Old style punishments, i. e. cutting off hand for stealing.

[Stan Shmenge]

How was this handled? If someone cut off my hand, I would bleed to death pretty quickly! So what was the drill? Chop hand, off to the ER? Surgical removal with sutures? Why would this not be a death sentence?

[robardin]

Not sure about the Old Days, but when the Taliban ran Afghanistan ten years ago, they imposed such Sharia penalties (a) in public arenas and (b) using modern surgical techniques. (Similarly, they had at least a few public stonings of adulterers and lashings of people for things like a woman not wearing a veil in public.)

[sailor]

I remember seeing some documentary about boys being castrated in India. I forget the name but they seem to be a class and make a living as prostitutes. It has supposedly disappeared but the purpose of this documentary was to show it still existed. And they showed with hidden camera how a young, prepubescent boy was done. I will never forget the horror of seeing those images. With the boy standing up a big guy just grabbed his testicles and penis and cut them of with a single quick cut from a sharp knife. Blood gushed out and several people then tended to the wound. It must have been excruciatingly painful and I would not be surprised if many boys died either from shock or infection.

Sometimes I realize there are awful things going on in the world. I also saw a documentary about poor girls being enslaved to prostitution in Burma. Poor children chained to a bed like animals.

I feel guilty because we live our lives not caring about these things.

[Chief Pedant]

Originally Posted by Stan Shmenge

How was this handled? If someone cut off my hand, I would bleed to death pretty quickly! So what was the drill? Chop hand, off to the ER? Surgical removal with sutures? Why would this not be a death sentence?

It's unlikely a transection of the radial and ulnar arteries would produce a lethal exsanguination even if the amputation were done rather crudely, as long as the stump owner was given permission to attend to the wound. Arteries bleed a great deal more if they are lacerated longitudinally, and those two arteries, cut in cross-section, are relatively easily staunched by direct pressure while a more definitive repair is undertaken. Even a sword or axe blow distal to the shoulder resulting in complete severence of part of the upper extremity is reasonably survivable.

And as a punishment, hand amputation can transform a wretched life of stealing into a productive and re-integrated citizen. So there is the good side of punitive amputations (under Sharia, e.g.) to be commented upon, as well.

Ask Buba and Lawali. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2587039.stm

[Toxylon]

Burning the fresh stump by direct flame, hot iron or boiling oil was allegedly used to stop bleeding. Not that it was painless or even life-saving in the long haul...

[freckafree]

Originally Posted by Chief Pedant

Even a sword or axe blow distal to the shoulder resulting in complete severence of part of the upper extremity is reasonably survivable.

'Tis but a scratch.

[levdrakon]

Originally Posted by sailor

I remember seeing some documentary about boys being castrated in India. I forget the name but they seem to be a class and make a living as prostitutes. It has supposedly disappeared but the purpose of this documentary was to show it still existed. And they showed with hidden camera how a young, prepubescent boy was done. I will never forget the horror of seeing those images. With the boy standing up a big guy just grabbed his testicles and penis and cut them of with a single quick cut from a sharp knife. Blood gushed out and several people then tended to the wound. It must have been excruciatingly painful and I would not be surprised if many boys died either from shock or infection.

Sometimes I realize there are awful things going on in the world. I also saw a documentary about poor girls being enslaved to prostitution in Burma. Poor children chained to a bed like animals.

I feel guilty because we live our lives not caring about these things.

Now, now. We have to respect adults' religious attitudes towards their boys' genitals.

[Little Nemo]

I feel guilty because we live our lives not caring about these things.

You feel guilty about not feeling guilty enough?

[Ace309]

Originally Posted by sailor

I remember seeing some documentary about boys being castrated in India. I forget the name but they seem to be a class and make a living as prostitutes.

Some jerk with a weekly newspaper column wrote about this once. They're called hijras.

[sailor]

Originally Posted by levdrakon

Now, now. We have to respect adults' religious attitudes towards their boys' genitals.

Except that it has nothing to do with religion.

[aldiboronti]

I've read the stump was plunged into hot pitch to cauterize the wound and stop bleeding.

[levdrakon]

Originally Posted by sailor

Except that it has nothing to do with religion.

Educate me please. What does it have to do with?

[Bijou Drains]

Saudi Arabia still chops off hands. They also still use swords to cut off heads for capital
punishment. Check the section on justice:

http://www.escapeartist.com/efam/56/...di_Arabia.html

The place where they do this is called (informally) chop chop square.

[BrightNShiny]

Originally Posted by levdrakon

Educate me please. What does it have to do with?

Prostitution.

[levdrakon]

Originally Posted by BrightNShiny

Prostitution.

Cut a boy's genitals off equals prostitution?

[BrightNShiny]

Originally Posted by levdrakon

Cut a boy's genitals off equals prostitution?

Prostitution is the motivation behind cutting off the boy's genitals. What is so difficult about this to understand?

[Paul in Qatar]

Amputations are carried out by one of the State Executioner. THe Al-Bishi family has a lock on the jobs. Executions pay SAR5,000 a job. They also fly for free on internal flights to work.

They use a sword to make the cut in the presence of a team of doctors who patch the miscreant back together again. They generally do in on Friday mornings in front of the main mosque.

[levdrakon]

Originally Posted by BrightNShiny

Prostitution is the motivation behind cutting off the boy's genitals. What is so difficult about this to understand?

The part where you haven't provided a cite.

[BrightNShiny]

Originally Posted by levdrakon

The part where you haven't provided a cite.

Why don't you provide a cite that it's religious based? I've read a lot of Hindu scripture and theology, and I've never seen anything that requires male castration. Why don't you show me the Hindu scripture that calls for male castration?

And if you look at sailor's original post, he clearly states that the documentary he watched was about prostitutes. Since you are the one claiming a religious motivation, why don't you show me what the religious motivation is?

