in the security area. It's easy enough to do without removing my shirt.
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  #14  
Old 08-26-2008, 02:05 PM
coffeecat coffeecat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtakuLoki
I am quite willing to wager large sums of money that I don't have that for the metal content of an underwire bra one could also manufacture a box cutter that would work quite well as a lethal weapon. (Just for one example - consider a plastic handle holding a razor blade, or one of the larger X-ActoTM knife blades)
Metal? Who needs metal?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, ACLU membership card held proudly in hand: We're all going to die. Deal with it. Let your death mean something, and bequeath a free country to your kids. Get you the sons your fathers got, and God will save the Queen. Or the Constitution.
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  #15  
Old 08-26-2008, 02:05 PM
lisacurl lisacurl is offline
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Originally Posted by TroubleAgain
If they ever give me a hard time about mine, I'll just take it off, right there in the security area. It's easy enough to do without removing my shirt.
Ditto. Hell, I'm on the verge of fed up by the time I've stripped off my shoes any way, I have no problem with flashing my tits to a TSA agent for good measure.
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  #16  
Old 08-26-2008, 02:23 PM
coffeecat coffeecat is offline
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ETA:

On preview, I see AHunter3 beat me to it.

Awesome post, Little Nemo. I wish it were mine!

TroubleAgain and lisacurl: Thank you for giving a man something to fight for. You are appointed Morale Officers.

Last edited by coffeecat; 08-26-2008 at 02:25 PM..
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  #17  
Old 08-26-2008, 02:40 PM
coffeecat coffeecat is offline
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At least we can have fun with it.
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  #18  
Old 08-26-2008, 02:41 PM
Joey P Joey P is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SP2263
My husband worked at a large airport, in the baggage area, for three months. He could have smuggled anything he wanted into the baggage area and gotten it on a plane. The metal detectors at boarding are supposed to increase our safety but it's all for show when there are easier ways to smuggle larger things on board.
I had a friend working at O'Hare. Pumping gas into planes I think. He said he was amazed to find out (when he started working there) that the workers got their own enterence. He said if he wanted to bring in a gun or bomb or whatever it wouldn't have posed any challenge what so ever.
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  #19  
Old 08-26-2008, 03:03 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtakuLoki
IMNSHO the woman involved, and all other passengers, should be furious and shocked that this woman has been flying frequently for some time, now, without ever having her underwire bra set off the metal detectors.
...

Excuse me, I need to beat my head against my desk. It will feel better than thinking about this idiocy.
So far as I am concerned, you outrage is misplaced.

These kinds of restrictions and procedures are not in the the legitimate pursuit of safety. They are rather a theater for training people to submit to more and more intrusive forms of scrutiny, to learn to order our lives and activities and movements for the benefit of security operatives.

At this point, people like you, apparently, are willing to do damn near anything so long as it's under the instructions of someone who carries a title with the word "security" in it.

Fuck that. It's not making us any safer. It's only making us less free.
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  #20  
Old 08-26-2008, 03:34 PM
iamthewalrus(:3= iamthewalrus(:3= is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtakuLoki
IMNSHO the woman involved, and all other passengers, should be furious and shocked that this woman has been flying frequently for some time, now, without ever having her underwire bra set off the metal detectors. I am quite willing to wager large sums of money that I don't have that for the metal content of an underwire bra one could also manufacture a box cutter that would work quite well as a lethal weapon. (Just for one example - consider a plastic handle holding a razor blade, or one of the larger X-ActoTM knife blades)
I think we should all be furious and shocked that a small knife is the threshold for security. Small knives stopped being effective threats against airplanes a few hours into the morning of Sept. 11. Yes, someone on board with a knife could probably kill a few people. But someone on the ground with a knife could kill people, too. And have a better chance of escaping without being beaten to death by a mob.
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  #21  
Old 08-26-2008, 03:35 PM
OtakuLoki OtakuLoki is offline
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Originally Posted by AHunter3
We may be a few years away from ceramic handguns, but we sure as hell know how to make ceramic knives. And knives of hard plastic. Of what serious use is a metal detector?

It's a placebo. And just as effective.


ascrenray, coffee cat, and Little Nemo:

My complaint is that the incredibly expensive security that has been added isn't effective. And because of the nature of security theatres, it can't be both effective and painless. And the public seems to expect it to be painless.

Given all that, why waste the money?

But, by the same token, I simply don't have sympathy for anyone who hasn't bothered to read what TSA is allowed to do. Or what they claim should be causing false positives.


ETA: to address iamthewalrus3=, I agree it's an asinine standard. Keys can be deadly weapons, too. And let's not talk about the effectiveness of garrotes, or wire saws, as weapons, either.

