What's up at Ground Zero?

I have wanted to ask this for a while… I’m not sure if this should be GQ or the Pit. Could be GQ since there are probably factual answers. Could be Pit because I don’t expect satisfying answers. Since asking probably implies that I hate America, we can just Pit Me if the answer is really something simple and reasonable.

My Questions:
Is there still a huge hole in the ground in Manhattan?

If not, please show me the new building (in whatever current state). Thanks.

If so, why hasn’t anything been built yet?

How long does it typically take to build a skyscraper in the 21st century? (OK this is almost rhetorical because I saw one go up in SF this year in No Time Flat. But I’m still curious what the expectation should be under normal conditions, which these certainly were not.)

Bonus (loaded) questions:
How many skyscrapers has Dubai built since 2001?

Am I wrong to feel somehow ashamed that we still have nothing but a hole in the ground*?

WTF America?

*I am not personally certain of the state of the building there. I did some admittedly weak googling and found some photos that appear to be from 2008. I could be way off base with all of this though.

On further reading (will do that first next time) it seems I’m a bit late to post impatiently about Freedom Tower progress. The main clusterfuck of it seems to have been 2001-2006. I’m sure cleanup was complicated, but the Freedom Tower plan was only set in 2006. This year they’ll get above ground! Congrats! Open in 2012. Is it supposed to take 5-10 years? I guess most of my post is irrelevant/out-dated, but I think I stand by my, “WTF America?” I thought we’d make a point of coming back stronger there. When they open the place, we’ll be halfway done raising a generation who don’t even remember the attacks.

You need to learn patience. Large structures take a long time to plan and build. Of course, this took longer than usual, but there were special situations.

To compare, we had an earthquake in the Bay Area in 1989 and the new span of the Bay Bridge, now under construction, is expected to be complete in 2013.

Ed

Well, they spent half a million dollars to move a fucking staircase.
Survivors’
Staircase

Well I was gonna let it be, but the more I think about it, I had to come back to put some spine into an obviously weak First Pitting.

On further consideration, I have decided that terrorist attack/hazardous site be damned, there is no fucking excuse for the lack of a shining, new, fully occupied, profitable skyscraper in place right now. Fuck that … a year ago. 10 years to replace a building is abject failure. And failure in this instance where it was symbolically so important to do something RIGHT, is that much worse. Osama bin Laden must be laughing his ass off. Every day that hole in the ground exists is another day of his victory dance. (Doesn’t help that Bush “Isn’t concerned” about him either.)

Here are a few things off the top of my head that took less time than replacing a (very important) demolished building in NYC:

Conquering Europe (on more than one occasion!)
Conquering half of Asia ON FOOT (Khan and/or Alexander)
Destroying and partially rebuilding Iraq
The Apollo Program
Building a brand new Nimitz Class aircraft carrier
Entire cities have gone up in China in less time

oh snap! The Great Pyramid took 20 years! We might beat Egypt. What a bunch of fucking slackers they were.

So yeah. No “maybe” ashamed about it. This is a pathetic display of what America is really made of today. We talk a big game but look at the result. We are going to get our asses handed to us this century. We have DEstruction down pat. CONstruction? Eh, not so much.
On preview: the Bay Bridge is a good example. But they did a lot of repairs to it right away, and construction of the new span hasn’t been drip-dripping along since the quake. Only a couple years now. AND it wasn’t a huge symbolic black-eye that need to be patched up for morale’s sake as much as profit. How many dollars per day has Manhattan lost without something useful there? How many speeches and shitty country songs about “they can’t keep us down” and “come back stronger than ever” did we hear?

Dubai builds them in virgin soil. Much easier than over a collapsed structure which, along with the skyscraper element, went well down into the ground as well, including a subway station. Plus (I presume) the small possibility of further human remains still to be found?

Are you an architect? No? Then stuff it. The planning for the original WTC began in 1960 and was not completed until 1972. That’s 12 years. It’s not even been 7 years since the Towers fell.

Plus, insurance issues, several lawsuits, and, as said before, a full shopping center and major subway interchange below Ground Zero.

Another point, to counter the ‘China builds cities in a few years’ argument: just wait till one of them gets hit by a natural disaster.

A wide variety of reasons, including disputes over who owns the property and the fact that there are absolutely too many cooks in the fucking kitchen on this project, and a LOT of powerful emotions from families who just want the right tribute to their lost relatives, but of course, don’t all agree on what that should be - and that’s multiplied by a factor of about 2,800. Some of the buildings at the site have been replaced. What hasn’t been built is the Freedom Tower (and what a shitty name that is). There was hope that it could be done by September 11, 2011, but everybody’s now acknowledged that that’s not happening.

