Should Obama salute military people?

[BarnOwl]

i always thought he should not, even though he's the CIC.

He's still a civilian, and civilians don't even salute the flag;
we put our hands over our hearts.

Just wondering.

[askeptic]

Curiously you didn't feel the need to ask this question a month ago about the CIC...

[Simplicio]

In the US, military personnel salute the civilian leadership. If said leadership doesn't salute back, they're gonna look kinda like jerks.

[msmith537]

Since Obama is not the first POTUS or CIC and the military is not a new establishment, I have to assume, like everything else, the traditions and protocols for who salutes who are already well established and I see no need to change them.

[Squink]

Longstanding tradition requires members of the military to salute the president. The practice of presidents returning that salute is more recent — Ronald Reagan started it in 1981.
Reagan’s decision raised eyebrows at the time. Dwight Eisenhower, a former five-star general, did not return military salutes while president. Nor had other presidents
John Kline, then Reagan’s military aide and now a Minnesota congressman, advised him that it went against military protocol for presidents to return salutes.

Reagan is dead, let this particular idiocy die with him.

[BarnOwl]

Originally Posted by askeptic

Curiously you didn't feel the need to ask this question a month ago about the CIC...

You think I'm a Bushie?
Au contraire!

What's more, I am a big Obama booster.

I used to grind my teeth whenever I saw W's snappy
military salutes. But I chose to abide by GD rules and
refrain from political pronouncements.

[furt]

On the merits, I'm indifferent.

Politically, this is a hornet's nest Obama is thankfully wise enough to avoid.

[BarnOwl]

Originally Posted by furt

On the merits, I'm indifferent.

Politically, this is a hornet's nest Obama is thankfully wise enough to avoid.

You're probably right.

The GOP would howl if Obama didn't salute.

[spifflog]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

In the US, military personnel salute the civilian leadership. If said leadership doesn't salute back, they're gonna look kinda like jerks.

Where did you get that?!?!?

The only civilian that we salute in the President. That gets debated periodically, but most don't have heart ache with that.

I've seen SecDef greeted by military officers, and I've not seen then salute even him.

[spifflog]

Originally Posted by BarnOwl

You think I'm a Bushie?
Au contraire!

What's more, I am a big Obama booster.

I used to grind my teeth whenever I saw W's snappy
military salutes. But I chose to abide by GD rules and
refrain from political pronouncements.

I'm pretty middle of the road when it comes to Bush, but at least he could salute. Your boy Clinton though, clearly didin't want to salute and it showed!

[Giles]

Originally Posted by BarnOwl

The GOP would howl if Obama didn't salute.

Perhaps they would. However, the current POTUS (like most of his precedessors) is not a member of the military, and never has been: he is a civilian, even though he is Commander in Chief, and so should not salute.

[BarnOwl]

Originally Posted by spifflog

Where did you get that?!?!?

The only civilian that we salute in the President. That gets debated periodically, but most don't have heart ache with that.

I've seen SecDef greeted by military officers, and I've not seen then salute even him.

And if not saluting was good enough for Ike...

Here's an ex-military guy who stopped returning salutes because he knew it was
inappropriate as a civilian.

[askeptic]

This is one of those Catch-22 things. Some people are going to say he should not do it. If he doesn't do it THOSE SAME PEOPLE are going to say "OMG he disrespected the soldiers, they saluted him and he didn't return it."

Reagan started it a quarter of a century ago. I see good reasons why the president should do it and good reasons why he shouldn't. I say Obama and the country have more important things to worry about and he should spend time worrying about those things rather than this thing.

[Mr. Moto]

Originally Posted by BarnOwl

And if not saluting was good enough for Ike...

Here's an ex-military guy who stopped returning salutes because he knew it was
inappropriate as a civilian.

I don't think that he ever returned salutes as president. He sure did as an active duty Army officer. And let's be clear about what a returned salute means - it is an acknowledgment of respect given and a return of it.

Now, custom dictates that military personnel salute the president because he is commander-in-chief. Now, Reagan had once been active duty Army, though in a rear-echelon support job in California. He thought that a salute rendered ought to be returned for the reasons I gave above and started to do so. Presidents since him have continued to do this.