Perfect security is a chimera. Let's stop wasting time chasing it.

Last edited by OtakuLoki; 08-26-2008 at 03:38 PM..
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  #22  
Old 08-26-2008, 03:55 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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Originally Posted by OtakuLoki
But, by the same token, I simply don't have sympathy for anyone who hasn't bothered to read what TSA is allowed to do. Or what they claim should be causing false positives.
Once it is written, there can be no objection? What sense does that make? People are more likely to object to inappropriate grants of authority once they directly experience application of such authority. But you're saying that at that point they have no reasonable right to object?
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  #23  
Old 08-26-2008, 03:59 PM
OtakuLoki OtakuLoki is offline
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If I publish that I'm going to punch anyone in the nose, if I catch them wearing an "I'm with Stupid" t-shirt, why can't I think that you're an idiot if you only get upset with the policy once it affects you?
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  #24  
Old 08-26-2008, 04:31 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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I am in favor of any policy which has the effect of reducing bra use.
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  #25  
Old 08-26-2008, 04:37 PM
Telperien Telperien is offline
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Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright
I am in favor of any policy which has the effect of reducing bra use.
Should we count you as supportive of sagging boobs, then?
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  #26  
Old 08-26-2008, 04:43 PM
EddyTeddyFreddy EddyTeddyFreddy is offline
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Should we count you as supportive of sagging boobs, then?
Funny, I never would have pegged him for a Bush supporter.
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  #27  
Old 08-26-2008, 04:48 PM
Jayn_Newell Jayn_Newell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telperien
Should we count you as supportive of sagging boobs, then?
If they had any support, they wouldn't be sagging.

But seriously, it's hard enough finding a comfy underwired bra sometimes. Now I need to find one without just to fly? The last one I tried on wasn't comfortable and looked like ass.

Last edited by Jayn_Newell; 08-26-2008 at 04:49 PM..
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  #28  
Old 08-26-2008, 04:48 PM
Telperien Telperien is offline
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Originally Posted by Jayn_Newell
If they had any support, they wouldn't be sagging.
Maybe he's going to come round to our houses and hold them up for us.
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  #29  
Old 08-26-2008, 04:50 PM
ultrafilter ultrafilter is offline
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Originally Posted by EddyTeddyFreddy
Funny, I never would have pegged him for a Bush supporter.
Nah, you're thinking of something like jock straps. This thread's about bras.
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  #30  
Old 08-26-2008, 04:50 PM
Jayn_Newell Jayn_Newell is offline
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Maybe he's going to come round to our houses and hold them up for us.
That's what my husband's for, dingbat
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  #31  
Old 08-26-2008, 04:51 PM
Projammer Projammer is online now
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I've got a flight booked for next week that I'm really not looking forward to.

I guess I could always stuff my pockets and boots with these.
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  #32  
Old 08-26-2008, 04:55 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtakuLoki
If I publish that I'm going to punch anyone in the nose, if I catch them wearing an "I'm with Stupid" t-shirt, why can't I think that you're an idiot if you only get upset with the policy once it affects you?
Because that's human nature. There's too much shit in the world going on to pay attention to most stuff unless it affects you directly.

And so what if you think I'm an idiot? That doesn't mean I'm wrong about your punching policy. I should be allowed to stop you when you try to impose it on me.

Last edited by Acsenray; 08-26-2008 at 04:56 PM..
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  #33  
Old 08-26-2008, 05:04 PM
Santo Rugger Santo Rugger is offline
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Originally Posted by Jayn_Newell
But seriously, it's hard enough finding a comfy underwired bra sometimes. Now I need to find one without just to fly? The last one I tried on wasn't comfortable and looked like ass.
Now you just need to find a pair of panties that makes your ass look like tits.
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  #34  
Old 08-26-2008, 05:09 PM
DanBlather DanBlather is offline
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Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3=
I think we should all be furious and shocked that a small knife is the threshold for security. Small knives stopped being effective threats against airplanes a few hours into the morning of Sept. 11. Yes, someone on board with a knife could probably kill a few people. But someone on the ground with a knife could kill people, too. And have a better chance of escaping without being beaten to death by a mob.
Thanks, that's exactly what I would have posted if I weren't so lazy.
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  #35  
Old 08-26-2008, 05:12 PM
sugar and spice sugar and spice is offline
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Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th
While I totally agree with you about the security thing being all fucked up, I have to say I would be a little indignant too about the bra. Some of the bustier among us can't really be comfortable in any bra but an underwire. You're telling me I can't even wear a goddamn comfortable bra to fly without getting shit for it? This is really getting out of hand.
I wouldn't go around without an underwire bra either. But she did have another option, which was a pat-down search in a private room (IME these searches are same-sex):
Quote:
Originally Posted by link
"The woman touched my breast. I said, 'You can't do that,' " Kates said. "She said, 'We have to pat you down.' I said, 'You can't treat me as a criminal for wearing a bra.' "

...

