How long should car brake pads last?

[Bijou Drains]

I just replaced the back brake pads on my 08 Accord after only 21k miles. From what I know pads should last at least 50k, even longer on the back. My previous Hondas all had front pads that went 80k, back pads even longer. They did not cover this under warranty claiming it is "normal wear and tear" which I say is total BS. Motor Trend has a story this month also talking about an Accord with 20k miles needing new back brake pads.

From what I have read, this is due to a big defect on Honda's part. They did 2 bad things: they made the back brake pads much smaller than in the past, and also they are now putting more pressure on the back brakes by using EBD - electronic brake distribution.

I am going to fight Honda very hard to get my $200 back on this since I know they are lying by claiming this is normal. It is not normal for any other Honda in my experience.

[Absolute]

Sounds about right to me, my car needs brakes every 25,000 miles or so.

This is the price you pay for improved braking performance, and stability control, and all that nice safety stuff.

It sounds to me like this is just a characteristic of the new Accord, and you're not going to be able to get Honda to pay for it just because it is different from how your older cars behaved.

[SanibelMan]

I had the same problem with my 2003 Accord. The brake pads were replaced under warranty around 10,000 miles. There was a TSB (technical service bulletin) for defective pads. Unfortunately, the brakes never did work quite right after that, and hitting the slightest bump or pothole would warp the rotors. I had the brakes fixed three times in the 45,000 miles I owned it. By comparison, my 2006 Mazda 3 has almost 40,000 miles on it and hasn't needed any brake work done, and my 2008 Hyundai Elantra with 12,000 miles has no problems either, so far.

[runner pat]

I did a little looking around and there are lots of car forums where people are asking about 2008 Accord (and a few 2005-2007) rear brake wear.

Motor Trend had the same experience. Read the comments section.

[Bijou Drains]

If it's "normal" for pads to go out at 21k , then they should be able to show me lots of Civics, Pilots, CRVs, etc. where that is the case. I am not buying that this is normal for only 1 model.

[GreasyJack]

You can't really put a solid mileage figure on brake pad life because it entirely depends on how much you use your brakes and your driving style. People who drive mostly highway miles can get well over 100,000 miles out of a set of brake pads whereas people who are driving all urban-stop and go might count themselves lucky to get 25,000 out of them on the same vehicle.

It does vary by vehicle, though, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Accord is hard on them. Honda brakes are usually built with lighter components and rely on having more powerful hydraulics and more power-assist to stop the car. The result is lighter brakes, which helps get the good gas mileage they're known for, but this approach is pretty hard on brake pads and rotors. This is probably especially true for newer Accords, which are pretty big cars and take a lot of braking power to stop.

[Bijou Drains]

My wife's Pilot is very heavy and her pads are fine at 30k. Her last car was an Odyssey which is also not small, those pads lasted 80k with a lot of city driving. Both are bigger than an Accord for certain.

BTW, I am going to raise all kinds of Hell about this so I hope they will pay me back just to get rid of me. I am going to go to local media, the Fed highway safety people, and so . I am like a pit bull and they won't get rid of me easily.

[Dog80]

In what condition are the front brake pads? This must be the first case of a car wearing the rear brakes faster than the front.

[GreasyJack]

Hmm... sorry, I didn't pick up from your post at first that it was the REAR brakes that are worn out at 20k. That is pretty unusual. If they are making it so the rear brakes do more of the work (which should result in more stable braking, so it wouldn't surprise me), but didn't upgrade the rear braking surfaces I would probably put that in the design flaw category!

[Bijou Drains]

I assume the front pads are fine. They are supposed to wear much quicker than the back.

EBD is a new thing that is supposed to help braking, it mainly avoids your car from diving in the front during heavy braking. It appears Honda really screwed up by putting smaller pads on the rear with EBD. I expect that kind of crap from GM or Chrysler, not Honda.

