It seems that in the US there are a great number of foreign doctors, many seem to be middle eastern.
Are they foreign trained doctors who move to the US?
Are they being trained here and staying here to practice medicine?
Is this a recent trend or have I just started noticing it?
Doctors in the US make good money.
Foreign doctors like to make money, move to where they can make good money.
Space in US medical schools is limited so there are not that many new US doctors graduating, there is a demand for doctors. It also makes it an attractive profession leading to foreign students entering US medical schools.
Businesses, such as HMO, can hire foreign doctors cheaper than they can hire US doctors. Pay them relocation expences and some training for a US license.
Is the medical training in the middle east of the same quality as it is in the US?
(please note, I have no idea, I’m just asking)
It doesn’t matter. To practice in the US you need to pass a bunch of US medical exams and do a residency no matter where you studied.
The reason there are so many foriegn doctors in the US is because those governments pay for those doctors to come to the US and study medicine. Some once the come here decide never to go back after they get their degree, others practice in both countries. I know for a fact the the Chinese government pays its citizens to come to the US to study and provides them with a car, housing, and a computer. It is difficult for an american citizen to compete with a foriegn student when the foriegn student gets this type of backing where as the american may have to work while in school.
I would be interested to know what sort of numbers/percentages we are talking about.
In places like the Phillipines standards can be very high, certainly good enough to meet First World standards but the pay is not as good and, possibly more important for educated proffessionals, the prospects for their chldren are likely to be much better.
I think that medical students in the US have to pay the full costs of their training, if this is so, then it may well reduce the number of people who might otherwise be suitable but do not have the means.It is probably more profitable to take on fully trained and qualified staff than to train your own.
This might mean that there is a shortfall which in turn puts salaries up and so sucks in suitably trained people from around the world.(this is speculative so please correct if I’m wrong)
In the UK students do have to fund their training to some degree but it is heavily subsidised. The working hours and conditions make it much less attractive than working in the US. There has been a shortage of medical labour for some time and this has resulted in junior doctors working 36 hour shifts or as much as 80 hour a week.
Trying to fill this gap is not an easy task, you cannot get staff trained in just two or three years so now we have adopted the same tactics as the US - we import our medical staff - to the detriment of the sending nation.
The only good thing to come out of this is that the funds are now available and it is just a matter of time.
I only know about Nepal, but I can say that the reason Nepali doctors practice elsewhere is that there’s no money to be made in Nepal. And I mean no money. The charity I work for runs a medical clinic and the doctor’s salary is less than $4,000 (USD) per year. He could make a bit more if he worked in the city in a for-profit hospital or private practice, but not much.
Don’t forget that a foreign student who is subsidized by his country is something American medical schools love. Not only are they getting top dollar, but they are doing it all in the name of “diversity”! From what I understand, many schools target foreign countries… in a way, it makes good business sense. The odds are that a foreign student that is subsidized will be a cash cow for a number of years for the university and is much less likely to drop out due to financial reasons (I really don’t have any real facts to back this up… just stories from a doctor friend of mine and his personal observations).
America is an attractive place to practice medicine since salaries are higher than other countries and there is good access to the latest technology. There are too many doctors, especially specialists, in the States right now so the first of these points is changing.
Having foreign residents is attractive to most hospitals. Aside from the divrsity, foreigners pay a premium to study in the US. In Canada, foreign residents do not draw a salary, although for a 90 hour work week (no kidding, and maxing out at 110) intenrs get paid a little more than $20,000 US.
Countries like Saudi Arabia pay medical students well to study abroad and come back. Not all foreign students return, but getting a visa to stay in the States has become difficult and in many cases you hope for your green card.
I doubt China subsidizes medical students, although they may fund residents. At this stage, competition does not come into play. But with tuition costs rising so rapidly, the people who attend medical school are considerably wealthier than in the past. I think this is tragic.
I would certainly consider moving to the States for a few years to pay my debts off more quickly. I don’t regret not doing a residency there. As a Canadian, I don’t have to do an American residency to practice in the States. But I don’t owe my government anything after working as a resident, especially when tuition fees went up 250% during med school. The statistics saying how much it costs to educate a student are essentially propoganda, generally including the significant cost for medical research done by the university and independent of the student.
I know that Iraq has a med program deal with the University of Missouri Kansas City.
–Tim
The US government does offer some relief from student debt if you join the armed forces or the Public Health Service after graduating medical school. I don’t know how much, exactly, but the service obligation is 4 years, I think. Kinda long if you’ve got better prospects.
