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#1
10-10-1999, 11:59 PM
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Why does everyone think they can write poetry? Most people are barely literate, walking around with their knuckles scraping the ground and communicating by means of grunts, but yet they think they can eloquently express their thoughts in verse!
Please people, leave the poetry to the poets! I apologize to any actual poets on this board, but I was just trying to find some poetry resources on the web, and. . . 
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#2
10-11-1999, 12:41 AM
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Hmmmm
Poetry is like an asshole; everyone has one. Share what builds up behind you or you will explode! IMHO: I think Walt Whitman can just roll in his grave but apparently, for reasons that escape me, other people like him. Okay, I can tolerate him. I don't like him but if you do..... okay. I don't like snails but if YOU do.... as long as I don't have to kiss you later or listen to you read Walt's drivel then I'm a happy camper! This leads right into the CRITIC: they are the hemorrhoids on assholes; not every hole has them but enough of them do or they wouldn't have created Preparation H. I don't like Walt but hey, that's just me. If you don't like a poet (or a writer, or a movie mogul) then yeah, that's just you. Don't read them, shun their books and point out to others as often as you can just how much that person sucks (like Walt Whitman). Share your own works but if you really find someone you don't like (Walt Whitman) be sure to make your personal (WALT SUCKS!) Feelings known. Oh, yeah, BTW... what is YOUR poetry like? ------------------ The moon looks on many flowers, the flowers on but one moon.
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#3
10-11-1999, 12:42 AM
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There once was a Samurai near Seattle
Who hated my poorly-metered prattle. No Wordsworth, I: A turd's worth! (sigh) But love to hear Sake-breath's saber rattle!
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#5
10-11-1999, 01:47 AM
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In the style (sort of) of S. Plath
Night befalls me And restlessness abound That quasi-cult draws me in... Powerless Driven to Debate Or simply lurk Unbeknownst to "they" And sneak up with the Mundane. Traipsing and Tromping through Query I've little to say Yet oft reply. Unbreakable bindings Innumerable hauntings I am part of The Ultimate System Chained: almost, yet Wonderfully so. ...ah, who'm I kiddin'... Sylvia Plath is way outta my league. In the style (sort of) of TennHippie I refer to myself as a poet. But am rarely inclined to show it. I write verse after verse, But just seem to get worse, So into the garbage I throw it. ------------------ "ChrisCTP-...the sweetheart of the SDMB..." --Diane Chris' Homepage: Domestic Bliss
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#6
10-11-1999, 02:05 AM
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He don't like them poems, so I thought I'd show him,
I mix with the best of them, just tell me I don't. If the muse hits I'll write 'em, and kick scratch and bitin, I'll publish it, damn all those fools say I won't. ------------------ "Waheeey! 'Duck!' Get it?" "Errr.... No..." "Duck! Sounds almost exactly like fu-"
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#8
10-11-1999, 09:05 AM
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Don't get me started...
Too late. FREE VERSE IS NOT POETRY!! God, can there be anything more idiotic than some dolt writing what is in essence flowery prose sentences and then calling it poetry simply because of erratically placed carriage returns? Nope. Art without constraint is just self-indulgent literary masturbation. And now, for the high-school literary yearbook free verse parody: My toenail clippings were once part of me but then I cut off the yellowed crescent piece of dead skin and flushed them down the toilet gone
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#9
10-11-1999, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
ChrisCTP: That's more Anthony Robbins than Sylvia Plath. The "Shithouse Wall" indeed. I have no problem with free verse, in fact in some cultures it is the traditional norm. It's true, the majority of people abuse it (moriah's example and of course, e.e.cummings), but there's nothing that says you must rhyme and use copiuos puctuation. Whatever best conveys your thoughts. Language must not get in the way.
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#10
10-11-1999, 11:09 AM
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Re: Free Verse is not Poetry...
Just outta curiousity, if you want to read a book of words by any one of the writers who do "free verse", what section of the bookstore or library do you think you'll find it in? Poetry. Don't be such a snob. How interesting would poetry be if all poems were the same? ------------------ "ChrisCTP-...the sweetheart of the SDMB..." --Diane Chris' Homepage: Domestic Bliss
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#11
10-11-1999, 03:11 PM
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Okay, you've opened the can-o-worms.
What is poetry? If somebody writes something and calls it a poem, or anybody else calls it a poem, it is a poem. It may be bad poetry, but it is poetry nevertheless. Likewise, if somebody paints, draws, sews, sculpts, nails together, or otherwise assembles mediums and calls it art, or anybody else calls it art, it's art. It may be bad art, but it is art. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. Great Danes are dogs, Chihuahuas are dogs, Labrador Retrievers are dogs, mongrels of all kinds are dogs, even (cringe) toy poodles are dogs. The beauty of the dog is in the eye of the beholder, but they are all dogs.
