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  #1  
Old 12-15-2008, 08:04 PM
Freudian Slit Freudian Slit is online now
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Manipulative and/or not quite consensual sex but not rape?

Inspired by this thread on rape. At one point in the thread, Kobal2 makes an interesting point when it comes to rape/consent.

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Originally Posted by Freudian Slit View Post
I feel like I've had sex under situations where I didn't want to (or in some cases, really didn't want to), but I still consented. But in one of those cases, I'd just refer to it as manipulation/coercion, but definitely not rape. I felt really bad afterwards, maybe in some ways "violated," but legally and practically, what happened to me wasn't rape since I did consent.
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Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
But how can it be consent if you don't want to ?
Not in the legal sense of consent I mean. I'm sure there's no legal way to go at it, at least not in a practical sense, it would be too easy to argue "I said yes but I meant no" in court. But then, what's ethical and what's legal aren't the same. Just because it's legal doesn't make something right (and vice versa).

The fact that the coercer didn't use bodily harm but emotional or chemical means as his leverage for coercion doesn't change the fact that coercion happened. In a sense it could even be worse, in that... well... you did say yes, didn't you ? It's all your fault, you made the choice, you shouldn't have drunk that much, you've got all the guilt etc... whereas you can rationalize a gunpoint rape by not having any choice in the matter, other than dying that is.
So, I thought I'd open this up--have you guys had experiences that wouldn't legally be rape but that left you feeling violated? Or that were technically consensual but weren't quite on the up and up?

In my case that I mentioned in that thread, I did say yes, but it was after about ten minutes of badgering, and I stopped the sex midway through (yeah, that bad). I felt pretty bad about it the next day, and it still leaves me feeling really shitty.

The only other experience where consent was sort of not entirely there was going to bed with another guy, when he was too sleepy to have sex that night, so he woke me up the next day wanting to screw. Since I'd taken a couple of sleeping pills the night before, I was pretty out of it, so I said yes, but was very quiet/sleepy during the act. Sort of weird, but again, not rape.

Have you guys experienced stuff like this?
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  #2  
Old 12-15-2008, 08:38 PM
seodoa seodoa is offline
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Yes, while in an (emotionally and physically) abusive relationship that lasted for six months. I was dumb enough to move in with him, too. I would dread the time he got off work.

Last edited by seodoa; 12-15-2008 at 08:38 PM..
  #3  
Old 12-15-2008, 08:44 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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When I was 17 and dating my first actual boyfriend since junior high, it was definitely an experience of discovering lust for the first time, and I was also just discovering I had PTSD from past abuse, and I really rushed into things. We didn't have intercourse, but we did... other things. And for the first week or so it felt awesome, but then it stopped feeling good, and I felt like I was being used, and it was a really negative thing for me. I would feel very ashamed afterward. He was extremely emotionally manipulative and he was also a blatant liar. He lied to me about having been sexually abused so that I would feel close enough to him to have sex with him. I never really felt like I could say no. Not because he threatened me, but because it's a problem I have in general. I'm afraid if I say ''no,'' one of two things will happen. Either he will stop loving me, or he will not care that I don't want to and do it anyway.

I should have put a stop to it a lot sooner than I did, but we kept having a relationship for 3 months. That was my first consensual sexual experience and I wish I had the presence of mind at the time to say ''no,'' but I had run away from home to live with my aunt so I had perfect freedom. I was a newly emancipated minor, I was working full time while attending high school and I was just too overwhelmed emotionally to fight back. I didn't break up with him until he later got a little violent with me. For some reason the violence was not something I was willing to tolerate.

I've never allowed myself to be in that kind of relationship again. He was young and stupid and just like any other teenage boy, so I don't really blame him and I can't lie and say I didn't consent. I absolutely consented. I just shouldn't have. It made things a lot more complicated when I met my husband, but fortunately he's a very patient man.

Last edited by Spice Weasel; 12-15-2008 at 08:47 PM..
  #4  
Old 12-15-2008, 08:56 PM
Nzinga, Seated Nzinga, Seated is offline
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I am so glad that someone made a thread about this, because I have been saying I'm going to for a long time, and I haven't felt like putting it together.

I know a woman who is a radical feminist. I mean, radical. I have allowed her to pull me a bit closer to feminism with every well laid argument she has laid down.

But there is one topic of conversation that she knows I always resist fiercely on. She believes that it is rape even if the guy conjoles and repeatedly asks the girl, after she says no.

When I admitted to her that I have often done the 'say no, at first, mean yes' bit, she harshly admonished me for playing that game, and said that I only play it because I subconciously believe that men are the one that rightfully own my body.

We are going to be at odds on this one forever, but I have always wondered what some female dopers would think of that position.

Obviously, I think it is not rape, or any variation, just because a guy repeatedly asks a girl for sex who has said no.
  #5  
Old 12-15-2008, 09:47 PM
Lavender Falcon Lavender Falcon is offline
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I briefly dated a guy who did that. And no, I didn't consider it rape. I considered it part of the general emotional neglect and abuse that caused me to get the heck away from him within a couple of months. He stalked me for a while, too, after I left him.

I suppose the morning I woke up because he was going into me even though I was sleeping could techincally be called rape, since I wasn't awake to consent. But when I woke up and pushed him away, he stopped. It's just that I got so tired of constantly having to say no, and having sex with him was physically painful. He would go on and on and I would hurt, and I'd tell him to stop, and he'd keep pushing me to keep going. Finally, I'd literally kick him off of me and he'd stop. He really didn't give a shit about whether I was enoying the sex or not. It was all about him.

It was a very damaging relationship, and the poor guy I dated next had to be very patient with me at first--I'd sometimes cringe when he touched me. But overall, I just saw it as a stupid dating mistake that landed me with a selfish and manipulative asshole. I'd certainly never end up with someone like that again. I'd pick up on the charming pushiness he used when he first met me as a huge warning sign.

As for the guy I ended up with after him, the sex with him was so damn good that it reinforced to me what a loser the other guy had been. He actually cared about how I felt and wouldn't push me if I said no. Once I trusted him, which only took a couple of months, I don't think I ever said no to him. I didn't want to. Quite the contrary, and I did my share of initiating.
  #6  
Old 12-15-2008, 09:48 PM
Freudian Slit Freudian Slit is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nzinga, Seated View Post
I know a woman who is a radical feminist. I mean, radical. I have allowed her to pull me a bit closer to feminism with every well laid argument she has laid down.

But there is one topic of conversation that she knows I always resist fiercely on. She believes that it is rape even if the guy conjoles and repeatedly asks the girl, after she says no.
I think it often depends. Sometimes it can be part of the "courtship ritual" if you will. And other times, it can be really sleazy and creepy. I definitely experienced it as sleazy and coercive, but not as rape when it happened to me. I've heard of anti-rape/sexual assault t-shirts that say things like, "No doesn't mean ask again in five minutes," and while I don't think that's necessarily rape, after a while I think it can get weird. Like I felt like I gave in because my defenses had been worn down. Same guy also had a history of manipulating/using my insecurities about sex as put downs a lot, but it's the kind of thing I was too naive to see at the time.
  #7  
Old 12-15-2008, 10:42 PM
Buckler of Swashing Buckler of Swashing is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nzinga, Seated View Post

But there is one topic of conversation that she knows I always resist fiercely on. She believes that it is rape even if the guy conjoles and repeatedly asks the girl, after she says no.