The supervisor told her she had the choice of submitting to a pat-down in a private room or not flying. Kates offered a third alternative, to take off her bra and try again, which the TSA accepted.
Personally I think a pat-down is reasonable enough. And it sounds like a far better option than taking my bra off. But, that's just me.

FWIW, my underwires don't set of the walk-through detector but they have set off the wand (so do the screws in my arm). I don't remember what the follow-up was, though.

Last edited by sugar and spice; 08-26-2008 at 05:13 PM..
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  #36  
Old 08-26-2008, 05:14 PM
Orbifold Orbifold is offline
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Originally Posted by Joey P
I had a friend working at O'Hare. Pumping gas into planes I think. He said he was amazed to find out (when he started working there) that the workers got their own entrance. He said if he wanted to bring in a gun or bomb or whatever it wouldn't have posed any challenge what so ever.
Kinda puts the whole "no liquids in larger than 3 oz bottles" thing in perspective, doesn't it?

Of course, this should hardly be surprising. People didn't want to be safe after 9/11, they wanted to feel safe. Being safe, i.e. recognizing the actual risk of various activities and acting accordingly, well that might have felt inconvenient. Ah, but feeling safe--and you have to understand, by "feeling safe" I actually mean "feeling terrified", i.e. freaking out at every vaguely swarthy person in a jacket in airport lounges and having terrified nightmares about 4 ounces of shampoo rearing up to kill us all--well, that may be inconvenient. But it feels like security.

So show your papers, citizen! The Committee for State Security has issued new directives for airline passengers! Security is Freedom!
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  #37  
Old 08-26-2008, 06:08 PM
WhyNot WhyNot is offline
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I wear a G cup bra. (I should wear an I cup, but can't find one in a molded cup style, but I digress.) Each underwire is somewhere around 14 inches long and 1/3" wide, definitely made of metal and there are two, of course (as well as two roughly 4 inch strips of metal on the sides of the bra under the arm, in this particular style bra). I think that if I was sufficiently motivated, I could tear the casing of my bra and rip out each underwire in less than a minute. I'm not real up on weaponry, but I could certainly contrive to poke an eye out with one as is, or tear out my underwires at home and replace them each with 42 inches of actual wire, folded in a trifold manner and unfolded on the airplane to use as a garrote. I could even take them out, sharpen the inner edge to a knife's sharpness, put it back in the casing, sew it up and later use them as nifty scythe-like throat slitters.

I have never, ever tripped a metal detector with these huge honkin' underwires, though I've flown at least a dozen times wearing this bra design in particular since increased security measures were put into place. Sleep well, America, you're well and truly safe.
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  #38  
Old 08-26-2008, 06:12 PM
Eureka Eureka is offline
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Last summer--in fact, one year ago Saturday, well, the Saturday of Labor Day Weekend, one year ago--I flew on a flight which got extra screening at the gate. No idea why, I just remember that they wanted to pat down my bag--which held my laptop computer, a book or two, some counted cross stitch supplies, my purse, etc. and also pat down me. Well, probably a lighter level of patting down than the patdown search in a private room mentioned above as a solution to the underwire bra thing. I'm pretty sure that the pat down was not thorough enough to determine whether or not I had on an underwire bra-- I did not, as I think flying with underwires constitutes an unneccessary risk of setting off the metal detectors. At any rate, the pat down of my belongings felt way more invasive than the patdown of my person--which probably tells you something about how thorough each one was.

Unrelated to the above--last time I flew, I took with me a set of 5 very pointy metal sticks. I assure you, each one contains more than enough metal for two underwires. My metal sticks caused no problem whatsoever with the X-ray machine. But on Ravelry, which is dedicated to the knitting and crocheting communities, it is funny reading threads about taking pointy metal sticks or pointy non-metal sticks on planes. Partially because in some countries, one can't take knitting needles on planes, while in the US, you can. But also just because some people take paranoia to the extreme of trying NOT to look like they are planning to knit, while taking stuff which can be used to knit but doesn't look like it with them, and other people try to make their stuff look like knitting stuff and therefore harmless.

But there are certainly people who've had knitting confiscated, and others who have flown with needles that really should be classified as weapons. (Mine, mentioned above, were sock needles, so they are pointy on both ends, but really quite little).
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  #39  
Old 08-26-2008, 06:43 PM
Moirai Moirai is offline
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Oh yeah, I have taken 10 inch bamboo knitting needles on planes, as well as 18 inch stainless steel ones. Never a problem. Even my grandma could kill somebody with one of those, but no, they're fine as long as I don't bring more than 3 ounces of moisturizer in my purse...

