What do kids play with to learn programming

[Grey]

I use to hang out at the back of Radio Shack and bang out BASIC programs. It was relatively easy and I don't remember having a hard time learning the basic flow (sequential + goto).

But I have no idea what a kids would play with today. My son is 8 and starting to want to use the computer as opposed to play on it which is nice. But I need ideas as to what to give him.

C/C++ or C# seem way to technical and I'm not sure JAVA or Python would work. He's pretty visual - is there a graphical kids language?

[ultrafilter]

I hear good things about Alice, although it is somewhat targeted at girls. Still, it's probably worth checking out.

[Hockey Monkey]

Originally Posted by ultrafilter

I hear good things about Alice, although it is somewhat targeted at girls. Still, it's probably worth checking out.

Exactly what I was going to suggest.

[Shagnasty]

I think it is the Commodore 64 and always was. That is how I learned my career and I am 35 now. Come to think of it, I have no idea how kids learn it these days. I still have a Commodore 64 emulator on my computer that teaches my young daughters some of these concepts. I specialize in Oracle software now but there is no chance that a 6 year old can pick that up.

[seodoa]

I remember the hours I would spend as a tyke experimenting with Applesoft BASIC on our family's Apple IIc. I had a floppy disk of nothing but goofy programs and games that I would make. Later, when we got a Mac, I started using Hypercard (and later HyperStudio [it had color!]) to make all sorts of graphical "programs."

ETA: Logo is a tried-and-true educational tool still available.

[beowulff]

There are free BASICs out there.
Myself, I've mostly given up writing in C for OS X - I just use RealBasic, and I can have a working App in an hour.

[seodoa]

REALbasic is nice, but I think of all the suggestions, including my own, Alice is the best as far as educational programming languages. Logo gets pretty boring fast, HyperStudio costs money (and seems to have gotten a little more complicated since when I first used it), and HyperCard is ancient, not free, no longer supported, and AFAIK, Mac-only.

(I didn't even know about Alice before this thread. I might have to download it and play around )

[even sven]

It's not really programming, but I can amuse myself for hours with the RPG Maker programs.

[seodoa]

Originally Posted by even sven

It's not really programming, but I can amuse myself for hours with the RPG Maker programs.

There was a shareware RPG made for the Mac (and I believe later released for Windows) that also had a design program allowing one to craft their own games. The scripting language was easy-to-use yet still allowed for significant depth. I just wish I could remember what the name was...

[Joey P]

My vote would be for learning BASIC. While I never branched out in other languages as far as I did in BASIC (except Assembly, but that's a different animal), learning BASIC kinda sets the groundwork for other languages. It gives you a good feel for how things should flow and kinda teaches you the basic problem solving methods that would carry over into other languages.

But that was a long time ago.

Maybe HTML

[placebo]

Something like Scratch or Alice should be more accessible than Basic, but if you insist on the latter, try Small Basic.

[FlyingRamenMonster]

Game Maker used to be nice until it got bought up by Yoyo Games. I think Game Maker 6 is still free though. I have rather fond memories of it, since I played with it a lot as a kid. It uses its own language, GML. You don't have to actually write any code to make a game, but it gets you thinking systematically. And eventually you probably will code at least a little, because you can't do any *really* cool stuff without it.

[Grey]

Scratch and Alice look very interesting. I think I'll try Alice first and see how he likes making "stories" with it.

Heck I want to try it.

[Marienee]

Thanks for posting this question! I can't wait to show these to Thing One and Thing Two.

[Henrichek]

I tried Lego Mindstorms once, a programmable Lego unit that came with a set of sensors and outputs for engine control and so on. It came with some programming software where it was programmed by connecting graphical nodes representing conditionals and loops and so on. It's pretty much the graphical programming you seem to ask for. I think the program was called RoboLab. It was trivial to make a Lego car follow a line on the floor for example, by using the light sensor inputs together with a loop and a couple conditionals to control the left and right engines to turn the vehicle.

Starting and stopping engines, delays, sensor inputs, conditionals and everything is represented by nodes that are connected by lines to form the program flow. Conditionals will branch into two lines, each representing what to do depending on the input to the conditional. It's quite neat.

[chrisk]

If the wee one is interested in the web at all, then a bare bones hosted page and some library books/online tutorials can probably go a long way. Starting with HTML, (not really programming, but it can be fun to 'play around in' and get the hang of using tags to get the page to 'do something') then adding javascript, and maybe progressing to PHP or something like that if it's available.

[ftg]

My kids also went down the webpage, javascript, etc. path. They really got into Flash programming. (Now one of them is enough of a "Ruby on rails" expert that his bosses want to set him up with his own company. So it doesn't really matter how low you start. Having fun doing it is the key.)

[Grey]

That's what I'm hoping for. Alice looks very nice in that he should be able to see the linkage between building a story (sequential) with objects and a structured format.

Just want to give him the chance to start to like it and then see what happens.