Robin
Doctors who are foreign trained have to pass a series of USA tests, and they have to serve a residency in a USA hospital. Most teaching hospitals in the USA are also ‘charity’ hospitals. These teaching hospitals use the doctors (residents and interns) as slave labor. Therefore these hospitals have a strong incentive to import as many residents as they can. (within a set of government approved rules)
Imagine you’re the CEO of Cook County hospital. You’ve got lost of poor sick people, not enough doctors, and no budget. The solution…import some free foreign doctors. Of course, after 3-10 years they are free to practice anywhere they like.
As a computer geek, I can tell you that there are a lot of foreign computer types too. This used to be called the “Brain Drain”, but I haven’t heard that phrase in decades.
This can’t be good to the countries that are losing their techies and doctors, but too bad for them I guess.
It’s usually four years, but it usually doesn’t cover the entire cost. I have two different service commitments–one public, one private–that cover the entire cost of school if I work in E. Kentucky doing primary care for four years after residency.
I’d say fewer than 10% of my class is doing anything like this, though. The vast majority just borrow the money and pay it back on their own.
Very few medical students hold down much of a job outside school anymore. The hours just don’t allow it. Many schools, including mine, require the students to sign a document promising not to work while school is in session.
Dr. J
I’d like to clear some confusion here.
Q:It seems that in the US there are a great number of foreign doctors, many seem to be middle eastern.
Perhaps, on vacation. “Foreign doctors” are not allowed to practice in th U.S. Except Canadian doctors.By reciprocity.
Any graduate of American or Canadian accredited medical school is an American medical graduate (AMG), regardless of place of birth.
Any graduate of non-accredited school (e.g., in Grenada) is a foreign medical graduate(FMG), regardless of place of birth.
A special two-day (currently) test is administered twice/year all over the world for the graduates of non-accredited but “accepted” medical schools, who are willing to take the test and paid the fee.
Those who passed the tests are eligible to apply for training in an American (or Canadian) hospital. A hospital must be approved for training. Each state has different requirements (which sometimes differ further by specialty) for M.D. licensing. A license to ptactice medicine is granted by each state to anyone, who:
- Graduated from an accredited medical school or graduated from an “accepted” medical school and passed the qualifying exam for FMG.
- Completed the required training in the accredited hospital.
- Passed an exam called National BoardII (for AMG) or its equivalent called FLEX (for FMG).
- Many hospitals hire only “board-certified” doctors, i.e. doctors who passed special 1-2-3 day “specialty” test. Many may hire a “non-certified” doctor, but condition their employment on passing the test within specified time.
The laws which made it possible for FMG to practice in the U.S. were adopted when this country experienced shortage; American medical schools could not train students fast enough. Since then, doctors’ salaries increased and practicing medicine here became attractive. Practicing other professions here is attractive, too. AFAIK, “foreign” doctors have to take more hurdles before they are allowed to practice here, than any other profession.
The current results are:
- many innercity, municipal hospitals have a large labor pool, consisting of both AMG and FMG. The salaries are equal.
- Some medical institutions hire (officially or factually) only AMG.
- Best hospitals have “the best of both worlds”: the predominant workforce is AMG, FMG allowed to work are supposedly, “the cream de la creme”.
- Marginal hospitals (HMO ?) can hire FMG (which, of course, may be better or worse than AMG), for less money.
puddleglum, what’s a foreign doctor? In California, whites are in a minority. Does that make white doctors foreign?
Some foreign countries make it easier to become a doctor. But some foreign countries push education much more than the US so foreign people are usually very intelligent.
Foreign doctors are sons and daughters of wealthy offshore families. Their home countries are becoming developed, meaning the ruling elite must move elsewhere to avoid repercussions and seizures of ill-gotten fortunes. The doctor business is a great money laundering cover since money cannot leave their country except to support family. A doctor can deposit or invest huge amounts from family without causing investigations, assisted by a few private banks here and in the Caymans or in real estate or many other investments (yes even in America). All this rests on the laws encouraging foreign citizens to become doctors and bring their skills back home, but since they donate large sums to get admitted to medical schools. Most schools in other lands give grades by payment not by ability, so all are A students. Immigration and citizenship is also given by amount paid (yes even in America).
Funny this thread should come up. My doctor said I was malnourished and that I should eat more brains…
Based on the content of your post, I’m guessing you missed the first word in the board motto. It’s “Fighting ignorance since 1973”.
Zombie, brains etc…
ETA slight zombie ninja.
Every poster from #16 or earlier might already be a zombie.