[The Second Stone]

My 03 Accord has 83k miles on it and I've never replaced the brake pads. As far as I know, the pads are fine. I don't ever ride the brakes, but neither do I avoid using them to slow down.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Bijou Drains

I just replaced the back brake pads on my 08 Accord after only 21k miles. From what I know pads should last at least 50k, even longer on the back. My previous Hondas all had front pads that went 80k, back pads even longer. They did not cover this under warranty claiming it is "normal wear and tear" which I say is total BS. Motor Trend has a story this month also talking about an Accord with 20k miles needing new back brake pads.

From what I have read, this is due to a big defect on Honda's part. They did 2 bad things: they made the back brake pads much smaller than in the past, and also they are now putting more pressure on the back brakes by using EBD - electronic brake distribution.

I am going to fight Honda very hard to get my $200 back on this since I know they are lying by claiming this is normal. It is not normal for any other Honda in my experience.

OK, write this down
The largest single factor in brake wear is located between the brake pedal and the seat of the car.¹
The second largest factor in brake wear is where you drive²
Design, size and the rest of it are all a distant 3rd at best to these two factors.
for you fund of information, EBD is used on a bunch of different cars. I am not sure just how Honda employs it, but on the cars I service EBD makes the rear brakes do a bit more work under light braking. Under heavier braking, the ABS system limits the pressure to the rear wheels to prevent premature lock up. The big bonus here is the front pads tend to last longer, and there is less nose dive during braking. I have seen a few cases where the rear pads wore out first, but it has always been a little old lady who either used the brakes so lightly the fronts never got used, or drove her automatic with both feet. (A very bad idea in any case, doubly so with EBD.)
From the Motor Trend intro to their long term test of the Accord

Now in its eighth generation, the Accord is longer, wider, taller, more powerful,

Translation it's heavier, and being more powerful, you will use the gas more, and then use the brakes more.





¹ sometimes referred to in the industry as the loose nut behind the wheel. Here is a real world example of brake life variance. My car has 40,000 miles on it. I had the wheels off the other day for new tires. The front brakes are at about 50%, the rears are at 70%+. Yet on a daily basis, I see the same model car come into the service drive at 15,000 miles that need front brakes and rears at 22,500. Do I have the magic special brake pads? Nope, I just know how to drive.
² Drive all urban? Gonna use a lot more brake then the guy that lives out in the sticks.

Originally Posted by Bijou Drains

BTW, I am going to raise all kinds of Hell about this so I hope they will pay me back just to get rid of me. I am going to go to local media, the Fed highway safety people, and so . I am like a pit bull and they won't get rid of me easily.

As my factory rep is fond of saying, the warranty is on the car, good will (which is what you are asking for) is on the customer. Your attitude in my store would get you exactly nowhere with either myself, or my factory rep. We would listen to you politely, and then tell you no. You might want to reconsider your approach. Of course I could be wrong, maybe the Honda factory rep is into abuse.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Bijou Drains

I assume the front pads are fine. They are supposed to wear much quicker than the back.

EBD is a new thing that is supposed to help braking, it mainly avoids your car from diving in the front during heavy braking. It appears Honda really screwed up by putting smaller pads on the rear with EBD. I expect that kind of crap from GM or Chrysler, not Honda.

Your understanding of EBD is 100% backwards. If the rears did more of the work under heavy braking, they would lock up and quite possibly spin the car. This is considered a bad thing by the guys that design brake systems.
EBD uses the rears more during light braking. During heavy braking, it uses the valving in the ABS modulator to limit the pressure to the rear brakes to prevent lockup. It is very similar to the RWAL system used on some full sized pickup trucks several years ago.

[Dog80]

Originally Posted by Rick

Your understanding of EBD is 100% backwards. If the rears did more of the work under heavy braking, they would lock up and quite possibly spin the car. This is considered a bad thing by the guys that design brake systems.
EBD uses the rears more during light braking. During heavy braking, it uses the valving in the ABS modulator to limit the pressure to the rear brakes to prevent lockup. It is very similar to the RWAL system used on some full sized pickup trucks several years ago.

I think the main purpose of EBD is to use the full potential of the rear brakes. For example on older cars you had a fixed bias, say 70% front - 30% rear. But if you put something heavy at the rear you would get better braking if the bias was 60%-40%. That's what EBD does, it shifts dynamically the brake bias according to road and car conditions.