When I admitted to her that I have often done the 'say no, at first, mean yes' bit, she harshly admonished me for playing that game, and said that I only play it because I subconciously believe that men are the one that rightfully own my body.

We are going to be at odds on this one forever, but I have always wondered what some female dopers would think of that position.
I certainly don't believe that what you describe constitutes rape on the face of it, though I do believe that it's the type of thing that can only be judged by individual circumstances. As others have posted, there are circumstances where a technique by which someone eventually persuaded their partner to change a 'no' to a 'yes' amounted to or was part of an episode of emotional abuse and was intended to be manipulative. I am not sure if that is rape, but I can't think of it as 'right', even if legal.

On the other hand, as you describe, the 'game' of saying no but fully intending to allow yourself to be persuaded into a yes is part-and-parcel of sexual relationships for some people - a bit of verbal foreplay, maybe - and these can be harmless provided that both parties understand what's going on.

Personally, I do not 'say no at first but mean yes' because I find it a little on the silly side, but I do not believe that women who do that do so because of a subconscious belief that men own their bodies . This is the type of 'feminism' that makes things difficult for more reasonable feminists.
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  #8  
Old 12-15-2008, 11:03 PM
phouka phouka is offline
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The only time I've done the "no . . . okay, fine, I guess, yes. . . " I regretted it in short order. I wish I'd had the backbone to say no to him, even though I wanted to have sex - just not with him.

We are supposed to be adults. That means taking responsibility for our decisions, not blaming others, behaving in a mature manner, and treating others the way we would like to be treated. Trouble is, if one or more of those factors is missing from the person we're with, we end up being used, manipulated, and regretful.

I chalk it up to life lessons learned. I understand a lot more now why society was previously so restrictive. It was to protect people like me. I wouldn't go around manipulating another person into sex. The very idea makes me nauseated. However, it took me far too long to understand that just because I wouldn't didn't mean there weren't lots of other people who would, and who would do so to me given the chance.

However, that protection was also a loss of freedom. Given the choice between some damaged guy trying to manipulate me into sex or safe cage I could never leave, I'll take my lumps.
  #9  
Old 12-16-2008, 04:17 AM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
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No offense, but I don't see what your point is. How does one get "manipulated into having sex"? Why does someone date a person who needs to badger them into having sex in the first place?
  #10  
Old 12-16-2008, 06:19 AM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith537 View Post
No offense, but I don't see what your point is. How does one get "manipulated into having sex"? Why does someone date a person who needs to badger them into having sex in the first place?
I don't think it's really a very uncommon experience. I'm not sure what's difficult to understand. Not everybody has immediate instincts for what constitutes a healthy relationship. Some of us have to work it out based on experience, and the way the things we do impact the way we feel. I guess if you were standing in my 17-year-old shoes, you had basically become an adult overnight, you had been all but abandoned by most of your family, and you had never been taught that you had a right to say no, maybe you'd understand. I learned my lesson. I felt shame at the time, but I don't any more, because I see that I was in crazy circumstances just trying to cope the best way I could. Nobody's claiming they didn't have responsibility for what happened here, but it doesn't make the situation any less upsetting, or worthy of discussion.

Last edited by Spice Weasel; 12-16-2008 at 06:20 AM..
  #11  
Old 12-16-2008, 06:36 AM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian Slit View Post
In my case that I mentioned in that thread, I did say yes, but it was after about ten minutes of badgering, and I stopped the sex midway through (yeah, that bad). I felt pretty bad about it the next day, and it still leaves me feeling really shitty.
I read your comment in this thread, and was nonplused. I'm a guy (I mention it because many posters get it wrong) and I had sex with my partner because she was insisting on it (not necessarily in words, but simply by not being willing to let me alone), despite not being in the mood, or like you when I would rather sleep and so on. In this instance, you just have to concentrate so that you won't "fail" (not a problem for women), or alternatively find another way to satisfy your partner's urges, all the way hoping that it will be over soon so you can sleep or do whatever else you feel like doing. And I'm sure that many a time my partners had sex with me when really, they would rather have slept.


Not only I wouldn't equate it to rape, but I wouldn't even *compare* it to rape. I would compare it to eventually agreeing to watch a movie you know is going to bore you out because your partner really, really wants to see it.


The problem in my opinion, is that some people think of sex as a really, really big deal, when actually, it isn't. People have sex all the time with their partners, sometimes enthusiastically, and sometimes much less so, they are involved together in tons of activities sometimes enthusiastically and sometimes much less so ("We really should pay a visit to my parents over the weekend"), and all that is just part of being a couple. Sex sure is an important part, but not something that should be over thought as in "Do I really, really, really want to have sex and should I abstain if I'm not 100% sure?", "Should I feel violated because his genitals were in contact with mine for the 462th time in two years, except that this time I'd rather have read a book instead?" "Is it attempted rape because it's the third time he asks in a row, when I told him I didn't feel like it?", and so on.


If you wouldn't give it a second thought if it involved whatever other mundane activity your partner was insisting on, then you shouldn't give it a second thought when it involves sex, either. If you're not wondering if eventually giving in and watching the boring movie at the theater is akin to kidnapping, then you shouldn't wonder if eventually giving in and having boring sex is akin to rape, in my opinion.
  #12  
Old 12-16-2008, 06:37 AM
astorian astorian is offline
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I know this violates the stereotype, but I'm willing to bet that most MEN have had sex, at one time or another, when they didn't really feel like it, just because their spouses/girlfriends were very aggressively horny.

So, if the definition is vague or broad enough, most men can probably claim to be rape victims.

And if a woman can claim to have been "raped" after giving in to an extremely pushy seducer, after telling him no several times... well, can she also claim to have been "robbed" if she finally buys a time share from a pushy salesman, after she's said "not interested" or "I can't afford that" several times?
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Old 12-16-2008, 06:40 AM
Lavender Falcon Lavender Falcon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith537 View Post
Why does someone date a person who needs to badger them into having sex in the first place?
I always chalk that particular relationship up to me being young and stupid. I was in a small, isolated town far from home and under a lot of work pressure. Very charming, gorgeously handsome man starts pursuing me. He was older, and I was in awe of him, but not really interested in him in some fundamental ways. But I was lonely and isolated, and he seemed very sweet, and the physical attraction was there.

Until the first date, when he wanted sex, and I wasn't sure. Most guys will be persistent to see how far you'll let them go, but when you stop their hand from going wherever, they stop. And then they'll try again--the next time you're with them. This guy would try again about five minutes later.

And that's where I say I was young and stupid. I didn't have my own transportation--and there was no safe way for me to leave. There was nobody for me to call to come get me, and home was too far too walk, and it would have been dangerous to try.