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#13
10-11-1999, 03:59 PM
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Poetry is what you make of it. I like things that rhyme, it just seems to flow better then irregularly placed ramblings. You can take just about any piece of literature and make it poetry, it all depends on what the author of the piece thinks of calling it. I for one hate free verse, just doesn't do it for me. I consider myself a very weak poet, I don't try and make very inciteful, deep, layered poetry, I go for funny. I also think that if you spend more than 30 minutes a month on poetry, you have serious problems.
------------------ "I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information."-- Calvin and Hobbes (__) `\/-------\ `| |-----| |\ ..c.c......c.c....
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#14
10-11-1999, 04:12 PM
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A blue urinal may be art and "There once was a man from Nantucket..." may be a poem, but that doesn't make their creators artists and poets.
Just like putting the Pet-of-the-month on the garage wall doesn't make you an interior designer and making a wooden box for Spot to sleep in doesn't make you an architect (and if Spot is a Shih Tzu, it doesn't make him a dog). There is an elment of craftmenship in art (poetry, music, et al) - it's more than just throwing something together and selling it. Sure, someone may buy the vacuum-cleaner-on-a-pedestal for $202,000 because the "art" world is more about marketing than art these days. Not everyone thinks they have the talent to paint or write a great short story, but when it comes to poetry - they're suddenly Paul Celan. I hate it, and I hate when they ask my honest opinion about their drivel. No one really wants to hear it, so they're surprised as hell when I tell them that it's "very simian" and "very simian, indeed!" What do we do when even the damn Poet Laureate of the country is a huge hack?
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#15
10-11-1999, 04:41 PM
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Just to ask, is there anyone writing today who you consider to be GOOD?
(I'll offer my list when I can think of more than Sharon Olds and Margaret Atwood)
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#16
10-11-1999, 05:00 PM
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The MW Online Dictionary had two entries for "poetry":
po*et*ry (noun) First appeared 14th Century 1 a : metrical writing : VERSE b : the productions of a poet : POEMS 2 : writing that formulates a concentrated imaginative awareness of experience in language chosen and arranged to create a specific emotional response through meaning, sound, and rhythm 3 a : something likened to poetry esp. in beauty of expression b : poetic quality or aspect <the ~ of dance> ...and... concrete poetry (noun) First appeared 1958 : poetry in which the poet's intent is conveyed by the graphic patterns of letters, words, or symbols rather than by the conventional arrangement of words ~~~~~~~~ Hm. I saw the word "rythm", but not "rhyme". Personally, I've always thought "poetry" was a general term, with little subclasses (lyrical poetry, free verse poetry, haiku, etc.) I use many different writing styles, including free verse (thankfully, nothing as atrocious as that awful attempt at imitating Ms. Plath) and I consider it poetry. When I write said poetry, I am a poet. When I'm writing prose, I am an essayist. In general, I call myself a writer, and the reader can judge for him/herself whether or not I'm any good. I'm still going to write, because it's therapy for me. And I'm still going to call free verse "poetry".
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#17
10-11-1999, 05:36 PM
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Drain Bead: Alas, most of the poets I admire are dead. Among the living I like Lucien Stryk and Octavio Paz. Atwood is very strong. I have a friend whom I admire as well.
Chris: I understand very well writing for therapy - although sometimes it just makes things worse for me. Some things are best left unwritten!
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#18
10-11-1999, 07:49 PM
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Whoa, kids, don't go throwing those pointy technical terms around like that, you might put someone's eye out.
As the self-designated inserter of semi-off-topic snotty intellectual asides, I feel compelled to imform y'all that free verse has nothing to do with rhyme. Free verse is the opposite of metrical verse. It can be rhymed or unrhymed. Scientific surveys has proven the the vast majority of very bad poetry is, in fact, rhymed poetry written by 14-yr-old girls suffering from crushes on celebrities named Corey. My favorite poets are Shel Silverstein and Daniil Kharms, BTW. ------------------ "There is nothing you ought to do, for the simple reason that you know nothing, nothing whatever- make a mental note of that, if you please." -V. Nabokov
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#19
10-11-1999, 09:16 PM
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Sake: the good news is, I won't try for poetry/doggerel.
