Hey, “world’s smartest human”…I was wondering when you were going to mention anything about fetal neocortical development…in Carl Sagan’s book, (you know, that other smart human) ‘Dragons of Eden’, he addresses this issue far better than you. If anything distinguishes humans from other species, it is that wrinkly part of our brain called a neocortex which starts to form in a human fetus about at the end of the second trimester or the beginning of the third. Therefore, any woman on the ball enough to terminate a pregnancy in the first trimester is pulling the plug on a life form about as sophisticated as a sea monkey. Or were you simply not aware of this? I thought for sure you might mention it, but no…
Here at the SDMB, it’s policy to include a link to the article in question. Just paste in the URL, like this: When does human life begin (revisited)? - The Straight Dope
Anyways, You did notice that this is a continuation of a previous article, right? I think the original made most of the points you did. And I’m not sure this one didn’t either. Cecil’s point of view is that one cannot claim a fetus is a person until it shows brain activity: which, as you point out, is around 24 weeks (end of the second trimester).
The Master is human, and therefore not perfect, and I do think he should have linked to his old column. So I understand if you hadn’t read it. I find it difficult to find on search. Here’s another link, if you missed the inline link above:
Don’t insult my intelligence, Big T. Of course i am aware of what article i am responding to, which, interestingly enough, the original that started this mess seems to have been dropped from the archives! In the original article, Cecil states that human life begins at conception, period. I’m just trying to dispel a bit of ignorance here, a bit of ignorance from a so-called expert who just set back feminism a notch or two. I wonder that “the master” himself does not respond to this query of mine, in the interests of dispelling ignorance. Carl Sagan’s article on the subject was just so much more sensitive, fair, balanced, AND scientific. I wonder what’s going on here.
What sort of response were you expecting? As has already been mentioned, I talked about fetal brain development in my original column. Looking at your OP I don’t see that you raise any other substantive issues.
Incidentally, a link to the first column was included in the second - you’ll see it if you roll your mouse over the date in the first few lines of the question. We have an upgrade that should go through in a day or two; after that embedded links will show up in color.
You missed the point that it doesn’t matter when life begins. You seem to think that life and and the development of the neocortex are the same thing. They are not. We kill living organisms all the time, the ones with neocortexes we try to keep alive.
Somewhat tangential to the OP, may I ask what has become of the Friendship Request I sent to you on 24 September?
Cecil, you not only danced around my point, you are being flippant about an issue that is of utmost importance to women’s basic rights. I believe I’m being clear enough for someone who considers himself the world’s smartest human. What did I expect? Well, only a bit more objectivity and professionalism. If I’m not making myself clear, here is the copy of a letter i sent to you via e-mail, and i think you should address it in print, because murder is a serious issue…
Dear Straight Dope,
If human life begins at conception, as you stated in your inflammatory article, does that make me a murderess who should be hauled off to prison? Carl Sagan, in his book; 'Dragons of Eden, addresses this dilemma much more scientifically (and with more sensitivity) than you. In it, he states that if we are going to debate when human life begins, we ought to take into consideration which part of the brain it is which makes us uniquely human, ie; the wrinkly neocortex, which develops at around the third trimester of pregnancy. In the first trimester, the fetal brain is very basic, no more developed than that of a brine shrimp, otherwise known as a sea monkey, or ‘fish food.’ If human life begins at conception, as you state, then I have murdered a human being when i took that emergency 'morning-after pill, instead of a form of life on the level of algae. In the interests of fighting ignorance, will you please do your homework before you sit in the pope’s chair and make ‘expert’ pronouncements in papers all over this nation? I think you actually owe it to the women of America to have the guts to reply to this in print. And please, have the decency not to accuse ME of ‘yammering.’
-Pissed Off Woman
The Perfect Master don’t need no steenkin’ friends!
I thought it was a bit sad that he has not yet made any friends, rather than having80,852 of us, so I friended him.
Now, I shall prepare to be ignored.
[/hijack]
Given that Cecil also quite clearly mentioned, in that same article, that a logical milestone for the beginning of life is at the beginning of brain activity (about 25 weeks after conception), I have to state a couple of things:
-
You probably should have gone ahead and read the whole article
-
You are being more than a little overly shrill here
The zygote you killed was alive, and was human. (Of course, so was my appendix before it was removed.)
It was not, of course, a human – a sentient human lifeform. Lacked that wrinkly thing. It didn’t have “personhood”, which both you and Cecil think should be related to neocortical development.
You seem to be getting pissed off at something we call an Enormous Straw Man, to the point where you’re attacking somebody who agrees with you. Of course, if your name actually is Pissed Off Woman, that may just be your lot in life.
Moderator interjects:
HEY!!! Baldwin and bmoreluv, please remember that personal insults are NOT permitted in this forum.
bmoreluv, welcome to the Straight Dope Message Board, we’re glad to have you with us. And your comments have got a response from Cecil himself (a rare phenomenon). However, you might want to take a moment to read our rules. Please note the Registration Agreement, this thread on Rules and this thread on Etiquette. We are not like other message boards in many way, and one of them is that personal insults are NOT permitted. Baldwin, you’ve been around long enough to know that. Please, everyone: let’s maintain civil and polite discourse.
Cecil said in his article: “I advocated a different view: bestow personhood on the fetus at the point at which brain function starts.”
But he also said: “Human life begins at conception.”
He should have said: “Life begins at conception. Human life begins at the point at which brain function starts.”
Boys, boys, this IS an inflammatory issue. A very fine point at which a woman has to make the choice between being a responsible human being or a heartless murderer. And boys, words like ‘yammering’ and ‘shrill’ are insults traditionally aimed at women. Is it only alright then, for you boys to throw insults? Double standard. There is a very good reason you have pissed off a lot of women this week.
Also, at no time did i ever resort to insults. Please do not include me in your reprimand.
Please read the articles more closely. There are two:
I think you’ll find we agree. As for the rest of you, I’ve befriended you all.
…
Why does Cecil have to play by your definitions? Look what he wrote:
He obviously meant that ending human life is not always wrong, but that taking the life of a person is.
Cecil used the term human life to note that (1) the fetus is alive and (2) it is a human life form. That is not the same as saying that it is a person deserving the protections of the law or any other moral authority.
If you have your own definitions of human life, life, or personhood, that’s fine, but it doesn’t change the fact that Cecil holds virtually the exact same position that you do.
Oh, alright. I stand corrected. But moderator…I didn’t see that Baldwin was resorting to insults either, so why did you reprimand us?
Oh, geez. :smack: I guess I’ve officially slotted myself as a Dipstick. Sorry, Cecil. Perhaps you should indeed enjoy the status of Smart Human. I really do agree with you after all, it was your tone which waved the red flag in front of my bull- dogma, a problem which besets many a marriage nowadays, even though (thankfully) we remain strangers. Ouch.
Well, if I had insulted anybody, that would make sense.
Bmoreluv, no insult was intended, and I’m impressed by your last post. You see, we’re constantly seeing guests here who start a thread because they’re angry about something – and often never post again. You’ve not only stayed to respond, but you’ve acknowledged having made a mistake about something, which is hard to do. I hope you stick around.
Please, look around the SDMB; just about anything you might be interested in, there’s probably somebody who wants to talk about it.
Baldwin, thanks for being grand. You cannot imagine my embarrassment. Apologies to you too, Big T. You did not insult my intelligence, you were just trying to help. Pardon me. I guess i’m more of a ‘pissed-off-woman’ than i thought!