Some time after the attacks, people realized the building needed to be replaced. Personally I would have preferred a park, but I recognize that the office space is needed. So in time, major firms were asked for designs and one of those designs was chosen. That design wasn’t just for one building, it included the FT, a museum, the memorial pool and some other memorial/museum type structures. But several thousand families were involved and groups of them had different views. I believe some firefighters’ families thought the firefighters should be listed along with the people who had worked in the towers, but others thought they deserved special recognition. That’s one example. There were fights over how things should be set up at the memorial pool, the content of the museum, and on and on it goes.

Then there’s the FT itself. One design was chosen, but almost immediately, elements of it had to be reworked. It was decided that the atrium was too close to the street, for example, which left it vulnerable to car bombs. So that was redesigned into something that - last time I looked at an artist’s conception - looked like an unpleasant military bunker instead of an open, airy structure with a lot of huge windows. Elements from rejected designs were worked into the accepted FT proposal as everybody fought to get the bestest and nicest tribute for the group they represented. The overall effect made the whole thing more confused and crappier, and for the record the winning choice was not my favorite to start with. I think the whole thing had to be redone from scratch at one point, and I remember disputes about whether the big spire should be centrally located or somewhat off center.

Early on, but contemporaenous with some of that bullshit, the NY-NJ Port Authority got into a fight with Larry Silverstein, who I believe was the WTC landlord. He said it was his property, they said it was theirs. Eventually they reached a settlement, but naturally, it took a long while.

And THEN there was the minor problem of a lack of interest in the FT from potential tenants. The owners assumed demand would be huge, but actually, it hasn’t been. The potential tenants are concerned that the building is a target for terrorists, and they probably anticipated that construction was going to be much delayed and didn’t want that kind of uncertainty. Meanwhile the market for rela estate is less than great, if you hadn’t noticed.

And of course, none of the building could start until all the wreckage was carried away and everyone was satisfied that all the human remains had been gathered. More remains were found relatively recently, which lead to another search and complaints that that part of the process had been deliberately rushed through so construction could start. I suspect that’s at least somewhat true.

I think that’s a fair overview. The problem is not “America.”

I stand by my point that large structures in congested areas take longer to design and build than most people realize.

Another example from my local area, but one that is unknown nationally, is the reconstruction of the I-680/California Highway 24 interchange, in Walnut Creek, California. This cost over $300 million and took ten years of work.

(Basically this major freeway interchange had to be entirely redesigned, moving all the traffic flows around.)

Ed

I think you might be overlooking the fact that they’re building it in midtown Manhattan- the most densely built (and probably populated) area in the United States. It takes for ever to get across Manhattan in a taxi- imagine how hard it might be to get a truckload of cement or girders to the construction area.

It’s not nearly as hard to get across Dubai (and presumably, therefore, not nearly as hard to get materials to the construction site).

That said, Canary Wharf Tower/One Canada Square (in London) and Taipei 101 both went from planning to completion in less than five years, despite suffering from the same logistical difficulties.

ETA: The Canary Wharf Tower had the added difficulty of its developers going insolvent, which resulted in a work stoppage of a year or two, IIRC.

Looks like Al Qaeda is fed up with the delays too. :wink:

It’s lower Manhattan, not midtown, but that could be a complicating factor too. Anyway, it’s not a big hole in the ground these days, as 7 WTC has been replaced with a new building - I hope that’s the correct one - but there are portions where nothing has happened. Construction of the Freedom Tower has started, though.

As long as we’re talking about replacing California transportation, we should throw in the Santa Monica Freeway after the Northridge quake. I mean, it took them over 120,000 minutes to fix that! No way the Bay Bridge, or the Cypress replacement, or the 680/24 interchange would ever have taken that long.

Welcome to NYC and most importantly, the Port Authority.
Who has to approve of the design?

The city? The State? Of NY and NJ? The Port Authority? The victims families who want a say in the memorial?
All of the above and then some.

But I know what you mean.

I thought it was Al Qaeda, or does “you broke it, you bought it” not apply to large buildings?

:wink:

Thanks Marley. Good answer. Well, “informative” answer anyway… I still see the whole political story of the delays and scratch my head, wondering, “This is the best we’ve got, eh? Go team. facepalm

And the Onion is awesome as ever. I guess I’m not the only one who feels this way.

I’m in the Bay Area also, and this thought has been itching at me as I watched that building go up at the end of the Bay Bridge. I swear it wasn’t anywhere to be seen in like March or something…

Clearly this must be an East Coast-West Coast thang.

Well, they DID have some problems with the Cybermen/Dalek invasion, so it’s understandable…

Speaking as someone who has lived in and around NYC since I was a kid, there is no fucking way I would ever work in a skyscraper at that location. Ever.

The only people I have met that are gung-ho about that tower and willing to occupy it weren’t here that day.