I got very confused about his advances. Because I *did* want to have sex with him--I'd been wanting it those weeks he'd been trying to get me to go out with him. But I didn't want it that night. I was looking for a relationship to develop, and I was looking for him to be like every other guy I'd been with where the hand would stop, and he'd try again the next time. Which always increases my interest if I'm interested in the guy--I'd never ask guys to not be persistent. It's just that asking again five minutes later is obnoxious, and he was making it out to be my hangup that I was being reluctant. He knew what had me feeling so lost at the time, and he kept using that--he was there to *help* me, if only I'd let him. And that felt really weird and not right, but he'd been so charming when he was trying to get me to agree to a date. I kept waiting for Mr. Charming to reappear, and he never did once I'd agreed to go out with him.

If I'd been looking out for myself and not having so many other problems at the time, I would never have gotten myself into that situation in the first place. And I certainly wouldn't have gone out with him a second time. That's why I don't see it as rape. I recognize that ending up with him was *me* being messed up enough at the time to end up with an asshole. Was he criminal? No. Selfish jerk? Yes. And stupid me for not taking care of myself. I learned from it, though, and it's not a mistake I've ever repeated.
  #14  
Old 12-16-2008, 06:49 AM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seodoa View Post
Yes, while in an (emotionally and physically) abusive relationship that lasted for six months. I was dumb enough to move in with him, too. I would dread the time he got off work.
A generally abusive relationship isn't the same kettle of fish as an occasional unenthusiastic sex act in an otherwise healthy relationship as per the OP's example.
  #15  
Old 12-16-2008, 06:57 AM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Originally Posted by astorian View Post
I know this violates the stereotype, but I'm willing to bet that most MEN have had sex, at one time or another, when they didn't really feel like it, just because their spouses/girlfriends were very aggressively horny.

So, if the definition is vague or broad enough, most men can probably claim to be rape victims.

And if a woman can claim to have been "raped" after giving in to an extremely pushy seducer, after telling him no several times... well, can she also claim to have been "robbed" if she finally buys a time share from a pushy salesman, after she's said "not interested" or "I can't afford that" several times?
I must be interpreting this thread very differently, because I don't see where anyone is calling these experiences rape. In fact, the title of the thread includes the words ''not rape.'' Every person here seems to be aware that they were responsible for their own actions at the time. Nobody is claiming being pressured into having sex is the same as rape (except Nzinga's friend, who isn't here.)

clairobscur, I don't think sex can be compared to watching a movie. For some of us, what we do with our bodies is a big deal. I respect that that's not the case for you, but try to wrap your mind around the fact that to some of us, it really matters. And there's nothing in the OP that suggests the guy was a live-in boyfriend or that this was a domestic situation. Maybe it was, but maybe it wasn't.

Last edited by Spice Weasel; 12-16-2008 at 06:59 AM..
  #16  
Old 12-16-2008, 07:29 AM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th View Post
clairobscur, I don't think sex can be compared to watching a movie. For some of us, what we do with our bodies is a big deal.
I think it's rarely about "what people do with their bodies" because if it were the case, we would have threads about partners who insist all the time on cuddling and hugging, or kiss you on the neck when you don't feel like being kissed on the neck, and whether this should be considered assault and battery or not. We don't have such threads. It's not about bodies, it's solely about sex.


And I do know that many people think of sex as being a big deal. That's why I mentioned it. And I still think that's the problem. That's unhealthy. Sex is a fundamental element in a relationship, but there are many others : cuddling, emotional support, listening to whatever the partner feels the need to share, etc... An emotional leech isn't particularly better than an extra-horny and pushing partner. But nobody compares emotional leeches to criminals.



Quote:
. And there's nothing in the OP that suggests the guy was a live-in boyfriend or that this was a domestic situation. Maybe it was, but maybe it wasn't.
I believe she mentioned it in the other thread. But I might be mistaken.
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Old 12-16-2008, 07:51 AM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
And I do know that many people think of sex as being a big deal. That's why I mentioned it. And I still think that's the problem. That's unhealthy. Sex is a fundamental element in a relationship, but there are many others : cuddling, emotional support, listening to whatever the partner feels the need to share, etc... An emotional leech isn't particularly better than an extra-horny and pushing partner. But nobody compares emotional leeches to criminals.
I think the point of this thread is not to compare being pressured into sex to criminal behavior, but to share opinions and experiences related to said pressure. I think this thread was spawned by the rape thread, but I don't think the implication is at all that this is the same thing as rape. There are plenty of threads about dealing with emotionally leechy partners and how unhealthy it is... why not one about dealing with physically leechy people as well? Nothing described in this thread was criminal behavior, these men cannot be called ''rapists'' with a straight face. But they can in the majority of cases be called selfish jerks, and we can in the majority of cases call ourselves young and stupid.

I think even in a domestic situation there should never be any pressure to have sex, so even if it was the case that this was her live-in boyfriend, I would sympathize. No always means no between my husband and I, and I would assume that any partner who continued to pressure me after I said no didn't respect me. Maybe because sex is not as big a deal to you, you don't see it that way, and I can respect that it's not murky ground in your world. But sex, particularly around the area of initiation, is treacherous territory for me, so my boundaries are different.

I think all this thread is about is sharing those experiences of regret at having allowed oneself to be manipulated. Nobody here is calling that criminal. We are simply calling it regrettable.
  #18  
Old 12-16-2008, 08:56 AM
Lamia Lamia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astorian View Post
I know this violates the stereotype, but I'm willing to bet that most MEN have had sex, at one time or another, when they didn't really feel like it, just because their spouses/girlfriends were very aggressively horny.
I don't have a cite for this because it's an article I found by accident while looking for something else*, but a while back I read a study of 20-something men and women from the 1980s that said that far more men than women reporting having had sex when they didn't really want to. A very common reason for these young men was peer pressure -- they didn't want their friends to hear that they'd turned down sex with a willing woman. Peer pressure was very rarely a reason women gave for having sex.

Quote:
And if a woman can claim to have been "raped" after giving in to an extremely pushy seducer, after telling him no several times... well, can she also claim to have been "robbed" if she finally buys a time share from a pushy salesman, after she's said "not interested" or "I can't afford that" several times?
I'm not seeing that anyone in this thread has said that a woman can claim any such thing. The OP was specifically asking for stories about sexual situations that are not rape, and it doesn't look to me like any of the women in this thread are confused on this point. I'm not sure why a few male posters want to try to turn this into yet another "women lie about rape!" thread.

*I was searching for a specific article about Jane Austen, oddly enough.

Last edited by Lamia; 12-16-2008 at 08:58 AM..
  #19  
Old 12-16-2008, 09:35 AM
Freudian Slit Freudian Slit is online now
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Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th View Post
I think even in a domestic situation there should never be any pressure to have sex, so even if it was the case that this was her live-in boyfriend, I would sympathize. No always means no between my husband and I, and I would assume that any partner who continued to pressure me after I said no didn't respect me. Maybe because sex is not as big a deal to you, you don't see it that way, and I can respect that it's not murky ground in your world. But sex, particularly around the area of initiation, is treacherous territory for me, so my boundaries are different.

