Evolution and religion - theories that explain eachother?

Nearly every religious person I’ve spoken to believes that religion and evolution are compatible. However, I believe that this is because they do not fully understand the theory of evolution by natural selection. The Christian perspective, for example, believes either that 1) evolution did not actually happen, but just appears to have happened for surface plausibility or 2) that evolution did happen, and that God caused the big bang and therefore evolution by natural selection.

At this point in the argument I am expected by my religious friends to prove that god does not exist. However, evolution is not a proof that god does not exist. It is simply a scientific description of an optimization process. The way out of this argument at this point for a religious person is to say one of two things: 1) it just looks like we evolved 2) the big bang and/or the spark of life were “seeds” planted by god so that we might one day exist.

These two things are well and good, especially considering that we do not yet know how life started nor what caused the big bang. I consider it shortsighted to pin those two events on a god, but that is my own preference. You are free to believe its the case.

Then what leads me to believe these theories are incompatible? Once again it is that Christians, and presumably people of a variety of other religions, do not fully understand evolution. Evolution predicts that either religion evolved or that it is a natural byproduct of some other evolved brain functions. If you believe a priori that religion could not have evolved, you do not understand evolution! Furthermore, if you believe that it could not be a byproduct of evolution, you do not understand evolution.

In fact, I believe that we will find both of these things are true. Religion is a byproduct of evolution that turned out to be adaptive and was thus selected for. Let me be very clear about this: Genes that tend to make one teach what they have learned to their children, to try and make sense of the world, and to believe, often without merit, what other creatures believe, will proliferate in the gene pool. Furthermore, it is entirely possible that there are genes specifically for organized religion.

We do not yet have a theory of our own brain function, let alone the brain function of our Homo ancestors going back 2 million years. However, there are a few quite reasonable assumptions we can make based on current knowledge:
[ol]
[li]Having an identity (being able to relate certain facts to yourself) is adaptive[/li][li]Extending portions of your identity (e.g., empathy) to others in your group is adaptive[/li][li]The ability to be manipulated by others, and to manipulate others is adaptive[/li][li]Trying to make sense of your sensory data (the world) is adaptive[/li][/ol]
Points 1, 2 and 3 simply separate some members of Homo from our prior ancestors. They state that we are intrinsically social creatures, and that we have in fact evolved neural tissue dedicated to social processes. Point 4 follows from the optimization process that is evolution itself. The statistics of the world are reflected in many of our brain processes. We expect the world to make sense because, up until something evolved that could wonder what stars were, nearly everything in your environment that your survival depended on did make sense. Thus we have a tendency to assimilate data and choose an answer. However, whether or not that answer is correct does not immediately matter. It is simply not the case that we are instantly punished for thinking irrational thoughts. Creatures that think irrational thoughts have historically been selected against. At least that was true until a social evolutionary arms race began, where those whose power of cultural transmission was the most advanced (that is, the ability to be brainwashed by a large body of existing data upon birth) were the most likely to surive.

I fear that it will be very difficult for us to come up with incontrovertible proof for such a theory, or to even develop such a theory sufficiently far. Bones are preserved, brains are not. However, we do have our genome, and from our genome it may be possible to infer what the brains of our ancestors were like, and thus to contrast their cognitive processes with our own. At the very least, however, it seems plausible that our ancestors were in competition and those who were the most social, and dare I say the most religious, were the most adaptive. Religion provides continuity across generations. It brings people together. It allows people to manipulate eachother. It provides explanations for naturally curious brains! It has historically (and maybe even still today) increased the survival capability of individuals (and thus their genes) by linking them to the much more robust survivability of groups of individuals.

It seems clear to me that evolution can explain religion far better than religion can explain evolution. I further simply cannot understand why a religious person would want to claim they are compatible theories. Evolution clearly predicts that religious people are so because they have a robust ability to be brainwashed. The further implication is not that god does not exist, but that their belief in god is entirely unfounded.

Not any more than in the sense that we’re programmed to take on faith things that we learn in early childhood. People raised without religion do not become religious with any more regularity than people who were raised with religion losing it.

We’re genetically impressionable.

That has only recently become true:

I also just now became aware of the “God gene” theory: God gene - Wikipedia

There weren’t irreligious people until recently. And the God Gene pretty just means “credulous”. Most people are credulous, that’s not new knowledge.

How does that religion could have evolved preclude it being true? In other words, you have shown that there may be a natural route for the development of religion, but you have not shown that route to be exclusive – religion may still be ‘revealed truth’.

Also, I think one has to take care with appealing to evolutionary psychology – I think that, due to his intelligence, man has effectively introduced a fertile breeding ground for non-adaptive traits to proliferate, because our intelligence allows us to counter at least some quantity of reproductive disadvantages that would otherwise lead to these traits being weeded out of the population (this has at least some empiric validation in the observation that the rate of genetic change in humans has been accelerating for the last 20,000 years or so).

If God created everything He created the language we are to use. If we are His children and if He Loves His children He would want to tell us the absolute truth about our origins. His Word states that the world was created in 6 days, animals were created according to their kinds. The way I see it is is not logical to think God lied to us, as that would not be a God of Love, nor should He be worshiped.

So can we mutate a animal into another? yes, but does that change the ‘kind’ or what life actually is underneath the physical body, the ‘soul’ of that animal? no.

Fair enough. And since the Biblical account of the creation is false in virtually all of its particulars (including the order in which animals appeared on earth), I guess we have to conclude there is no loving God, right?

There is no loving God is one of several options. Another option is man is wrong and God is right.

I suppose this would this be the option where your god planted a whole bunch of false evidence for the purpose of…of…of…

I got nothin’.

Since every thing people are taught,read or think about God is human, then you are saying the writers of the “word” are wrong about God! You insist that God said or did something but it is a presumpsion on your part. When you try to quote God you are quoting Humans, so your argument doesn’t hold water.

Well, I have to believe man’s ability to understand what the world contains before I can believe anything about what the world contains–including God.

ETA–Ooh! Simulpost with monavis.

All scripture is God breathed, God works through us, but it is Him, not us doing it so your argument falls by the Word of God.
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Czarcasm** God and man must be separated due to sin, God is hidden until we seek and He finds us. As such the world in it’s form is subject to other gods that try to deceive us ever since the Garden of Eden. There we (as humanity) followed Satan, and he became the prince (god) of this world for humans and is known for deception. Since Satan wants to deceive us and is called by God ‘the prince of this world’, don’t you think that following the ways of this world will lead to you believing Satan’s lies?

Do you believe man’s ability to understand? At one time I did, then I sought out God and He showed me that man’s ability to understand is foolishness.

Man wrote this, too.

Also written by a man, and thus flawed by your standards.

Yet more written by the flawed hand of Man.

But surely, you must trust in your own ability to understand to be able to think that your understanding of what god told you is right – and as far as I know, you’re only human, too, so, by your own admission, your ability to understand is imperfect, thus, you should believe that you have merely misunderstood god, or indeed misunderstood the world in such a way that you are now erroneously harbouring a belief in god.

And I will give glory to God that He allowed man to transcribe His perfect Word. The Word that speaks to the heart of man can also be written, what a wonderful God we serve Czarcasm.

Maybe you misunderstood Him.

God does give us His Holy Spirit, who is fully God. So yes, in myself, I am imperfect, I know that and I know my understanding is imperfect. But it brought me to the place that I realized that I needed God due to this (and other things), and I sought Him out and as I stated above He found me, gave me His understanding on certain issues, and has proven Himself to me beyond anything man is capable of proving.