[ultrafilter]

Originally Posted by Henrichek

I tried Lego Mindstorms once, a programmable Lego unit that came with a set of sensors and outputs for engine control and so on. It came with some programming software where it was programmed by connecting graphical nodes representing conditionals and loops and so on. It's pretty much the graphical programming you seem to ask for. I think the program was called RoboLab. It was trivial to make a Lego car follow a line on the floor for example, by using the light sensor inputs together with a loop and a couple conditionals to control the left and right engines to turn the vehicle.

Starting and stopping engines, delays, sensor inputs, conditionals and everything is represented by nodes that are connected by lines to form the program flow. Conditionals will branch into two lines, each representing what to do depending on the input to the conditional. It's quite neat.

I would pretty enthusiastically recommend Mindstorms if the kid in the OP were a few years older, but eight strikes me as too young. Something to keep in mind as a 10th or 11th birthday present.

[Grey]

Mentally I'm the right age. Notes have been passed to Lady Grey.

[Absolute]

I started playing with BASIC on an old Apple II in 4th grade. I think I must have been around 8.

An Apple II is simple enough that a kid can understand and master all of it. It was a real computer, that people actually used. And BASIC is a real programming language, not some toy with cutesy graphics and an emphasis on "Telling stories" and "interactions between characters". My eight-year-old self wouldn't have given a crap about that - I thought BASIC was great because I knew it was close to how computers actually worked.

There were things like ALICE available back then, but I was pretty wary of things "For Kids!" when I was a kid.

I am a very visual person too.

[Spectralist]

I started learning programming with the scripting languages in Starcraft and Warcraft 3's level editors. Great way to get something up and going quickly and being able to share it with friends helps with keeping yourself motivated.

Also learning how to use cheat-search devices and programs(such as Cheat Engine) helped me learn how games(and by extension other programs) stored & manipulated information.

And learning to program my TI-83 calculator helped pass the time in math class at school.

When i decided to try learning "real" programming i bought a number of books, but Visual Basic .net Step by Step by Michael Halvorson was by far the best.

HTML, RPG maker, and, if it's still around, hypercard are all great suggestions as well.

One thing that really set me back when i was younger was trying to teach myself C++. Not because it's too hard or anything but because all books/tutorials i could find start it off with console programming. And my pre-teen mind couldn't understand how this simple dos-like stuff was supposed to be relevant to modern computing so i quickly gave it up. I guess what i'm trying to say is whatever you do try to keep it relevant to what he uses the computer for. If he plays games try to teach him with simple games-oriented programming. If he browses the web a lot try to teach him to make web pages. etc.

[Reply]

I used to play a lot of computer games as a kid, and I naturally became curious about how they were made. Fortunately, many games were modifiable in some way: Some included map-making software for you to make new levels, some let you write scripts to change the gameplay, some let you outright program new additions to it.

On the simple side, Warcraft 3 has an excellent scenario editor that combine level design (paint your own battlefield, pretty much) with a very easy to use scripting language that's mainly just a series of drop-down boxes (when Hero A meets monster Y, check to see if he has the Sword of Uber Monster Slaying, and if so, make monster flee). It's a great learning environment to teach the basics of programming logic -- the language won't translate to any major programming language, but the underlying principles ought to.

Other games that come to mind include Starsiege: Tribes 1 and 2, Civilization 2 to 4, the Quake series, the Half-Life series, the Unreal series, Second Life, dot dot dot.

Oh, and coincidentally, a similar thread was started on Slashdot (a popular tech blog) today: Best Introduction To Programming For Bright 11-14-Year-Olds?. It currently has over 800 replies; if that's too many, you can filter them by a "threshold" to find the highest-rated ones.

[Spectralist]

Originally Posted by 404 Clue Not Found

On the simple side, Warcraft 3 has an excellent scenario editor that lets combine level design (paint your own battlefield, pretty much) with a very easy to use scripting language that's mainly just a series of drop-down boxes (when Hero A meets monster Y, check to see if he has the Sword of Uber Monster Slaying, and if so, make monster flee). It's a great learning environment to teach the basics of programming logic -- the language won't translate to any major programming language, but the underlying principles ought to.

You can also convert the GUI language to a text language called JASS that isn't too dissimilar to java(or so i'm told, i've never used java) and allows levels of customization much greater than the GUI language. Which makes it the perfect choice in my opinion. You start off with the GUI and when you eventually run into something you cant do in that you start learning JASS.

[Reply]

Originally Posted by Spectralist

You can also convert the GUI language to a text language called JASS that isn't too dissimilar to java(or so i'm told, i've never used java) and allows levels of customization much greater than the GUI language. Which makes it the perfect choice in my opinion. You start off with the GUI and when you eventually run into something you cant do in that you start learning JASS.

Oh, neat! I didn't know that.

[Earthworm Jim]

The Game Makers Apprentice has a lot of good reviews. I've played with Game Maker a little before, and it seems like a nice easy transition. I ordered a copy for my kid today.

[Grey]

Originally Posted by 404 Clue Not Found

Oh, and coincidentally, a similar thread was started on Slashdot (a popular tech blog) today: Best Introduction To Programming For Bright 11-14-Year-Olds?. It currently has over 800 replies; if that's too many, you can filter them by a "threshold" to find the highest-rated ones.

Saw that this morning and laughed. I'm never actually ahead of the curve but I try.