I think all this thread is about is sharing those experiences of regret at having allowed oneself to be manipulated. Nobody here is calling that criminal. We are simply calling it regrettable.
For me, it was a boyfriend but we weren't living together. And I do reiterate that I'm not calling it rape or comparing it to rape, but just saying I really didn't want to be there at all. I'm not sure why I gave in--part of me was thinking, "Why is this such a big deal--I should want to have sex with my boyfriend, etc." and the other part was wondering why he wouldn't just let me go to sleep. I chalk a lot of it up to just being naive and not realizing when to just cut and run. It wasn't so much that I felt like I was being forced, but just that I felt like my wishes were being completely ignored, and that was just generally a bad feeling.
  #20  
Old 12-16-2008, 09:53 AM
Arglefraster Arglefraster is offline
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I've occasionally had sex with my parntner at the time when I didn't really want to, but it wasn't because I was being pressured. It was because, even though I wasn't really into it, I wanted to please my partner. At least half of those times I ended up enjoying myself after all.

The one time I was pressured into having sex, it was actually the guy's friend who was doing the pushing. The guy hadn't been laid in a long time, and was kind of depressed about his lack of luck with the ladies (he was reasonably attractive, but tended to come on waaaay too strong). The guy's friend was actually a "friend with benefits" of mine that I fooled around with from time to time, so he knew I didn't have a problem with screwing someone I wasn't in love with. On the whole I would have been ok with it (it wouldn't be the first time I gave someone pity sex), but the way he was pushing me about it kind of made it feel like he was pimping me out to his friends, and it weirded me out. He just didn't understand why it bothered me though, and kept pushing until I finally gave in. I felt pretty ashamed of myself afterwards, but I never blamed him for it. He was a bit of a jerk about being so pushy, but I was the one who made the decision to go along with it.
  #21  
Old 12-16-2008, 11:00 AM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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Originally Posted by Lamia View Post
A very common reason for these young men was peer pressure


About that, I have my own anecdote,but in my opinion, it only serves to reinforce my point.

I was around 20 at the time. I was working (my job was legal and technical documentation) in a kind of NGO whose domain was children, teens and youth with problems (of all kind : handicapped children as well as young convicts). One of the programs was offering a one year long training for unemployed youth lacking basic formation who wanted to become educators for teens. It included a short (one week? a dozen days?) training to get a license for what I think would be called in English summer camp councillor. I was interested in getting said license, so I joined up. The session turned out to be a general nightmare, since a number of trainees had problems of their own and they never had stayed together (we were staying in a small town in Normandy for the duration of the training). Amongst other things, there was two suicide attempts. But I digress.


One of the girls in the group fell for me big time. She was really a nice girl, but I wasn't interested in her and had a girlfriend. However, first one, then two, then three of her female friends had talks with me to try to convince me to date her (she never talked to me directly, and after the the first friend's talk, I was avoiding her). My objections were met with all sort of counter-arguments, in particular how horrible a person I was for having seduced her and not being willing to deliver.


So, I gave in. After all, I was a relatively horny 20 yo, as I said she was a nice girl, and I was feeling guilty. I don't remember at all how it began, but at some point, we were in a secluded room, making up. We did all you would expect us to do, but I was feeling uneasy about the whole thing, and when it came to the actual intercourse, I finally decided to call it a day and told her that we should just stay on friendly terms for the rest of the training or some similar nonsense. It wasn't well received at all. I was previously an horrible person for having seduced her, you can image what I had become after having done everything except inserting slot A in tab B.


I really don't have a fond memory of the rest of the training. I spent most of it trying to comfort her, convince her to get over it, and so on. For instance, she would left in the middle of a class crying, so I would follow her, talk with her, cuddle her, she would calm down till the next time, etc.. (Yes I know, what you're all thinking but I was 20 and the grand total of my previous experience re relationships and women was one). The fact that, the general atmosphere was becoming denser by the day (suicide attempts, etc..) didn't help. The fact that, though the students were my peers, the members of the staff were my colleagues didn't help, either.


I can tell you that in this situation the sex part has been the least of my concerns. Without the shadow of a doubt, the big issue was emotional, and due for the most part to my complete inability to deal properly with the situation, from the beginning to the end, and in particular the concept that I had some sort of moral obligation towards this girl just because she had fallen for me.
  #22  
Old 12-16-2008, 11:15 AM
Cat Fight Cat Fight is offline
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Hasn't happened to me, but high school was rife with creepy 'I didn't really want to but he kept pushing so I sort of just gave in'-type situations that probably, all details considered, ran from awkward teen sex to full-on rape. It's one of the (many, many) reasons why I'm uncomfortable with people who hold a 'rape exception' for abortions. Consensual sex is not always so clear cut, especially for the young. (Not that I want to complicate this any further with the a-word).
  #23  
Old 12-16-2008, 11:24 AM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
I can tell you that in this situation the sex part has been the least of my concerns. Without the shadow of a doubt, the big issue was emotional, and due for the most part to my complete inability to deal properly with the situation, from the beginning to the end, and in particular the concept that I had some sort of moral obligation towards this girl just because she had fallen for me.
This is significant, because if I get it correctly, your point is that we often believe these things have to do with the physical act of sex, but really they have to do with underlying emotional issues? Well, I would agree, but I would also say many people cannot so easily divorce sex from emotion. You seem to see the sexual act as merely a symptom of the emotional issue, but in my experience the two are often jumbled together and indistinguishable.

I don't think what happened in your case was right; I think she was clearly being manipulative and her friends made the situation worse by continuing to exert pressure. I don't think it's any more right for a girl to put that pressure on a guy, and I think it's pretty evident this was a negative experience for you. So you are basically sharing your very own example of what the OP was after. Maybe you see it through a different lens, attribute your consternation to the sense of moral obligation instead of your lack of desire, but ultimately what we are talking about is what it feels like to have other people completely disregard your feelings, and then give in, only to regret it later.
  #24  
Old 12-16-2008, 12:13 PM
beanpod beanpod is offline
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Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th
I would also say many people cannot so easily divorce sex from emotion. You seem to see the sexual act as merely a symptom of the emotional issue, but in my experience the two are often jumbled together and indistinguishable.
I completely agree with this statement. Especially when you're a teenager or young adult in your first sexual experiences. I, and it seems like others (men, women, gay, straight) have agreed with me when I talk to them about it, feel like the act itself is so closely tied to our reasons for doing it--we're horny, we want affection, we want companionship, we feel guilty because care about them but not as much as they care about us, we think we're supposed to want this, we want power, we don't want anyone else to think we're a wimp, we don't want to be that guy who turned down sex, we don't want to be that bitchy girl.

I didn't have a healthy relationship with my first two partners--nothing coming close to abuse--but a combination of hormones, a poor body image, a hunger for romance, and a selfish partner resulted in some bad memories for me. I had sex when I didn't want to for the wrong reasons.

However, I've also had sex with my husband when I didn't really want to--but that was entirely different, because of the emotions involved. Our relationship is stable and loving, and we're considerate of one another. We both feel perfectly comfortable expressing our needs at the time, which is the key, I think. That didn't exist in previous relationships, so I ended up feeling, well, slightly violated and manipulated, and stupid for giving in. Now, with my husband, if one of us wants sex and the other doesn't, we come to a compromise based on our moods in that situation. Having a quickie with someone you love when you're not really into it is completely different, because your motivations and experience are different. In those situations, I feel happy and generous.