RWAL has nothing to do with EBD. Back in the day when ABS parts were expensive, some mfgs. would put it only on the rear wheels and called it RWAL.

[mhendo]

Here's a complaint page with 53 complaints about 2008 Accord rear brake pad wear. It seems that this is an issue that has caught plenty of attention.

The question, i guess, i whether this qualifies as normal brake wear for this model, and whether this is a design flaw or just a part of improved braking performance. One comment in the page linked by runner pat, above, noted that Honda has a system that distributes more power to the rear brakes, and that this might result in greater-than-expected rear brake wear compared to older cars.

Of course, i got called away from the computer while i was writing the above, and when i got back i found that Rick, who's probably forgotten more about cars than i ever knew, has dealt with the issue of EBD.

As for the OP, it's not clear to me that he actually wants an answer to the question "How long should car brake pads last?" because even when people give him answers, he seems more interested in ranting about how Honda screwed up.

[Bijou Drains]

I want the answer to my question to see if Honda screwed up.

BTW, I am not going to "abuse" anyone at the dealer or anywhere else. No bad language or anything like that. I admit I will VERY forcefully make my case without being abusive at all. I find that works OK. I don't know if abuse works or not since I don't do that. I know going in they are going to deny like mad that this is a warranty issue and will claim it's normal.

I should add that a lot of my miles are not in town but on the highway. I will also add that I have heard of cases where dealers did pay for the brake pads, agreeing it is not normal wear.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Dog80

I think the main purpose of EBD is to use the full potential of the rear brakes. For example on older cars you had a fixed bias, say 70% front - 30% rear. But if you put something heavy at the rear you would get better braking if the bias was 60%-40%. That's what EBD does, it shifts dynamically the brake bias according to road and car conditions.

RWAL has nothing to do with EBD. Back in the day when ABS parts were expensive, some mfgs. would put it only on the rear wheels and called it RWAL.

YOu are correct, as was I. I forgot to add that that by increasing the rear brake bias you can allow for a better brake distribution with a fully loaded car than you could with a fixed bias system. In fact the computer keeps the rears tire slip at about 2% above the front tire slip.
The difference is that that with a full trunk/fully loaded car, the ABS system will have to intervene less/in smaller amounts to prevent rear wheel lockup then the system would in an identical stop with an empty car.
The comparison between EBD and RWAL is correct IMHO. The RWAL systems I have seen were 1/2 of an ABS system. They had wheel speed sensors, a control unit and valving, but no hydraulic pump. So they could limit/reduce the amount of fluid pressure to the rear wheels in the event of an impending lockup.¹ A full ABS system with EBD when in EBD control uses just the valving to limit/reduce the rear wheel lock up. The difference between the two systems is that in the event that just using the valves can't prevent a lock up, the pump comes in and the system goes into full ABS. RWAL systems had no pump, so you were stuck.

¹I used to believe that the guy with the worst job in Detroit was the guy that set the F/R brake bias on pickup trucks. As he could not know what kind of load the customer would have in the bed, he could only guess how much rear bias to give the system. Poor bastard had no way to be right.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Bijou Drains

I want the answer to my question to see if Honda screwed up.

Without knowing more about you, your driving habits, where you drive, I would say probably not. I have a very good friend that is a Honda Service manager, I will be happy to ask him his opinion of this, and post it here.

BTW, I am not going to "abuse" anyone at the dealer or anywhere else. No bad language or anything like that. I admit I will VERY forcefully make my case without being abusive at all.

Orly?

BTW, I am going to raise all kinds of Hell about this so I hope they will pay me back just to get rid of me.

As a guy that gets paid to listen to customers whine, all I can say is

[Bijou Drains]

"Raise hell" does not mean abuse. It means being very agressive in asking for something. But you are free to disagree. I have found in the past that simply asking for something gets me nowhere in this type of case.