The bad news: I agree w/ TennHippie. There are taste and preference and good and bad in any art. But I'd far rather people love language, use it, even badly, in an honest pursuit of expression. That's why, as much as I personally loathe rap music, it still has it's own integrity of purpose: people playing with language, experimenting, making mistakes, but *using* it. Could this difference of opinion be part of your contempt for Pinsky? Completely leaving aside taste preferences, I greatly admire his passion for poetry and his drive to share that love with everyday people. He strives to give Americans a love of poetry and language like the Welsh and Russians have. He's trying to share a passion for the texture and rhythmn and sounds and richness of our language. Hey, people *learn*, okay? Everybody is a beginner at something. If someone is still under construction as a poet, then it seems to me the criticism should be constructive, too. It's patently unfair, and rather vicious, to condemn honest efforts that don't match an arbitrary opinion of what perfection should be. Cut people some slack, already. So you don't like their efforts. They TRIED, damnit, and the least you can do is give them a kindly and *constructive* analysis of your thoughts. Bad at a lot of things, Veb
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#20
10-11-1999, 11:04 PM
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Forgot to add that, of course, that this is merely the opinion of a barely literate, grunting dolt who wishes she could bandage her bleeding knuckles.
It's so annoying when the masses insist on bleeding on the pavement just because they're too insensitive too notice pain and not literate enough to get the box of BandAids open. (Grunt!) Veb
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#21
10-11-1999, 11:32 PM
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Well, I'm no fan of poetry, or prose (which is what I call a-rhythmic rhymeless 'poetry') which is why my little piece of nonsense above is so awful.
I find a lot of it either to be pretentious, or incomprehensible, and when it's without rhyme I can't figure out why write it in all those broken lines and crap. What's wrong with just making it a paragraph like any other writing? Oh well. Like anyone's gonna change their artistic endeavours on my account. ------------------ "Waheeey! 'Duck!' Get it?" "Errr.... No..." "Duck! Sounds almost exactly like fu-"
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#22
10-12-1999, 12:22 AM
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TVeblen brings up some good points (and well put). The only thing I have to add is that I have no problem with people trying to express their thoughts and emotions in poetry. I just have a problem with them forcing it upon others.
Now if you can use words well. . .then it's a different story. I'm not that arrogant that I won't listen to a new voice. GuanoLad, what poetry do you appreciate?
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#23
10-12-1999, 07:43 AM
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I don't really like any poetry. Sometimes I might read something and it's kind of nice, but really I just don't get into it at all.
------------------ "Waheeey! 'Duck!' Get it?" "Errr.... No..." "Duck! Sounds almost exactly like fu-"
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#24
10-12-1999, 09:34 AM
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I personally really like the poetry of Leonard Cohen.
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#25
10-12-1999, 10:45 AM
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Off the top of my head I don't recall Cohen's poetry - do you know of any good web respources for his writings(or should I do the work)?
GuanoLad: Poetry's not for everyone. Schools should really stop shoving it down the throats of students. A huge amount of it (e.g., most of Browning, T.S.Elliot, Longfellow, etc.) is pretentious, self-indulgant drivel. There are, however, many poets who do not suffer from an overdeveloped ego. There are few pleasures greater than discovering a suberb, new poet.
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#26
10-12-1999, 11:39 AM
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This could almost be a Great Debate about the pros/cons of poetry in general. Now to the issue at hand...a few thoughts I have.
Prose (free verse, or whatever you call it) has to me always seemed to be written in a way as to suggest how it should be read aloud. I used to hate free verse with a passion...then I read a poem in that style from a friend...the more I read it, the more the breaks made sense...as I would have paused had I been reciting it. True, it's not for everyone, and sometimes I think the writers get carried away, but I understand the validity of the breaks and spaces. We're so used to the written word, that some of the punctuation we use has lost it's emphasis. Commas are a perfect example...I've had proffesors from my speach classes that debated with me about the placement of my commas when I would hand my papers in....almost always, I'd have to actually read it to them..with the emphasis where I wanted it, for them to understand. Sake-- So you think that great artist/writers/poets/athletes/actors/etc. just spring out of their mothers naturally great at what they do?....I challenge you to name one person...anywhere...at any time that is/was considered great at what they do/did that didn't spend some time perfecting their abilities. Words are an expression of thought...and emotions....and shouldn't be limited to what you think is valid. If I play softball with my company, then I'm an athlete...I'm an amature athlete, but still an athlete. Perhaps you think that those people that are "professional" poets take offense at those of us that strive to express ourselves in the same medium. I write poems occasionally..usually to express some emotion..(i.e. death of a relative)...by taking the time to write down what I feel, I also leave something that I can look back on. To remmeber how I felt at that time. It seems to me that you are a lover of fine poety...much like some people are lovers of fine wines....and thats great, but something is keeping Bartles and James in business.... ------------------ I haven't lost my mind, I have a tape backup around somewhere.