Having sex with someone who, as olives puts it quite well, "completely disregard[s] your feelings," is horrible.

Last edited by beanpod; 12-16-2008 at 12:16 PM.. Reason: got rid of duplication, fixed coding
  #25  
Old 12-16-2008, 01:03 PM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th View Post
You seem to see the sexual act as merely a symptom of the emotional issue,
You put it better than I could. Yes, that's exactly what I think.


Quote:
but in my experience the two are often jumbled together and indistinguishable.
Well, not in my experience. And in this particular case, I think that on both sides, the issue was whether or not I would date her, not whether or not we would have sex. Had she just been very horny, I strongly doubt that I would have given in, I strongly doubt her girlfriends would have put pressure, I strongly doubt she would have strongly resented being rejected. She probably would just have picked another guy to bang her.


Quote:
I don't think what happened in your case was right; I think she was clearly being manipulative and her friends made the situation worse by continuing to exert pressure.
Just to make things clear : her friends were very manipulative. I don't believe she really was. As I mentioned, she didn't even speak to me directly originally. And though she was pissed off afterwards, her reactions and whatever she said was IMO caused by her emotional state (and probably by her friends' opinions on the matter), not by a deliberate attempt to manipulate me. I said she was a nice girl, and I still believe so. Just desperate (in all likelihood not solely because of me). The situation was very unpleasant, but I don't blame her. I do blame her friends, though. The whole drama might have been in good part of their making.



Quote:
Maybe you see it through a different lens, attribute your consternation to the sense of moral obligation instead of your lack of desire, but ultimately what we are talking about is what it feels like to have other people completely disregard your feelings, and then give in, only to regret it later.
Well, once again, I still think that that had the story been "You know, our friend is really horny and could use some sex", me giving in but eventually not delivering, and then her being pissed off because she hadn't been banged, this would have been mostly a non-issue on both side, instead of the one-week long drama it became, and I would barely remember it.

Sex was incidental, IMO. And I do think it so more often than not. As you wrote, a symptom, given an exaggerated importance by our cultural heritage (having sex "soiling" us, and especially soiling a woman) and the resulting, and IMO mistaken, assumption that being, say, manipulated, into having sex is much much worse than being manipulated into doing something else (like the emotional leeches I mentioned previously).



And I can't help but think that in an otherwise stable and normal relationship, paying too much attention to such things as one's partner insistence, or at the contrary "walking on eggs" (not sure this sentence makes sense in English) when it comes to sex, in situations where one wouldn't if it wasn't related to sex is somewhat unhealthy. If you can stay awake to wash the dishes at your partner's request, or to listen to the last office related anecdote you partner insists on sharing at 1 am without feeling used, you probably also can offer some unenthusiastic "physical comfort" without feeling used either (plus the likelihood of it turning out to be more pleasant that expected is higher than with the dishes or the office gossips )
  #26  
Old 12-16-2008, 03:04 PM
Kobal2 Kobal2 is offline
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Like I said in the original topic, I've had that experience.

I ended up in bed with a girl after a party, and though we'd had sex once before we weren't together in any shape or form. That time I really, really didn't want to - she was depressed, I offered friendly cuddling comfort and talk, that's it, y'know ?
But it turned into something else (or maybe she'd had ulterior motives all along, who knows ? I'm a naive and trusting guy), and she kept on nagging until I gave up rather than snap & toss her out. My thoughts at the time went something like "Oh for fuck's sake, you keep saying sex is meat, and it'll get her to sleep, what's the big deal ?"

Bad experience, spent half of the next day in the shower compulsively washing, avoided her for a long time. Revised "sex is just two hamburgers colliding" opinion.
  #27  
Old 12-16-2008, 03:13 PM
Quercus Quercus is offline
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Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
"walking on eggs" (not sure this sentence makes sense in English)
Very close. In English, one walks on eggshells.
Also,
Quote:
Originally Posted by clairobscur
at some point, we were in a secluded room, making up.
I think you were probably making out (kissing, etc.) Making up is reconciling after a fight.
[/English lessons]
No offense meant, clairobscur, ton Anglais est tres bien, et meilleur que mon Français.

Just my thank-you for everyone who has helped me with languages at any point.
  #28  
Old 12-16-2008, 03:28 PM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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Originally Posted by Quercus View Post
No offense meant, clairobscur, ton Anglais est tres bien, et meilleur que mon Français.
I'm certainly not offended. That's helpful (only problem is that I tend to forget and repeat the same mistakes)


And while we're at it, it's "ton anglais est très bon " rather than "très bien".
  #29  
Old 12-16-2008, 04:33 PM
RedRosesForMe RedRosesForMe is offline
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*Deep breath*

OK, I'm going to offer my own experience of coercive/manipulative sex, and we'll see what you make of it. IMO, it's much closer to full-on rape than most of the examples here, but I've never called it rape. I'll try to keep this as short as possible.

I was a very troubled 12 year old. I was struggling with undiagnosed depression, I had recently hit puberty and went from "chubby" to "smokin' hot, can't possibly be 12" in a very short period of time. So I was dealing with all the usual turmoil of that age plus some additional emotional problems.

I met a guy on a local BBS. We chatted a lot, then talked on the phone, and eventually met in person. This guy was a friend of my friend's older brother, he was older and all badass in a James Dean meets Trent Reznor sort of way. We started dating, unbeknownst to my parents, because he was 18, you see.

I thought I was in love with him, of course. He listened to my horrible whiny adolescent poetry, we talked for hours on the phone every night. Little did I know at the time that he just liked to deflower virgins.

At some point, rather soon in the relationship, the topic of sex came up. Looking back as an adult, I am amazed at the manipulation, the very carefully planned assurances that he would never pressure me to have sex unless I was truly ready, yadda yadda. I'll spare you the details, but it's obvious now he was very well-versed in talking 12 year olds into having sex while making it look like it was entirely their idea.

So I eventually consented to sex. Suffice it to say it was the most painful experience of my life. He fucked me like a Saigon whore with no regards for me, the pain, any of it. In fact, based on his repeatedly asking if it hurt after the fact makes me think that he got off on hurting me.

This part is gross, I'll spoiler box it for the queasy.
SPOILER:
I bled like I was having a miscarriage, and found several chunks of flesh in my underwear afterwards (I assume he just ripped the hymen right off instead of breaking it like normal.


Right away I knew subconsciously that something was wrong. I became physically ill for a week, throwing up, with chills and fever just like I had the flu. I even threw up immediately at the mention of his name, when my friend's older brother asked about him.

I found out later, by convincing a mutual friend to let me listen in on their phone conversation, that this guy just liked to deflower virgins. I felt extremely violated, but even more so because I had let this guy manipulate me into consenting to sex. Not just talk me into it when I didn't feel like it, or pressuring me, but carefully executed mind-fucks that I only recognized as an adult.

