Is acknowledgement of a spirit reasonable?

In the interest of moving away from the Scientific Proof of Godthread and into something more on the lines of reason and logic (as metaphysics is not a science per Kant) I would like to continue the debate of “Is acknowledgement of a spirit reasonable?” on it’s own.

This is not a rock solid evidence debate as I don’t believe rock solid evidence exists for either a soul or God nor do I believe it ever will. Despite the lace of evidence I still have faith and this faith comes as much from reason as the dogmatics and beliefs of the human made and human interpreted tenets of religion.

This is simply a debate to decide if it is reasonable or not to acknowledge the existance of a soul. So on to it…


My arguement for the existance of a soul, as laid out in the Scientific Proof thread (and posited and refined in that thread)is:

Suppose in the future we figure out a way to map out all of the properties of a human; every amino acid in place to define DNA, every atom and sub-atomic particle in place to define the molecular structure of each and every substance in the body and every reaction in place (mechanical, chemical and electrical) to define the behaviors of each and every component of a person. We’re actually not too far away from that now.

Now suppose that we can take all of this data and store it in a computer as information, a full map of an individual at one point in time defined and filed. Suppose we can transmit this information to another computer a distance away that send the information to some sort of advanced sub-atomic 3D extruder that can reassemble all of the information bit by bit into a perfect replication of an individual. All the atoms and particles are there, all the molecules are there, all the DNA is there and every reaction that was taking place at the moment of definition is reproduced and continues forward from that moment.

From there I present two scenarios.

First, imagine that the person being mapped out is atomically deconstructed as the data are collected. This data is transferred to the receiving station and the person is atomically reconstructed there. My question is - is that the same person? Did we just pass a person through a Star Trek style transporter and beam them at the speed of light to, say, the moon in about 7 seconds? What is the difference between the Nathan that steps onto the transporter pad, is mapped out, deconstructed and broadcast and the Nathan that steps off of the distant transporter fully reconstructed and functional?

Second, imagine the entire scenario above only this time the original subject is not deconstructed - just mapped out, broadcast and reconstructed. Is there a difference between the reconstructed Nathan in the first and second scenario? Is there a difference between the original Nathan and the reconstructed Nathan a distance away? Is there a paradox of co-existance or is it just a normal effect? Is there anything in the original Nathan that cannot be measured, analysed, mapped out and reproduced?

My position is, no matter if the first subject is destroyed or not, the two individuals are two seperate individuals who will interact with their environment individually based on the needs and properties of that environment. It seems to me to be unreasonable to claim that they are the same person if they can observe each other individually. Even if the first subject is destroyed, the conditions that created the second subject are exactly the same. It seems insane to hold the position that doing the exact same thing the exact same way with the exact same processes and materials will produce two different results so the second individual is exactly the same in both scenarios.

From a social point of view and a functional point of view the two subjects are interchangable; reconstructed Nathan on the moon will be, to all outside observers, exactly the same as deconstructed Nathan on the Earth, my wife won’t know the difference. But from an individual point of view, if two individuals can observe each other then they are either different individuals or there is a paradox of duality in play. Since we are whole individuals and not nutrinos or other particles that seem to exibit duality I find it entirely reasonable to posit the two individuals are, in fact, different individuals.

If they are different individuals but 100% identical in every physical manifestation there that difference must not be physical. Whatever exists in each of us that cannot be measured or analyzed, whatever exists beyond our physical and chemical selves, whatever makes us an individual despite of however many exact duplicates we replicate, that is our individual metaphysical properties. That is what I think a soul is and that is my arguement.


On a more personal note, about my individual beliefs - yes, I purport to be a Christian, but this is largely a choice of convenience by living in a western society. If we get right down to brass tacks I suppose I would more accurately be described as a Unitarian. All cultures made up mythologies and legends as a way to come to terms with the difference between what they could explain and what they could not explain. In this POV it is concevable that the Abrahamic concept of Jehovah, the Vedic concept of Brama, the pagan concept of Thor or Thoth-amon and the Flying Spaghetti Monster are all different observations and attemts to come to terms with the physical and metaphysical worlds. I am a Christian because I respect and admire the teachings of Christ, not because I follow any church that has risen up in His name since His death.