As far as the Honda service manager, I will be totally shocked if he says anything other than the party line "normal wear" He'll probably try to give some long bogus answer though to try to impress me with jargon. From what I have seen good mechanics are not at the dealers, they are at independent shops who can give me an honest answer and are cheaper to boot.

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by Bijou Drains

As far as the Honda service manager, I will be totally shocked if he says anything other than the party line "normal wear" .

The thing is, though, if most new Accords wear out their rear brake pads this quickly, and if Honda has not sent word to the Service Departments that this is a problem that needs to be fixed under warranty, then as far as the service manager is concerned, it is normal wear.

I'm not sure if things have changed, or if things are different in the US than in Australia, but back when i sold cars in Australia, if the service department covered something like this under warranty without authorization from the manufacturer, then the dealership ended up eating the cost because the manufacturer would not provide a warranty reimbursement for the work done.

If Honda is telling its dealers that this is normal wear for your Accord's brake pads, then it's the people at Honda that you need to be talking to. I understand that a retailer (which is what a car dealer is) should stand behind the product they sell, but if all the cars coming off the Accord production line have the same issue, then the solution rests with Honda, rather than with the dealer.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Bijou Drains

"Raise hell" does not mean abuse. It means being very agressive in asking for something. But you are free to disagree. I have found in the past that simply asking for something gets me nowhere in this type of case.

As far as the Honda service manager, I will be totally shocked if he says anything other than the party line "normal wear" He'll probably try to give some long bogus answer though to try to impress me with jargon. From what I have seen good mechanics are not at the dealers, they are at independent shops who can give me an honest answer and are cheaper to boot.

If you don't mind, would you step over here for a moment of your time, please.

[Bijou Drains]

LMAO off at being insulted by the friend of a Honda service manager! At least it wasn't a BMW manager!

[chicken wire?]

Had my Subaru Impreza serviced today. 90,000 km and the front / back pad thickness remaining score is something like 75/85%. My typical driving is about 50/50 freeway and suburbs, including ascending and descending a freaking steep mountain pass daily. But, I am a train driver by profession, and we're pretty keen on using momentum, managing kinetic energy, etc. I mostly cover roads I know well, which helps with anticipation, and I'm in the minority of drivers (with our Cecil, I believe) who like to downshift and use the engine for braking, and maintaining a controlled rate of decent down hills.

As we used to say at work, brakes are for people who don't know where they're going.

[Dog80]

On my car (Citroen C4 VTS) after hard road and track use I managed to wear down the front brake pads in just 6500 miles. Maybe I could squeeze another 2-3k miles but better safe than sorry. The original brake pads were Ate. I changed them with Ferodo pads, I think they were DS2500, supposed to be more suitable for hard use. I have done about 15000 miles with these and they are still good, but these pads wear the rotor faster and are more noisy. Well, I guess something has to wear down, it is either the pads or the rotor. Next time I am going to use Ate pads again.

And tires, I've lost count of how many tires I've changed. They start to lose grip gradually after about 5-6K miles and at about 10K miles they are totally worthless. Yes, they might look good and have plenty of tread left on them but they slip too much.

Originally Posted by Rick

The comparison between EBD and RWAL is correct IMHO. The RWAL systems I have seen were 1/2 of an ABS system. They had wheel speed sensors, a control unit and valving, but no hydraulic pump. So they could limit/reduce the amount of fluid pressure to the rear wheels in the event of an impending lockup.¹ A full ABS system with EBD when in EBD control uses just the valving to limit/reduce the rear wheel lock up. The difference between the two systems is that in the event that just using the valves can't prevent a lock up, the pump comes in and the system goes into full ABS. RWAL systems had no pump, so you were stuck.

Sorry, what is the hydraulic pump you talk about?

[Rick]

Dog80 ABS systems use a hydraulic pump, or hydraulic modulator to move brake fluid under pressure during ABS activation.
While I am unfamiliar with the details of the particular system on your C4, I am fairly certain that your system has a pump as every other ABS system I have ever seen does, with the notable exception of the RWAL systems fitted to American pickup trucks for a few years.