You strike me as someone who isn't really interested in determining the root causes of this practice and figuring out a way to end it. You simply want to bash some mythical PC police and/or a specific religion. Have fun, but I'm not playing.

[BrightNShiny]

Since you asked for a cite:

Prostitution and sex trafficking are illegal in India.

There are people who are called hijras who have a gender identity condition and voluntarily may undergo the equivalent of a sex change operation. And because of the lack of protection for transgendered people in India and the lack of available medical facilities, they may choose to undergo this in the crude fashion described above. But unlicensed practice of a medical operation is illegal in India and forcing a child to undergo genital mutilation is illegal as well.

This is a hijack of the thread, so I'll stop now.

[Running with Scissors]

Originally Posted by Bijou Drains

Saudi Arabia still chops off hands. They also still use swords to cut off heads for capital
punishment.

I'm pretty sure they're not too concerned about blood loss after a beheading...

[BMax]

From BijouDrain's link:

One of the more gruesome parts of living in Saudi was “chop-chop square”. This was an open courtyard area just off the gold souks where each Friday punishment was meted out to the criminals convicted of serious crimes as robbery, drug dealing or murder. Islamic law requires a thief to have his right hand cut off; this punishment can be administered after one offense but is usually not delivered until after multiple offenses.

Persons convicted of drug-related offenses, rape and murder all are beheaded. This is done today just as it was a thousand years ago; with a large curved sword. A modern twist is often used in that the person is usually drugged and often has some of their blood removed just before execution so the scene is not so messy.

So blood loss isn't important from a medical standpoint in a beheading, but it seems to be a consideration from an aesthetic POV.

[greatshakes]

Originally Posted by BMax

From BijouDrain's link:

So blood loss isn't important from a medical standpoint in a beheading, but it seems to be a consideration from an aesthetic POV.

Somewhere here, there is a quality of life joke, but I just can't find it.

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

I have another related question. Suppose you were sentenced to the stocks in medieval Britain. What could the general public do to you? Were there any limits? Could you be stabbed, murdered etc?

[Sailboat]

Originally Posted by Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party

I have another related question. Suppose you were sentenced to the stocks in medieval Britain. What could the general public do to you? Were there any limits? Could you be stabbed, murdered etc?

This is a highly topical question, as there are some people involved in stocks here in the US right now who should be punished by the general public.

[robardin]

Originally Posted by Paul in Saudi

Amputations are carried out by one of the State Executioner. THe Al-Bishi family has a lock on the jobs. Executions pay SAR5,000 a job. They also fly for free on internal flights to work.

They use a sword to make the cut in the presence of a team of doctors who patch the miscreant back together again. They generally do in on Friday mornings in front of the main mosque.

Hmmm... This is interesting. Is the wording "...his hand shall be chopped off", which it would have been, or "...he shall lose the use of that hand"?

I mean, when you refer to the team of doctors who are there to "patch the miscreant back together again", I assume you mean that they treat the stump. But since limb reattachment surgery is fairly common nowadays, is there anything forbidding a suitably financed offender who's been sentenced to an amputation in Saudi Arabia to having his own team of surgeons on call to immediately sew his hand back on?

And is there a penal difference for the right/left hand? Does it depend on the severity of the crime and whether the person in question is right- or left-handed?

[1010011010]

Originally Posted by Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party

I have another related question. Suppose you were sentenced to the stocks in medieval Britain. What could the general public do to you? Were there any limits? Could you be stabbed, murdered etc?

The stock restrains the feet and was generally reserved for relatively benign crimes. The pillory restrains the hands, often the head, and occasionally the feet as well. It was reserved for more offensive crimes. You could expect to have things thrown at you and not being able to dodge them or block them (unlike someone in the stocks). So, yeah, being seriously injured, permanently maimed, or stoned to death could be possible.

If it's any indication of what they'd allow passersby to do to you, according to a tour of a torture museum I took about ten years ago in Germany, women were not to be pilloried except for prostitution or adultery. I think you can figure that one out.

[Paul in Qatar]

Originally Posted by robardin

?And is there a penal difference for the right/left hand? Does it depend on the severity of the crime and whether the person in question is right- or left-handed?

They take the left hand the first time. SUpposedly some people then lose their right hand.

[Vox Imperatoris]

Originally Posted by 1010011010

The stock restrains the feet and was generally reserved for relatively benign crimes. The pillory restrains the hands, often the head, and occasionally the feet as well. It was reserved for more offensive crimes. You could expect to have things thrown at you and not being able to dodge them or block them (unlike someone in the stocks). So, yeah, being seriously injured, permanently maimed, or stoned to death could be possible.

If it's any indication of what they'd allow passersby to do to you, according to a tour of a torture museum I took about ten years ago in Germany, women were not to be pilloried except for prostitution or adultery. I think you can figure that one out.

But if you got caught doing the raping, you would still be punished, right? I think the question was how much they could legally get away with in front of everyone.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[1010011010]

Originally Posted by Vox Imperatoris

But if you got caught doing the raping, you would still be punished, right? I think the question was how much they could legally get away with in front of everyone.

Depends what you mean by "in front of everyone". If everyone knows it happens and "everyone" doesn't do anything to prevent it, you're getting away with it in front of everyone, IMO.

I couldn't tell you if people stood watch to protect pilloried whores or if there were rape-the-guy-in-the-pillory parties. It probably varied from town to town and whether people thought you were worth keeping healthy.

Edit: Buggery might be frowned upon, but I doubt you'd get in much trouble for raping a pilloried woman. That's effectively why they were put there.

[Vox Imperatoris]

Well, no one really cares if you rape someone in a prison (an abhorrent situation), but you still get in trouble if you're "occupied" while the guard walks by.