The Jains have an interesting concept called Anekantavada and a parable about some blind men and an elephantthat I find compelling. I recommend an open minded reading of it.


With all that out of the way I present the debate and the question of is it within reason to acknowledge the existance of a soul. I’m looking for interesting input and points of view from all sides of what I have presented here.

So? Whadda’ ya think?

I agree completely - they are now separate individuals.

It seems like you’ve proven here that there is no soul. How on earth do you get from what you’ve said here, to somehow still believing in dualism - that both matter and spirit exist?

You’ve assembled material stuff, and built a person. At no point in your assembly process did you put a “soul” in there, it’s all material.

Right. And any differences between, as the OP seems to half-acknowledge, are going to come from the different experiences the individuals have. I don’t see where a spirit enters into the equation here.

Granting your stipulation that they are, at the moment of transmission, different individuals*, it follows that there is a physical difference between them. To wit, they are at different physical locations. So no soul is needed to explain what makes them different.

-FrL-

*I don’t grant this, btw, except for the sake of argument. I think that (at the moment of transmission at least) they are the same person.

So, if they are seperate individuals then, as per the first scenario with the deconstruction of the original subject, the individual that stepped into the transporter on Earth is not the same individual that stepped off of the transporter on the Moon. The first individual is dead and the second individual resumes activities exactly as the first individual would have.

But what is the difference between the two individuals? What could not be measured and replicated? No, at no point did the process involve the transfer and inserting of a soul because the arguement is positioned against the arguement that everything that we are is a lot of physical, chemical (which cause most of the physical) and electrical (which cause most of the chemical) reactions that exist within the observable world.

Granted there are an abundance of these reactions that drive our day to day lives. But material is replicable, reactions are reproducable. What I’m positioning is, what differientiates us but is not replicable or reproducable? What part of individual A is aware that he is individual A and not individual B? What part of individual A is self aware of his own existance? If that is a reproducable reaction caused by replicable componants then why was it not reproduced in individual B? What part of individual B is self aware et. al.?

The difference that one is made of different atoms in a different location.

Nope.

Not that anyone has ever shown. And there’s no “paradox” involved.

Not really; they WERE the same person, but became separate as they diverged. And they are still the same person in a sense; rather like I am the same person as the Der Trihs who existed yesterday or last year. I too have changed from that past self; just not in two directions since there’s only one of me.

Um, no. What makes them different is that they will have different experiences and thoughts since the duplication; and that one is here, and the other there. There’s nothing metaphysical involved. I’d also like to point out that you could use your same argument to claim that a rock run through the transporter has a soul.

Not until someone provides evidence of one. At the present, no one’s even come up with evidence that one is possible, much less real.

Focusing on just the moment of transmission, you say that at that moment they are the same person. To clairify, what location in space does this single person occupy? Looking at the deconstruct / reconstruct scene the single person could, in theory, occupy the beam transmitting from one location to the other. But as I put forth, the end result is the same, the beam is the same, in the non-deconstruct / reconstruct scene, at the moment of transmission, the individual would occupy both the beam and the transmitter pad. One person, one moment, two locations.

Either that or the occupant of the beam itself in raw data form is already a different person and there are two people in two locations at one moment. This sounds more reasonable to me.

One’s here; one’s there. And if they both exist for any time, they diverge.

Nothing, as far as the evidence goes.

The part that can see individual B over there drinking coffee.

The brain, or at least part of it. They’d be self aware because that’s a human brain function, duplicated like everything else.

It seems to me that every minute, you’re a new person in a sense. The feeling of continuity is a delusion favored by evolutionary processes. People who have such a feeling are a lot more likely to save food for the winter.

That said, I would not patronize a transporter.

So time is required for divergance? At the moment the replication is complete and jump started, if time were to freeze, would they be the same?

No, I don’t suppose they would. Even given an instantanious scan process and an instantanious reconstruction process, both of these seem unreasonable, there is the time of transmission. Unless the scan / transmission / reconstruction time could be reduced to zero there is no point in time where the information is current.