For many years I was that girl that randomly burst into tears during sex. I still actually have some issues with it, but it fucked me up pretty bad for a long time.

So..... that's my story.

*Deep breath*
  #30  
Old 12-16-2008, 04:43 PM
hobscrk777 hobscrk777 is offline
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I have to say I'm somewhat confused about the responses in this read. Either you consent or you don't...right? If someone nags you for hours and gives you their sob story until eventually you give in..that's consenting, isn't it? If you're emotionally confused and you give in...that's consenting isn't it? Please convince me otherwise. I'd like to understand the other perspective here.
  #31  
Old 12-16-2008, 04:43 PM
Freudian Slit Freudian Slit is online now
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RedRoses, I'm really sorry. I'd count that as rape since even though you consented, you were twelve. I'd hope that's statutory rape in most places. And if he continued to do it to you even when you were in pain and upset, I'd consider that rape. The guy sounds really dangerous. I'm really sorry you had to go through that.

ETA:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobscrk777 View Post
I have to say I'm somewhat confused about the responses in this read. Either you consent or you don't...right? If someone nags you for hours and gives you their sob story until eventually you give in..that's consenting, isn't it? If you're emotionally confused and you give in...that's consenting isn't it? Please convince me otherwise. I'd like to understand the other perspective here.
Well, I entitled the thread "manipulative and/or not quite consensual sex" because I guess some of them can be ambiguous. The story I mentioned in the OP about being incessantly nagged at, I'd classify as consensual myself, but I thought it was interesting that Kobal brought up the point that how could it be consent if I didn't want to, etc. I guess maybe I've had a lot of sex, but some of those events were more consensual than others, if that makes any sense.

Last edited by Freudian Slit; 12-16-2008 at 04:45 PM..
  #32  
Old 12-16-2008, 05:07 PM
Lavender Falcon Lavender Falcon is offline
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Originally Posted by hobscrk777 View Post
I have to say I'm somewhat confused about the responses in this read. Either you consent or you don't...right? If someone nags you for hours and gives you their sob story until eventually you give in..that's consenting, isn't it? If you're emotionally confused and you give in...that's consenting isn't it? Please convince me otherwise. I'd like to understand the other perspective here.
I don't know if you're confused about my responses or not, but I never said anything that happened to me was non-consensual. Except, perhaps, for the time I woke up with him already in me. (Seriously, by the time a man is 50, he should know women need some warming up first and he's a moron--unless he had a discussion with the woman first and she indicated she'd love to be woken up this way).

I was going off of the OP that said:

Quote:
Or that were technically consensual but weren't quite on the up and up?
He was a selfish ass. It was consensual, but it's not the kind of relationship I'd advise anyone to get into or stay with. If you say "Stop, this is hurting me," and your partner keeps badgering you, you are not with someone who cares about you. If you stay with him, you're not making a smart decision. What is so confusing about that?

But if you are referring to my experience and you have to ask what was wrong with what was going on, since gosh, I consented, believe me, you aren't the kind of guy I'd ever consent to having sex with now that I'm older and wiser.
  #33  
Old 12-16-2008, 05:26 PM
Lavender Falcon Lavender Falcon is offline
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But if you are referring to my experience and you have to ask what was wrong with what was going on, since gosh, I consented, believe me, you aren't the kind of guy I'd ever consent to having sex with now that I'm older and wiser.
Apologies, hobscrk777. In re-reading that part, I think it comes across as snarky. Basically, I just mean that I would never end up with a guy who badgered me, and I'd never consent to doing anything with him. I'd see the badgering as a problem. And odds are, I'd pick up on the fact that he was the type to be disrespectful *long* before the topic of sex came up.

The guy I was with sent out some vibes that I would now recognize as warning signs, and I would have lost interest in him pretty quickly, rather than getting sucked into going on that first date. And even if I did somehow go insane and consent to a first date, there would have been no sex, no chance to ever be in a position to agree to something that hurt, and no second date.

Young and stupid happens to most folks at some point in their lives. This one was mine.
  #34  
Old 12-16-2008, 05:42 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
And I can't help but think that in an otherwise stable and normal relationship, paying too much attention to such things as one's partner insistence, or at the contrary "walking on eggs" (not sure this sentence makes sense in English) when it comes to sex, in situations where one wouldn't if it wasn't related to sex is somewhat unhealthy. If you can stay awake to wash the dishes at your partner's request, or to listen to the last office related anecdote you partner insists on sharing at 1 am without feeling used, you probably also can offer some unenthusiastic "physical comfort" without feeling used either (plus the likelihood of it turning out to be more pleasant that expected is higher than with the dishes or the office gossips )
I wasn't going to elaborate on this, but RedRoses' courage has inspired me.

Maybe it would be good if everybody could treat sex like doing the dishes, but everybody can't. I know I can't. You see, when I was 3 or 4, my stepdad had sexually abused me, and he went to prison for it, and it destroyed my mother's marriage and she nearly lost her mind. Though I was not responsible, I felt responsible, since obviously if I hadn't existed my mother would still be happily married.

Flash forward to me, 10 years old. I've got a new stepdad now, a man I love with my whole heart. He is everything those other stepdads could never hope to be. I can't describe to you how much I loved this man, how loyal I was to him, how much I trusted him. Around the time I turned 11 or 12, he started with words, saying things no father in his right mind would say to a child. I knew what was coming, you know? I knew. For like a year he just tormented me with words, so that by the time the actual physical contact started I was already defeated. I didn't want to tear my family apart again--my Mom was in love. Obviously there's something wrong with me I'm a fucking child molester magnet! And he told me I was the only thing keeping him from leaving her. And I loved him. How I loved him. I knew what the repercussions would be, so I made the choice, as I made so many times during my childhood, to preserve my family by tolerating whatever I had to.

Well, it went on for a long time, and while I was never outright raped, it got progressively worse and I spent most nights in absolute terror that eventually it would come to that. People who saw us out in public assumed I was his wife. I began to have nightmares of being 30 years old and still stuck in this hellish existence where I had to pretend I was sexually interested in my adopted father. It went on until I was 17 years old. My entire adolescence was spent being fucked around with by this asshole. By the time I was 17 it was just a part of everyday existence, and I didn't even question it anymore. I don't even know who I would have been, as a sexual being, if it weren't for having my sexuality hijacked from such a young age. And when I finally told the truth, very few people, including my mother (who actually did know something was going on), took my side.

So you see, at this time when I was seeing this idiot high school boy, having my first consensual experience, I was still dealing with the aftermath of this bizarre childhood. I was working full-time to support myself while attending high school, my mother was threatening to disown me, and worst of all, I was beginning to realize that my stepfather had never loved me and had basically been using me. So in essence, he died when I was 17. I was a newly emancipated child taking on adult responsibilities in the middle of this tremendous traumatic emotional crisis, and here was this guy who was willing to listen about all of this shit. And that's when he lied to me about himself having been abused, to get in my pants.