I don't mind it, myself, but I don't think the world turns on it either.

[BarnOwl]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moto

I don't think that he ever returned salutes as president. He sure did as an active duty Army officer. And let's be clear about what a returned salute means - it is an acknowledgment of respect given and a return of it.

Now, custom dictates that military personnel salute the president because he is commander-in-chief. Now, Reagan had once been active duty Army, though in a rear-echelon support job in California. He thought that a salute rendered ought to be returned for the reasons I gave above and started to do so. Presidents since him have continued to do this.

I don't mind it, myself, but I don't think the world turns on it either.

Agreed. It's a small matter.

I think both sides have had their say, and request the mods to close this thread

[brownie55]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moto

I don't think that he ever returned salutes as president. He sure did as an active duty Army officer. And let's be clear about what a returned salute means - it is an acknowledgment of respect given and a return of it.

Now, custom dictates that military personnel salute the president because he is commander-in-chief. Now, Reagan had once been active duty Army, though in a rear-echelon support job in California. He thought that a salute rendered ought to be returned for the reasons I gave above and started to do so. Presidents since him have continued to do this.

I don't mind it, myself, but I don't think the world turns on it either.

I'd agree with you if the military saluted while out of uniform. Since they don't, it is not apporpriate for the president to return the salute while in civilian clothes. If we get him one of those Banana Republic Generalissimo outfits, then hell yeah, he should snap away.

[spifflog]

I agree that Obama is in damned if he does, damned if he doesn't territory.

As a military guy, I'd prefer that he return the salute, but most aren't hard over either way. Having said that that when I see a senior military officer in civilian clothes and I salute him because I'm in uniform, they NEVER salute back.

[Lanzy]

I've seen civilians salute, it looks silly and its wrong, but I never felt the need to tell them that.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally Posted by spifflog

I'm pretty middle of the road when it comes to Bush, but at least he could salute. Your boy Clinton though, clearly didin't want to salute and it showed!

Clinton saluted. He got criticized by the right for doing it too. It's a no win situation for any Democrat because either choice is spun as contempt for the military by the right.

Personally, I think that if George Washington didn't think there was any need to return a salute, then there's no need for any other CIC to do it. It was a lame thing for Reagan to start (especially since he spent his own "military service" making VD training films on a Hollywood backlot), but now it's just become accepted as normal protocol. I doubt anyone's going to end it.

[spifflog]

I agree that it will never end. I'm as patrotic as the next guy, but that $1.98 American flag pin (that I think Nixon started) drives me nuts. But Omama took flack for not having that during the election as I recall, so he's screwed either way.

I know that Clinton saluted. My comment was that he looked very uncomfortable doing it.

[Paul in Qatar]

It is curious how often this comes up. I enjoy US AM talk radio, but rarely have a chance to listen to it. I do remember someone calling (let's say Rush) to say how upset he was the Clinton who never served in the military returned the salute of a Marine someplace. Fast forward a few years and I heard a caller saying how proud he felt when Bush returned the salute of a Marine someplace.

For me, as an old soldier, returning a salute is the most automatic, natural thing in the world.

[XT]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Personally, I think that if George Washington didn't think there was any need to return a salute, then there's no need for any other CIC to do it. It was a lame thing for Reagan to start (especially since he spent his own "military service" making VD training films on a Hollywood backlot), but now it's just become accepted as normal protocol. I doubt anyone's going to end it.

George Washington felt the need to keep slaves...should we continue that practice too because he felt it was appropriate?

I think this is a minor matter to quibble about. Myself, I'm going to leave it up to Obama...whatever HE thinks is appropriate is pretty much good enough for me wrt saluting the troops.

-XT

[ElvisL1ves]

Originally Posted by brownie55

If we get him one of those Banana Republic Generalissimo outfits, then hell yeah, he should snap away.

Like the Army version Bush modeled at the "Thanksgiving in Baghdad" photo op, or the Navy flightsuit version from "Mission Accomplished"? I thought those had been ridiculed sufficiently never to appear again.

There's a version he only wore on Air Force One, more of a robe really, that was shown on the NatGeo special about the airplane.

