Ents in Eriador? (long -- for LotR fanatics only)

Cafe Society
1

One thing I’ve always wondered about Lord of the Rings is whether there were Ents in or around the Shire.

The most obvious evidence for this is the fact that there were clearly some very lively trees in the Old Forest. Merry indicated that it was the belief of the Bucklanders that the trees “shifted”, and says ‘These trees do shift’ after noting that the Bonfire Glade had moved to a different location. The question is whether these are tree-like Ents or Ent-like trees (Treebeard mentions that both of these exist in Fangorn). I suppose it makes the most sense to assume that they are Ent-like trees… however, I don’t recall any specific claim in the trilogy that Ent-like trees have the ability to pick themselves up and move to a different location. (The Huorns do this, but although it is never made definitively clear what these are, Merry says that they seem to be tree-like Ents… which suggests that at least some of the “trees” in the Old Forest might possibly have been Huorns.)

What I find even more intriguing, however, is a suggestion that comes from two brief and widely spaced references in the trilogy. In the Shire, Sam says, ‘But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen away beyond the North Moors not long back.’ Then, in Fangorn, you have this exchange between Treebeard and Pippin:

‘You never see any, hm, any Ents round [the Shire], do you?’ he asked. ‘Well, not Ents, Entwives I should really say.’
‘Entwives?’ said Pippin. ‘Are they like you at all?’
‘Yes, hm, well no: I do not really know now,’ said Treebeard thoughtfully. ‘But they would like your country, so I just wondered.’

The conversation with Treebeard seems not particularly unusual. But that question of Sam’s always struck me as odd. Tolkien never throws stuff in at random (at least, not in LotR). He clearly envisioned the existence of some type of creatures called “Tree-men” in the vicinity of the Shire, that were seen by hobbits often enough to at least be familiar as mythological creatures (the phrase “these Tree-men” implies that the concept is a familiar one); they never get mentioned anywhere else, though. From the story Treebeard tells later, however, we know that the Entwives and Ents originally lived in Beleriand, which was just west of Eriador; that the Entwives loved quiet, well-ordered places (like the Shire and its environs); and that the Entwives did not die, but were “lost”. I know this is wishful thinking, but putting this all together, I like to think that Tolkien was hinting that there were in fact Entwives somewhere in Eriador at the time of the War of the Ring. (I also like to think that, some time in the Fourth Age, Treebeard made his way up there and found his love from ages past, Fimbrethil.)

Anybody have any thoughts about this? Is this something that’s already been discussed to death on Tolkien boards?

2

I always took it that, by the end of the Third Age, the Ents were confined entirely to Fangorn Forest, but that they have once ranged more widely, as Fangorn was but a remnant of the far greater wood that existed in the First Age; the Old Forest was also a remnant of that wood. Old Man Willow seems so obviously related to the Huorns that I would think it obvious. I also don’t think the Entwives were entirely extinct at the RingWar, but they were even more sparse than the Ents, and that Sam saw either the last or one of the last. I think that the bitter irony would appeal to Professor Tolkien: that Treebeard, desperate for news of the Entwives, simply met the wrong two hobbits to deliver it…and that by the time Sam realized he had that information (years later, after reading Frodo’s book), it was too late to deliver the message.

3

Yes, I always thought it was strange that Merry and Pippin hadn’t heard the same Tree-men rumors Sam had. And I had always equated Old Man Willow and most likely other trees in the Old Forest with Huorns.

If nothing else the way OMW tried to engulf Merry and Pippin might explain how the Huorns seemed to eradicate all the Uruk-hai at Battle of the Hornburg, without even any bodies ever being found.

Treebeard does tell Merry and Pippin that the Ents are probably too old to go traveling widely anymore. I think it is unlikely that they ever make the trip up to the Shire.

(Also it isn’t clear exactly what the Entwives look like, even Treebeard is only able to say the eyes are similar. A giant Tree-man such as was seen in the Northfarthing sounds more like a description of an Ent, not so much an Entwife).

4

Treebeard thought the Shire was a likely location as far as the Entwives would like it. Most of the Entwives had first moved across the Anduin to where the Brown lands were at the time of the books. They were possibly all killed when this once fertile land was devastated by war.

Old Man Willow was not an Ent or Huorn but some other evil spirit. Tolkien never really said more on him.

Tolkien ruminated on Entwives and decided that they were probably gone or at least that the Ents would never find them. This is not canon and I dislike that answer very much, but it was his thoughts on the subject.

It does appear that the old forest had some Huorns or even sleepy Ents but we have no confirmation on it. There is a reference to the trees moving around though and that sure sounds like Huorns.

The tree-men could have well meant trolls or giants. It could have been a reference to height. I don’t recall this as well, but Tolkien did not say what they were and Christopher leaned towards them being trolls instead.

The Ents started out as Giants and indeed Ent is a Norse word for Giant. Somewhere along the way Tolkien went from describing Treebeard as, as tall as a tree to becoming the tree-like Ent we know and love.

Conjecture: I think there were Huorns in the Old Forest and maybe even some treeish Ents. I suspect that a few Entwives survived and the Elven song that sang of their reunion was to come true eventually.

5

Well, keep in mind that Sam is distinctly older than Merry or Pippin, so he might have sources that they don’t.

Yes, I think he does. Tom Bombadil’s existence in Arda (or, really, at all) has never really been explained very much, even in his letters, and I believe Tolkien said that Bombadil was an artifact of the Fellowship when it was intended as a much lighter tale, and for some reason he never removed the character.

I realize I haven’t really addressed your question, but it’s not for lack of merit. I’m just not sure what the answer is.

6

I see your point … I rationalize my wishful thinking on the basis that travel got a lot less dangerous at the start of the Fourth Age, making such a trip possible. (That must have been an interesting time… after Sauron’s forces were gone, but before Men crowded out all the other peoples. I’m sure Tolkien fanatics have whiled away countless hours “filling in” the history of Middle-Earth from the start of the Fourth Age to early historical Europe… as far as I know, Tolkien himself didn’t do much in that regard.)

It’s also pretty amusing to observe myself speculating on the likelihood of “what really happened” just as if Middle-Earth were a real place about which one could potentially “discover the truth” as opposed to making it up.

7

Plus, Sam was quite close with the Gaffer (his father) while Merry & Pippin were feckless youths who, it might be supposed, had little time for the lore of older generations.

8

Well digging through the 12 volumes of the History of the writings and of course Letters we can glean much additional information. Little of it is fact but at least it gives us the best idea.

9

On the contrary, I always assumed those dispersed armies of Orcs and what not are now out and about, looking for a place to hole up.

10

Sam is only 2 years older than Merry, and 10 years older than Pippin. And you can’t really describe Merry as feckless - he’s the leader of the conspiracy to accompany Frodo when he leaves the Shire, he stabs a Ringwraith, etc. Now Pippin, he’s as feckless as they come.