But my underwire has never set off a magnetometer, although the minute bit of metal in my hair barrettes used to set off the one at Sky Harbor in Phoenix, every time. And that was years befor 9/11.
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  #40  
Old 08-26-2008, 06:54 PM
Gukumatz Gukumatz is offline
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Originally Posted by scout1222
GilaB, that's what I'm figuring. I just did a quick google and couldn't really find anything right off the bat.
I tried to check, too, but got distracted
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  #41  
Old 08-26-2008, 07:03 PM
BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed is offline
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Originally Posted by Eureka
Unrelated to the above--last time I flew, I took with me a set of 5 very pointy metal sticks. I assure you, each one contains more than enough metal for two underwires. My metal sticks caused no problem whatsoever with the X-ray machine. But on Ravelry, which is dedicated to the knitting and crocheting communities, it is funny reading threads about taking pointy metal sticks or pointy non-metal sticks on planes. Partially because in some countries, one can't take knitting needles on planes, while in the US, you can. But also just because some people take paranoia to the extreme of trying NOT to look like they are planning to knit, while taking stuff which can be used to knit but doesn't look like it with them, and other people try to make their stuff look like knitting stuff and therefore harmless.

But there are certainly people who've had knitting confiscated, and others who have flown with needles that really should be classified as weapons. (Mine, mentioned above, were sock needles, so they are pointy on both ends, but really quite little).
I've never had trouble with having my crochet hooks taken away on the half dozen or so flights I've had them with me. I guarantee that I could do almost as much damage with pens or crochet hooks as I could with a tiny jackknife.
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  #42  
Old 08-26-2008, 07:10 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Originally Posted by Telperien
Maybe he's going to come round to our houses and hold them up for us.
Indeed, and at no extra cost.
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  #43  
Old 08-26-2008, 07:33 PM
Telperien Telperien is offline
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Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright
Indeed, and at no extra cost.
You, sir, are a true humanitarian.
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  #44  
Old 08-26-2008, 07:35 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Originally Posted by Telperien
You, sir, are a true humanitarian.
In the interest of full disclosure, I plan on putting this on my resume as an example of my non-work related service activity.

Probably right after my volunteer work as an oil boy at the Miss Hawaiian Tropic contest.
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  #45  
Old 08-26-2008, 07:56 PM
Telperien Telperien is offline
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Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright
In the interest of full disclosure, I plan on putting this on my resume as an example of my non-work related service activity.

Probably right after my volunteer work as an oil boy at the Miss Hawaiian Tropic contest.
Well, I've always been told that relevant volunteer work goes on there.
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  #46  
Old 08-26-2008, 08:26 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is offline
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Join Date: May 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtakuLoki
If I publish that I'm going to punch anyone in the nose, if I catch them wearing an "I'm with Stupid" t-shirt, why can't I think that you're an idiot if you only get upset with the policy once it affects you?
Why would you expect anyone to let you get away with punching them in the nose just because you published the claim that you'd do so? This is a very stupid analogy.

Stranger
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  #47  
Old 08-26-2008, 08:27 PM
Harmonious Discord Harmonious Discord is offline
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Join Date: Apr 1999
Shocker band and tracker for all passengers on airplanes. Just think how the the flight attendant will handle you, when they think your dress is too short, or you look menacing.
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  #48  
Old 08-26-2008, 08:32 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Join Date: May 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train
Why would you expect anyone to let you get away with punching them in the nose just because you published the claim that you'd do so? This is a very stupid analogy.
For the same reason that passengers are expected to let the TSA get away with feeling them up and rooting through their luggage because the sign says they will.
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  #49  
Old 08-26-2008, 09:24 PM
Morelin Morelin is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by scout1222
Interesting. I always wear underwire, and I've never set off alarms. (I fly maybe 3-4 times a year, so admittedly I don't have a whole hell of a lot of experience.) To be honest, I really didn't know it was supposed to be an issue.
Heck, I worked at an airport almost daily for 6 months, and I didn't set off any alarms, or even know it was an issue. I've also been wanded, for a knee brace, and my bra didn't set it off. Of course, I hardly ever notice which bra I'm wearing, wired or not.

Last edited by Morelin; 08-26-2008 at 09:25 PM..
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  #50  
Old 08-26-2008, 10:33 PM
horsetech horsetech is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telperien
You, sir, are a true humanitarian.
Shocking! I had him pegged as a vegetarian.

D&R
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