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#27
10-12-1999, 11:41 AM
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Haiku: Recipe
steam-weeping windows kitchen smells pregnant cook pause sweet stirring in
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#28
10-12-1999, 02:35 PM
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#29
10-12-1999, 02:50 PM
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Great refrain
Quote:
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#30
10-12-1999, 03:00 PM
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Please see my thread "Beautiful.." in MPSIMS. I tear up every time I read those poems...of course I can hear them in my head with Cohen's gravelly voice ...I cant describe it.
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#31
10-12-1999, 03:03 PM
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This is the important bit:
Quote:
Practicing poetry is fine. Trying to get better is fine. Even just writing to express emotion or to vent is fine. Just keep it to yourself! You're right, Sake--putting up a web page of crappy first attempts is nothing more than electronic masturbation. -andros- ------------------ "Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!" Exceptions? None! -Doc Bronner
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#32
10-12-1999, 03:16 PM
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Woops! anders: agreeing with me - and over on the Rosenbaum thread I just accused you of lacking a brain altogether.
Chaulk it up to the duality of man. Next time, please summarily disagree with all of my posts so I can let the hatred slowly build into a mighty Tower of Babel which towers over the landscape of the petty and mundane only to rain terrible insults and crafty witticisms upon the ignorant, scrambling masses!
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#33
10-13-1999, 12:22 AM
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Atrael: I practiced drums for years before I became competent enough to play in front of a crowd.
Practice is essential for artistic development. What I didn't do, is practice for those first few years in front of people. I didn't place wave samples of my mediocre fills on the Internet for all to download and I sure as hell didn't consider myself a drummer until I had a command of the basic rudiments and started playing with bands writing original music. Poetry is no different. My first batch of poetry in high school was as bad as everyone else's. I didn't even think of poetry as something elevated until I won some poetry and short story contest the school was running. Only then did I take it seriously.
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#34
10-13-1999, 05:16 PM
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I think some of us are missing the point. The fact that a human being feels something that he/she HAS to express in some way OTHER than in nicely punctuated paragraphs and no run on sentences is the art. Joe Blow sees something so beautiful in the landscape or in some idea he has that he writes a terrible poem...THERES the art. Feelings experiences
And as far as Rhyme vs. Reason goes, I use Both. Sometimes i dont WANT to express my visions with meter and rhythm...sometimes my feelings are bent and misshapen therefore my poetry will be Asymmetrical..Its not about whether you liked my work or didnt like it.. the fact taht you read it is enough. If it makes you see SOMETHING ANYTHING in your minds eye...then it has served its purpose. But thats just me. The whole CONCEPT of creativity is NOT following rules. If every friggin poet used Iambic pentameter as the SOLE framework for his poem..then ANYONE could do it. Formulas and structures are great..but so is freedom to just dip your pen in the inkwell of your soul and FLING that stuff on the page... Do we need examples,class?
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#35
10-13-1999, 05:31 PM
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[sarcasm]
Yeah, look at all the people since Shakespeare who managed to write as well as he did. Since playing by the rules is formulaic and easy. [/sarcasm] Firstly, I agree that it's ok to throw out the rules, Brithael. But if you never play by the rules your rebellion loses its meaning. There's much more challenge in creating something within a framework. Splattering words onto paper is easy. Making iambic pentameter beautiful is not. Secondly, please correct me if I misunderstood, but it sounds like you're writing poetry specifically to be read and to evoke a response. Is an audience always required, or do you ever write for yourself? -andros- ------------------ "Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!" Exceptions? None! -Doc Bronner
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#36
10-13-1999, 09:05 PM
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Melatonin wrote:
Quote:
------------------ Quick-N-Dirty Aviation: Trading altitude for airspeed since 1992.
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#37
10-13-1999, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
You needn't rebel to create (although it often helps, 'tis true). At least two of the sources that wrote the bible were following explicitly the rules of the early Catholic Church - wouldn't you say they created something wonderful? Same thing with "creating" a baby. (Boy, don't I sound wholesome!) Within the bounds of tradition and laws one can still create.
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#38
10-13-1999, 09:42 PM
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A CAUTION TO EVERYBODY
Consider the auk; Becoming extinct because he forgot how to fly and could only walk. Consider man, who may well become extinct Because he forgot how to walk and learned how to fly before he thinked. -- Ogden Nash
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#40
10-14-1999, 06:27 AM
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Is it just me, or did Brithael just contribute a well thought out, well written coherent post?