Yes, I do recall the outrage from the Ditto Set about the "draft dodger" Clinton presuming to salute our honorable military personnel, and perhaps having to be coached how.

BTW, Clinton and Obama are both lefties. Does handedness influence the "crispness" of a salute?

[Superfluous Parentheses]

I never noticed that US presidents did salute. It sounds like a strange thing to do, since they're explicitly not part of the military.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by spifflog

Where did you get that?!?!?

The only civilian that we salute in the President. That gets debated periodically, but most don't have heart ache with that.

I've seen SecDef greeted by military officers, and I've not seen then salute even him.

I've seen both Gates and Rumsfeld saluted,and both men return the salute:

example

other exmaple

[kaylasdad99]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Clinton saluted. He got criticized by the right for doing it too. It's a no win situation for any Democrat because either choice is spun as contempt for the military by the right.

A very astute observation, although I think it's phrased too narrowly. What the right spins as contempt for the military is being a Democrat.

[spifflog]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

I've seen both Gates and Rumsfeld saluted,and both men return the salute:

I stand corrected.

While the Gates salute is in a ceremony, which I really don't count (in those things, your mother could be saluted), I'm surprised at the Rumsfeld salute. As a military aid to a very senior navy civilian, I've seen him travel with SecDef frequently, and I've not seen either saluted.

I'll amend. NORMALLY, the only civilian to get saluted is the President.

[Mr. Moto]

I seem to recall that the criticism Clinton got was for a sloppy and casual salute - he tightened it up over the years.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

No, it was for saluting at all. I remember it clearly. They also critiqued his execution, but that was an additional attack, not the central one. I remember Limbaugh saying it was ok for Reagan and Bush I to have returned salutes because they'd been in the military, but that Clinton had no right because he was a civilian.

[Tom Tildrum]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

No, it was for saluting at all. I remember it clearly. They also critiqued his execution, but that was an additional attack, not the central one. I remember Limbaugh saying it was ok for Reagan and Bush I to have returned salutes because they'd been in the military, but that Clinton had no right because he was a civilian.

There were also rumors, debunked by Snopes, that the military was declining to salute Clinton.

[Ají de Gallina]

How do you acknowledge, as a civilian, a military salute? Handshake/hugg/kiss/bow/nod would not do if saluting a large number of soldiers. Maybe he could shake hands with the top guy.

Of course, a military salute kid of feels like a non-Catholic saluting the Pope by kissing his ring. I'm sure there are rules for that.

That's what your chief protocol-guy gets paid for. Ask him.

[BarnOwl]

Originally Posted by Ají de Gallina

How do you acknowledge, as a civilian, a military salute? Handshake/hugg/kiss/bow/nod would not do if saluting a large number of soldiers. Maybe he could shake hands with the top guy.

Rank isn't important.

The President is forever getting off and on planes and every time there's at least one military man to salute or not.

I say stop, but like the sensible Dopers above, I ralize this is hardly worth his consideration right now. Too much important stuff is going on right now.

[XT]

I think it comes down to the personal idiosyncrasies of each President. Each of them has to decide what they feel is most appropriate for them. I'm perfectly happy letting Obama decide whatever he thinks is best on this subject. When some of you 'dopers who are opposed are elected to the President I'll be happy to leave that decision in your hands as well.

-XT

[Revenant Threshold]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moto

And let's be clear about what a returned salute means - it is an acknowledgment of respect given and a return of it.

These are politicians we're talking about. It likely has as much to do with public perception than it does about respect. Beyond that, i'd argue there's a case to be made that the saluting of a President is a sign of respect for the office, not the person who happens to occupy it, and that even talking about the differences between Presidents and criticism thereof suggests we tend to think it's the person saluting back - which to me seems rather a mistake.

[Bryan Ekers]

Can't this just be left to the discretion of the President? Does everything have to be analyzed?

[Squink]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

Can't this just be left to the discretion of the President? Does everything have to be analyzed?

Probably. Still, I like the way US code deals with the President on flag related issues:

TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > § 10

§ 10. Modification of rules and customs by President

Any rule or custom pertaining to the display of the flag of the United States of America, set forth herein, may be altered, modified, or repealed, or additional rules with respect thereto may be prescribed, by the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, whenever he deems it to be appropriate or desirable; and any such alteration or additional rule shall be set forth in a proclamation.