[Edward The Head]

I've a question since we're on brake wear. My wife's Outback with 55k needed both front and rear brakes, or so we were told. When I asked about this the service manager said that in cars with disk brakes all around all four will wear out evenly. Now I'd never hear this to be the case before, but I haven't done much with car brakes in years. Is this really true? I always understood that rear brakes will for the most part last much longer then the front. I did have the car at two different shops, but that doesn't mean they both couldn't have been trying to get more money out of me.

[Dog80]

Originally Posted by Rick

Dog80 ABS systems use a hydraulic pump, or hydraulic modulator to move brake fluid under pressure during ABS activation.
While I am unfamiliar with the details of the particular system on your C4, I am fairly certain that your system has a pump as every other ABS system I have ever seen does, with the notable exception of the RWAL systems fitted to American pickup trucks for a few years.

Thanks!

And another brake related question: They say that to properly bleed the brakes on cars equipped with ESP, the car has to be connected to the diagnostic because there are some valves that have to be opened. Any truth to that?

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Dog80

Thanks!

And another brake related question: They say that to properly bleed the brakes on cars equipped with ESP, the car has to be connected to the diagnostic because there are some valves that have to be opened. Any truth to that?

Quite possibly true. I am completely unfamiliar with the C4 system, since they don't sell them on this side of the pond.
I know for a fact that you have to hook up and use a diagnostic computer to activate/reset some functions when doing a pad replacement/bleeding on some hybrids.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Edward The Head

I've a question since we're on brake wear. My wife's Outback with 55k needed both front and rear brakes, or so we were told. When I asked about this the service manager said that in cars with disk brakes all around all four will wear out evenly. Now I'd never hear this to be the case before, but I haven't done much with car brakes in years. Is this really true? I always understood that rear brakes will for the most part last much longer then the front. I did have the car at two different shops, but that doesn't mean they both couldn't have been trying to get more money out of me.

Evenly? Not generally, but that does not mean that you didn't wear out that way. It is possible that Subaru designed their system that way, but I have no idea.

[control-z]

I guess it's going to vary a lot. The brakes on my 1998 5-speed Ford Contour lasted over 100,000 miles, and the rears needed replacement before the fronts!

[suranyi]

My 2007 Toyota Camry just needed new rear brake pads at 20,000 miles. I know it's another car model than what the OP was asking about, but the mechanic was telling me that on these new Japanese cars with the latest safety systems, the rear pads wear out faster than they used to.

Ed

[Really Not All That Bright]

I got 110,000 miles out of the OEM pads on my previous car- a 2002 Hyundai Elantra (ABS, discs at front, drums rear).

I was astonished every time I took it in for a service and was told that the pads were fine (and I took it to two dealers plus a variety of Tire Kingdom-type places, and a couple of independent shops).

[Gary T]

On modern cars, the first set of factory pads typically last 40-100K miles in my experience, though there are some exceptions on both sides of that range. Replacement pads typically last 15-50K miles, with variations due to pad quality, vehicle design, and type of use. More often, but not always, the first set of front pads wear faster than the rears.

The first set of rear pads needing replacement at 20K is noticeably below the average, but...

~There's no authority that states how long they "should" last

~It would be difficult, maybe impossible, to present valid evidence that would eliminate the potentially wide variation due to type of use

~Brake pads are an "expected to wear" item that is not covered by the factory warranty

So while it may well be true that this design is different from that of other/previous models in such a way that the rear pads don't last as long as in those other/previous models, I don't see where the manufacturer has an obligation to rectify it or provide compensation. Barring a class action lawsuit that I think would be very hard to win (and which could have negative unintended consequences if it were won), you're pretty much at the mercy of discretionary goodwill from the manufacturer. I would think the best approach would be to say you've had other Hondas and have been happy with them, but are severly disappointed with this situation.

[Dog80]

Originally Posted by Rick

Quite possibly true. I am completely unfamiliar with the C4 system, since they don't sell them on this side of the pond.
I know for a fact that you have to hook up and use a diagnostic computer to activate/reset some functions when doing a pad replacement/bleeding on some hybrids.