Kant laid out the thought that there never has been and never will be evidence for the metaphysical. Yes, it’s apologetic, but by definition there will never be any evidence for anything supernatural.

That reminds me, individual A needs to go refill his cup. Probably time for a Winston too.

As mentioned above, since it is unreasonable to define a concurrent form within a single moment in time I suppose the difference in brain function regarding self awareness is, initially and within one moment, still fundamentally different as the data form is still obsolete in relation to the original form.

So here’s a question. Say this transporter exists. Would you try it? If it malfunctions and does not deconstruct the original, as the original would you be willing to step into the atom smasher and stop existing knowing that you really do still exist up on the moon’s transporter pad?

Why not?

Your argument can apply to anything. Say you put an inanimate wooden block on your transporter. Now, you have two identical wooden blocks. Are they the same? Well, no, in the sense that they’re made of different particles and after the duplication, and modifications made to one will not be reflected in the other. Does that mean that there’s some non-physical component to the blocks that wasn’t copied?

Yes, but blocks and rocks are not self aware. As I recall we humans are rare in the animal kingdom because of our ability to be self aware.

Just cryogenically freeze the subject; that might well be necessary anyway, to keep the processes of the brain from getting ahead of your scanning.

And once the transmission is made; if the original subject is alive and aware that’s when the divergence starts. Even if it takes years for the transmission to arrive somewhere.

That’s because “the supernatural” is, by nature, nonsense. That’s the whole reason for denying that evidence matters; so claims can be made without evidence being required. If there were actual, valid reasons to believe in the supernatural people wouldn’t be so hot to deny the validity of evidence; they do so, because they are wrong.

I’m not sure what you are trying to say; but you could freeze the brain or use a scanning method fast enough that the brain doesn’t change significantly before you are done.

If it was the destroy and transmit one, yes; if it was the duplicating version, no. My life has room only for one me.

Now, another version would be one that copied you as in your second version; then after you are done on the Moon or wherever a scan-and-destroy version is used on both versions of me, and one body is materialized with a single mind with both sets of memories via a merge program. That too, would be the same person in my opinion.

So what ? You have a rock; you duplicate it; you have two duplicate rocks. you have a self aware person; you duplicate them; you have two duplicate self aware people.There’s nothing mystical about self awareness.

You make an assumption in your initial scenario that practically negates the need for a soul. If the human body is mapped out to the point where every single function of both mind and body can be traced to physical causes, then there is no need for a soul. If the soul has anything at all to do with the person, then we won’t be able to map every single function to physical causes, something will be caused by the soul. This would be evidence of a soul. If not, and the soul has no effect on the human body whatsoever, it isn’t necessary and can be said to not exist.

Isn’t this is the same thing as saying ‘There is nothing supernatural’? As long as something interacts with this universe in any way, we can have evidence for it. If something doesn’t interact in any way at all, from the point of view of this universe, does it exist?

They would, provided that neither of them had any experiences before time froze, including opening their eyes. As soon as one of them has a different experience from the other, they are different people. Seeing as how they are in different places, diverging experiences are inevitable once time starts to pass for them.

I wouldn’t try it for a while, based solely on my observations of how well new technology works when released to the public.

“Yeah, I tried the beta version of the Transporter. Wanna see the jug where I keep my original internal organs ?”

Pondering…
Drinking the aformentioned coffee…
Also enjoying the Winston…

I’ll think on this for a while.

Well I didn’t really want to argue about whether they’re the same person or not–as I said, I was granting your stipulation that they are two different people.

Even granting they are different people, it doesn’t follow that they have a soul. You argued that some non-physical factor must account for their difference because there is no physical difference. But I am arguing there is a physical difference between them–their location–and hence no non-physical factor needs to be adduced.

But as to this other argument about whether they are the same person or not, I think they are one person at one time in two different locations.

Very soon afterwards, (I think but am not sure), they start to become two different people.

-FrL-

Even if you could prove a soul comprises particles of matter, you would still have to prove that it has consciousness or some quality that separates it from a kidney or a thigh bone. The mere existence of a soul isn’t enough. It has to do tricks, too.