Well done Brithael.
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#41
10-14-1999, 07:55 AM
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Sake Samurai
Member posted 10-13-1999 09:20 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The whole CONCEPT of creativity is NOT following rules -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, that's the whole CONCEPT of rebellion. You needn't rebel to create (although it often helps, 'tis true). At least two of the sources that wrote the bible were following explicitly the rules of the early Catholic Church - wouldn't you say they created something wonderful? Depends on what you mean by "wonderful"..If you mean as a guide to the human soul, and a referance to moral uprightness, then sure, I'll give you that one. If you're talking about a well written, stiring book, then no, they didn't create something wonderful. While there are parts of the Bible that are very well written, there are by far many more sections that are extreamly difficult just to read, much less be moved by. andros Member posted 10-13-1999 05:31 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [sarcasm] Yeah, look at all the people since Shakespeare who managed to write as well as he did. Since playing by the rules is formulaic and easy. [/sarcasm] Yeah, and a lot of his Sonnet's suck....And what makes you think he was playing by the rules then?....Hell, he might have been going against the type of writting style he had been taught....after all, we're teaching our children writing skills based on styles that were popular a couple hundred years ago....Just because he wrote great stuff, doesn't mean that his is the only style worthy of merit. As far as improving before you share, how do you know if your writting is imporving unless you get feedback?...Further, I know there is much ado sometimes about discovering a known writers earlier works....seeing how he developed, and matured as an artist. And lastly, if ya don't want to read it....don't. Just like if you don't like a particular author's writting style, you don't have to buy his book. If you don't like someone expressing poetry on their web page, hit that damn "back" button....I'm sure they won't miss you. ------------------ I haven't lost my mind, I have a tape backup around somewhere.
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#42
10-14-1999, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
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#43
10-14-1999, 08:25 AM
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Aren't the Bible and Qu'ran (in the original Hebrew, Greek, and Arabic) written in the form of poetry?
I don't know who is credited with the format of written prose, but I was under the impression that most literature in history was written as verse, and that rhyme patterns were not necessarily a primary concern.
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#44
10-14-1999, 10:14 AM
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Atrael: guess I touched a nerve. I certainly didn't mean to. I was directing my question mostly at Brithael.
But I'll ask you, then: Is showing off all you're interested in? Do you have to have people ooh and aah over your work to be validated as a person? Or can you be happy creating for yourself? -andros- ------------------ "Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!" Exceptions? None! -Doc Bronner
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#45
10-14-1999, 10:38 AM
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andros--
You see the obviouse flaw with that last statement don't you?...I'll take it in the spirit it was meant though. No, you don't have to have people ooo and ahhh over you...but if you are trying to improve your style, feedback is helpful. Perhaps these people just want to share something with others. If I write a poem about a loved ones death, and it helped me deal with the emotion that ensued, maybe those same words would help others deal with their pain. Would I do it?...nope...anything I write to express me emotions, I keep private....but if someone else want's to post it out there for everyone to read...more power to them. ------------------ I haven't lost my mind, I have a tape backup around somewhere.
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#46
10-14-1999, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
By no means is the whole bible written in verse, though. The majority (especially the Greek NT) is narrative prose. No one knows who the first writer of prose was, but one of the very first (perhaps the first) cohesive prose narratives (i.e., novel) was The Epic of Gilgamesh, an ancient Sumarian masterpiece written in cuneiform. This epic, incidently, has many included Sumarian myths which mirror and predate those told in the Hebrew bible. It really depends on the culture. Most of the early Greeks (from Homer to Socrates) wrote nothing down, while the earlier Indian (the sub-continent), Egyptian, and Sumerian cultures left extensive records.
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#47
10-14-1999, 08:51 PM
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Atrael, you're right--the only way to improve is to practice and receive feedback. I would add that the feedback should be from someone who knows quality, but otherwise, you're 100%. If someone wants to post their dreck, more power to them. It may, as you say, stimulate someone. It certainly does not mean I have to read the shit.
That said . . . no, I don't see the "obvious" flaw. Elucidate? -andros- ------------------ "Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!" Exceptions? None! -Doc Bronner
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#48
10-14-1999, 10:32 PM
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This is exactly why I don't hang out with POETS.
------------------ "ChrisCTP-...the sweetheart of the SDMB..." --Diane Chris' Homepage: Domestic Bliss
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#49
10-15-1999, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
------------------ I haven't lost my mind, I have a tape backup around somewhere.
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#50
10-15-1999, 08:29 AM
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Sake, would you post some of your poems so we can all see what is good poetry?
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