So while I think in a perfect world sex would be divorced from emotion, for some of us it can never be. When I'm horny and want sex, I can go and have a lovely, adventurous time. But if I'm just doing my own thing and my husband approaches me--hell, sometimes even if he just hugs me -- every single fiber of my being is screaming no no no no no, not again, please just leave me alone! When my relationship first began, I tried to ignore the internal dialogue and do it anyway, but it just ended in tears (and sometimes violent flashbacks.)

So for me, personally, I can't think of anything more horrible than doing something sexual when you don't want to. Not much like the dishes at all.

RedRoses, that is one of the most horrible things I have ever heard. I am so, so sorry you had to go through that, and it was definitely not consensual. I hope you don't feel in any way responsible for what he did, because he is 100% to blame.

Last edited by Spice Weasel; 12-16-2008 at 05:44 PM..
  #35  
Old 12-16-2008, 05:46 PM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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Originally Posted by RedRosesForMe View Post

OK, I'm going to offer my own experience of coercive/manipulative sex, and we'll see what you make of it. IMO, it's much closer to full-on rape than most of the examples here, but I've never called it rape.
Err... I think you should. May I ask how old you are now?
  #36  
Old 12-16-2008, 05:47 PM
Kobal2 Kobal2 is offline
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Originally Posted by hobscrk777 View Post
I have to say I'm somewhat confused about the responses in this read. Either you consent or you don't...right? If someone nags you for hours and gives you their sob story until eventually you give in..that's consenting, isn't it? If you're emotionally confused and you give in...that's consenting isn't it? Please convince me otherwise. I'd like to understand the other perspective here.
The whole point of this thread is adressing circumstances when consent was given, but not really meant.
Certainly, in the legal sense of the word, consent was freely given in most of the anecdotes brought up so far. But as I said in the original rape thread, "legal" and "right" aren't synonymous.

Put another way, while obtaining consent in the first place is important*, the manner in which consent is obtained matters as well. Maybe not in a court of law, but certainly in an ethical sense.


* And the award for Understatement of the Year 2008 goes to...
  #37  
Old 12-16-2008, 11:08 PM
Nzinga, Seated Nzinga, Seated is offline
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Originally Posted by Buckler of Swashing View Post
Personally, I do not 'say no at first but mean yes' because I find it a little on the silly side, but I do not believe that women who do that do so because of a subconscious belief that men own their bodies . This is the type of 'feminism' that makes things difficult for more reasonable feminists.
I agree, it is a bit silly, but I like it anyways. I gotta admit though, I am curious as to why I enjoy doing that, sometimes... I really don't know why I enjoy it.
  #38  
Old 12-16-2008, 11:42 PM
Buckler of Swashing Buckler of Swashing is offline
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Originally Posted by Nzinga, Seated View Post
I agree, it is a bit silly, but I like it anyways. I gotta admit though, I am curious as to why I enjoy doing that, sometimes... I really don't know why I enjoy it.
Yeah, I tried to think of a word other than 'silly' so my post wouldn't read like a backhanded way of chastising you. I guess I meant that it just doesn't suit me personally, probably because my boat is floated by enthusiasm* and I probably subconsciously assume that men like that too, so it wouldn't occur to me to use 'no' as a tactic for adding to sexual excitement, it just seems too roundabout a way of getting to the 'yes!' which is the part that I like! Though I have no issue with people like yourself for whom 'no' works and did not mean to suggest silliness on your part.


*Not to suggest that enthusiasm does not also provide you with buoyancy [/boat metaphor].
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  #39  
Old 12-16-2008, 11:47 PM
Autolycus Autolycus is offline
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Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th View Post
I wasn't going to elaborate on this, but RedRoses' courage has inspired me.
I just wanted to personally thank you for sharing. {{olives}} And Roses too! Those stories sound so dreadful I don't know if I'm more angry or sad.

Last edited by Autolycus; 12-16-2008 at 11:49 PM..
  #40  
Old 12-16-2008, 11:49 PM
Lamia Lamia is offline
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Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
Just to make things clear : her friends were very manipulative. I don't believe she really was. As I mentioned, she didn't even speak to me directly originally. And though she was pissed off afterwards, her reactions and whatever she said was IMO caused by her emotional state (and probably by her friends' opinions on the matter), not by a deliberate attempt to manipulate me. I said she was a nice girl, and I still believe so. Just desperate (in all likelihood not solely because of me). The situation was very unpleasant, but I don't blame her. I do blame her friends, though. The whole drama might have been in good part of their making.
That sounds like a very strange and unpleasant situation indeed. The behavior of the friends seems pretty weird to me, but girls can sometimes be very aggressive and narrow-minded when it comes to "helping" a friend. They probably had an unrealistic idea of the situation and may have enjoyed being part of a romantic drama. It's a shame they did not stop to think more about what was really best for their friend, or for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRosesForMe View Post
OK, I'm going to offer my own experience of coercive/manipulative sex, and we'll see what you make of it. IMO, it's much closer to full-on rape than most of the examples here, but I've never called it rape.
What a sad story. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

RedRosesForMe, if you don't want to call it rape then I don't think you need to. I can understand that you wouldn't want to deny the fact that you did consent. On the other hand, if you're concerned that you don't have the right to call it rape then I want to assure you that you do. What that guy did to you was both illegal and cruel.

I think a lot of women (and probably men too, although I know less about that subject) who have been sexually assaulted or raped hesitate to use those words because they feel it's unfair to those who have suffered even worse or because they feel guilty about being upset over something that wasn't as bad as it could have been. But there are all kinds of situations that can fairly and accurately be called rape, even though some are worse than others.

I guess my point is that I hope the question of what word to use isn't a bigger deal for you than it needs to be. What happened to you was legally rape, but your life isn't taking place in a courtroom so you can use whatever word you feel is most appropriate.

Last edited by Lamia; 12-16-2008 at 11:50 PM..
  #41  
Old 12-16-2008, 11:55 PM
Nzinga, Seated Nzinga, Seated is offline
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Originally Posted by Buckler of Swashing View Post
Yeah, I tried to think of a word other than 'silly' so my post wouldn't read like a backhanded way of chastising you. I guess I meant that it just doesn't suit me personally, probably because my boat is floated by enthusiasm* and I probably subconsciously assume that men like that too, so it wouldn't occur to me to use 'no' as a tactic for adding to sexual excitement, it just seems too roundabout a way of getting to the 'yes!' which is the part that I like! Though I have no issue with people like yourself for whom 'no' works and did not mean to suggest silliness on your part.