It's nice to know that Obama doesn't have to wear one of those flag pins, if he doesn't want to.

[nameless]

Originally Posted by Ají de Gallina

How do you acknowledge, as a civilian, a military salute?

I think we all know the answer to this. Terrorist fist jab.

[Mr. Moto]

Originally Posted by Revenant Threshold

Beyond that, i'd argue there's a case to be made that the saluting of a President is a sign of respect for the office, not the person who happens to occupy it, and that even talking about the differences between Presidents and criticism thereof suggests we tend to think it's the person saluting back - which to me seems rather a mistake.

That's true regardless of whether the president is involved in the salute though - do you think enlisted personnel respect personally all the officers they salute? Or the officers all of the enlisted personnel or junior officers whose salutes they return?

At all times it is a mark of institutional respect, and as such it has its place.

[Spiny Norman]

Originally Posted by Ají de Gallina

How do you acknowledge, as a civilian, a military salute? Handshake/hugg/kiss/bow/nod would not do if saluting a large number of soldiers. Maybe he could shake hands with the top guy.

In my salad days, the correct response for someone higher ranking but out of uniform would be to straighten up, look the saluter in the eye and end the exchange by smartly looking away. Probably too subtle.

[Revenant Threshold]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moto

That's true regardless of whether the president is involved in the salute though - do you think enlisted personnel respect personally all the officers they salute? Or the officers all of the enlisted personnel or junior officers whose salutes they return?

At all times it is a mark of institutional respect, and as such it has its place.

Yes, but my point is that while in those cases, there are regulations covering the actions of both parties to the saluting, only one party must adhere to them when it comes to a service member and the President. In the former cases, it is a mark of institutional respect, and so is handled institutionally. In the latter, it is likewise the case of respect for not the man but the Commander in Chief, yet the decision lies with the man and not with the office. It's not the rules which decide how the President responds, but the guy standing there in a suit.

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by Paul in Saudi

For me, as an old soldier, returning a salute is the most automatic, natural thing in the world.

Perhaps so. Neither Clinton nor Obama are old soldiers.

Regards,
Shodan

[BarnOwl]

Originally Posted by Shodan

Perhaps so. Neither Clinton nor Obama are old soldiers.

Regards,
Shodan

Agreed. But would you say W is?

[Mr. Moto]

Originally Posted by BarnOwl

Agreed. But would you say W is?

Leaving aside the question of his later service, it is a fact that he was on full time duty for about two years while learning to fly his plane. He was a commissioned officer at the time - and would have done a lot of saluting then and afterward in drills.

[Elendil's Heir]

The President is a civilian and is not wearing a uniform, although he is the CINC. I'd prefer he just nod briskly, smile and keep moving. But Reagan having started the custom, it's not likely to end soon. Whoever is brave enough to stop doing it would be blasted for "disrespecting the troops." Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The then national security advisor, Tony Lake, once coached President Clinton in how to correctly salute. See about halfway down this page: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...iews/lake.html

[Elendil's Heir]

I just came across this home movie of JFK in late 1963, saluting an Army noncom as the President boarded his helicopter. Start at 5:15; the salute comes at 5:37: http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-View...JFKPPP-23.aspx

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

In the US, military personnel salute the civilian leadership. If said leadership doesn't salute back, they're gonna look kinda like jerks.

Eisenhower never did. As a career Army officer, he understood very well that as POTUS he was a civilian, and civilians do not salute.

[pool]

I just got out of the Army, if I had seen Obama while I was in uniform I would salute him because he was my commander in chief even though I don't like Obama, but I wouldn't feel that offended if he didn't salute back of course it might be awkward if I held it lol.

[Lord Feldon]

Dwight Eisenhower, a former five-star general, did not return military salutes while president.

But he did salute as he stepped on to the Royal Yacht Britannia in 1959. At about 2:15 in this video. He put his hat on to do it and then took it right back off.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by BarnOwl

The GOP would howl if Obama didn't salute.

When wouldn't they howl?

[emoticorpse]

Why shouldn't he salute military personnel?