*Not to suggest that enthusiasm does not also provide you with buoyancy [/boat metaphor].
Oh, I am not easily offended, Buckler. I actually agree it is a bit silly. I think I know why I do it, though, after mulling it over. I think it has to do with wanting him to beg/'force' me. I think it makes me feel desirable when he does that, which may be a form of a self esteem issue. Oddly enough, my husband has always expressed only desire for me physically, and I do feel desirable, so I still don't know why this kind of play excites me sometimes. Why should I even want him to beg/'force' me? I am as confused as ever, I guess.
  #42  
Old 12-17-2008, 08:17 AM
Arglefraster Arglefraster is offline
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Originally Posted by Lamia View Post
I think a lot of women (and probably men too, although I know less about that subject) who have been sexually assaulted or raped hesitate to use those words because they feel it's unfair to those who have suffered even worse or because they feel guilty about being upset over something that wasn't as bad as it could have been. But there are all kinds of situations that can fairly and accurately be called rape, even though some are worse than others.
An old friend of mine went through this. Her's was a date rape situation. They were making out, he was on top of her, and started taking off her clothes. She said "Wait, I'm not ready for this yet.", so he physically held her down and had sex with her anyway. The whole time she was crying and asking him to please stop. But he never actually hurt her, and she didn't physically struggle to get free. Her therapist wanted her to go to a rape victim support group, but she refused to go because she was sure the other girls would hate her for equating her (in her words) "not so bad experience" with more horrific cases. She thought that since she wasn't physically hurt, it wasn't "real" rape, but she absolutely did not consent in any way, shape, or form.
  #43  
Old 12-17-2008, 08:52 AM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lamia View Post
I don't have a cite for this because it's an article I found by accident while looking for something else*, but a while back I read a study of 20-something men and women from the 1980s that said that far more men than women reporting having had sex when they didn't really want to. A very common reason for these young men was peer pressure -- they didn't want their friends to hear that they'd turned down sex with a willing woman. Peer pressure was very rarely a reason women gave for having sex.

I would think an even more common reason for this is that whethere they are in the mood or not, most men wouldn't want to turn down sex with a willing woman. I mean you don't know when you might be getting some again.


I have to say though that I am having a problem with people equating real rape and sexual assault with "oh he coerced me into having sex and it wasn't very good".
  #44  
Old 12-17-2008, 08:57 AM
Freudian Slit Freudian Slit is online now
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I have to say though that I am having a problem with people equating real rape and sexual assault with "oh he coerced me into having sex and it wasn't very good".
I don't think anyone is doing that here, though. I said clearly in the thread title that I was asking about experiences that weren't rape. A lot of people have chimed in and put in experiences that do sound like rape, which is depressing (both that people have had these awful things happen and that they don't feel they have the "right" to call what happened rape). But I'm in no way saying that what happened to me was rape, just that it made me feel really bad for a long time and that it's made me a more wary person.
  #45  
Old 12-17-2008, 09:05 AM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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I just wanted to personally thank you for sharing. {{olives}} And Roses too! Those stories sound so dreadful I don't know if I'm more angry or sad.
Thanks, Auto. You're such a sweet guy. I hope we get to meet someday.

I debated whether or not to post about it, and the reason I did, quite simply, is it's been bothering me a lot lately and since I just moved I don't really have anyone I trust enough to discuss it with. I think RedRoses' post just took me back to how much it hurts to have your trust violated like that. Both are totally different scenarios, but at base there is this underlying sense of betrayal. Betrayal is hard enough as an adult, but as a child, especially when you are already emotionally vulnerable, it's just too much.
  #46  
Old 12-17-2008, 09:09 AM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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I have to say though that I am having a problem with people equating real rape and sexual assault with "oh he coerced me into having sex and it wasn't very good".
Nobody is doing that here. Have you read the thread? Can you point out a specific instance where that is being done? Because from what I can tell, every single person here has posted their story and acknowledged responsibility for it.
  #47  
Old 12-17-2008, 10:39 AM
Santo Rugger Santo Rugger is offline
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First, my empathy goes out to those that have shared their personal stories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith537 View Post
I have to say though that I am having a problem with people equating real rape and sexual assault with "oh he coerced me into having sex and it wasn't very good".
Strongly agree.

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Originally Posted by Freudian Slit View Post
I don't think anyone is doing that here, though.
Strongly disagree.

Quote:
I said clearly in the thread title that I was asking about experiences that weren't rape. A lot of people have chimed in and put in experiences that do sound like rape...
That's because they are. Statutory rape and child molestation. Those are most certainly considered legally rape, which is not what the intent of the OP was.

I'm sorry for sounding so callous, but mssmith is right on the money here, and it's bullshit for these types of cases to be lumped in with somebody who asks a somebody for sex once, is turned down, asks them again, and then they say yes.
  #48  
Old 12-17-2008, 10:49 AM
Cat Fight Cat Fight is offline
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I'm sorry for sounding so callous, but mssmith is right on the money here, and it's bullshit for these types of cases to be lumped in with somebody who asks a somebody for sex once, is turned down, asks them again, and then they say yes.
But this was the almost inevitable outcome of this thread. While I hate to even use the term 'grey area' when it comes to rape (what after the whole 'grey rape' debacle a few months back), this is where some sexual experiences lie. Victims or not, plenty of people struggle to make sense of them. And the few posters who did post what sound (to me) sound like prosecutable offenses pointed out that they did not, at least at the moment, feel they were being raped.
  #49  
Old 12-17-2008, 10:55 AM
Freudian Slit Freudian Slit is online now
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Originally Posted by Santo Rugger View Post
I'm sorry for sounding so callous, but mssmith is right on the money here, and it's bullshit for these types of cases to be lumped in with somebody who asks a somebody for sex once, is turned down, asks them again, and then they say yes.
Well, that wasn't my intention. I can't exactly purge the thread of all the examples that actually are rape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Fight View Post
But this was the almost inevitable outcome of this thread. While I hate to even use the term 'grey area' when it comes to rape (what after the whole 'grey rape' debacle a few months back), this is where some sexual experiences lie. Victims or not, plenty of people struggle to make sense of them. And the few posters who did post what sound (to me) sound like prosecutable offenses pointed out that they did not, at least at the moment, feel they were being raped.
I thought about using the word "grey rape" for the title, but I didn't want to make it sound like anytime you have sex when you don't want to, it's rape. I just wanted to see if other people had experiences that weren't rape but that were more than just bad sex.
  #50  
Old 12-17-2008, 11:02 AM
Santo Rugger Santo Rugger is offline
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Originally Posted by Cat Fight View Post
But this was the almost inevitable outcome of this thread.
Upon a bit of thought, I agree. I imagine a thread titled, "Who Was Raped or Molested?" wouldn't get the type of helpful, healthy responses that were posted here.
Quote:
While I hate to even use the term 'grey area' when it comes to rape (what after the whole 'grey rape' debacle a few months back), this is where some sexual experiences lie.
Oh my! I hadn't come across that yet, but on the other side of my ire is directed at mainstream sources (in this case, a supposedly* feminist magazine) that is justifying these as "gray", when they're clearly not.
Quote:
Victims or not, plenty of people struggle to make sense of them. And the few posters who did post what sound (to me) sound like prosecutable offenses pointed out that they did not, at least at the moment, feel they were being raped.
That's a valid point, and I again apologize for sounding heartless. However, I stand by my claim that it's bullshit, through no fault of their own, that these situations were presented as being acceptable at the time. So, there's the other third of my anger, directed at the guys who are doing that type of thing. I also stand by my opinion that these cases shouldn't be classed along with the situations like that in the OP, but agree that there may not be a better place for people to be able to share and vent.

I think the separation, in my mind at least, is that a lot of these "gray" cases, for lack of a better term, involve a lot of abuse at a non-sexual level. So much that the sexual part just becomes a manifestation of the other types of abuse.
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