IIRC, the ECU is made by Magneti-Marelli, the lighting system (adaptive HID) by Lucas and airbag deployment, ABS and ESP by Bosch.

[control-z]

Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright

I got 110,000 miles out of the OEM pads on my previous car- a 2002 Hyundai Elantra (ABS, discs at front, drums rear).

Was that an automatic or manual transmission? I figure mine pads may have lasted so long because I tend to downshift or just take my foot off the gas to decelerate.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by control-z

Was that an automatic or manual transmission? I figure mine pads may have lasted so long because I tend to downshift or just take my foot off the gas to decelerate.

Automatic. I use engine braking a lot, though, at least as much as possible with an slushbox.

[Stathol]

I don't think anyone has asked this yet:

What does your owner's manual have to say about it? There should be some kind of maintenance schedule provided somewhere in your Accord's literature. 20-25k on a set of pads might be totally normal depending on your vehicle and the type of pads used. There's a lot of variability in how long something like that is designed to last to begin with, and then additional variability in how long they actually last depending on driving patterns, etc. For instance, automatic traction control utilizes the braking system, so if your local climate involves a lot of driving in slippery weather, that could cause your brake pads to wear a bit more.

[Bijou Drains]

I have never seen expected life for brake pads in an owner's manual but I will see if it is in this one. The manual tells you when to check things and if they are worn replace them.

We have almost no snow/ice here in NC and I drive normally, I don't need to make a lot of fast stops. The area is flat , not the mountains. My work commute does not have a lot of traffic on it most days.

[ralph124c]

My wife drives in stop and go traffic-her front pads last about 25,000 miles. I drive highways 90%-I typically get over 80,000 miles.
Speaking of brakes, what is the stry with German cars? Every VW, BMW, M-B is see has front wheels filthy with brake dust. Are their brake pads softer?

[Dog80]

Originally Posted by ralph124c

Speaking of brakes, what is the stry with German cars? Every VW, BMW, M-B is see has front wheels filthy with brake dust. Are their brake pads softer?

I can't speak for the other brands, but I know for sure that Mercedes uses almost exclusively Ate brakes which are on the soft side.

But IMO it is the same on every car. I operate a car wash and every single one will have lots of brake dust gathering on the front wheels. It doesn't show much on cars with steel wheels and hubcaps because they have small openings and keep the dust inside.

Maybe german cars are more likely to have alloy wheels which have large gaps and spread the dust all over the place.

[Bijou Drains]

Honda refunded the money for the brake job. Guess they agree it was a defect.

[Rick]

Or it just a quick way to get you to shut up

[bengangmo]

Originally Posted by Bijou Drains

Honda refunded the money for the brake job. Guess they agree it was a defect.

Or maybe they noticed you were a repeat Honda owner and the cost was an expense they were happy to bear to have you remain loyal?

[control-z]

Originally Posted by bengangmo

Or maybe they noticed you were a repeat Honda owner and the cost was an expense they were happy to bear to have you remain loyal?

Yep, really a smart move not to stonewall the customer. If complaints from customers get treated with respect and courtesy, they'll more likely buy that product again.

[Omegaman]

Originally Posted by Rick

Or it just a quick way to get you to shut up

You do that too? Some amounts of money aren't worth the grief.

But sometimes it is.

[NinetyWt]

It would be interesting to find out how long this new set of brake pads last.

Bijou Drains, will you come back in 20,000 miles and tell us?

[Bijou Drains]

Sure I can come back and tell you how long they last.

BTW, they don't know anything about my other cars being Hondas, I never told them that. And I never took my other cars there for service so they don't know from their records.

[NinetyWt]

Originally Posted by Bijou Drains

Sure I can come back and tell you how long they last.

Excellent.

[Bijou Drains]

New info as of May 2010:

I got a notice in the mail today that there is a class action lawsuit over these rear Honda brake pads wearing out too fast. I can get $150 if I can prove I had mine replaced . Seems I was not the only person upset over this.

BTW, my new pads are still doing OK at 23,000 miles on them.

[bucketybuck]

I found the linked pit thread to be very informative. Noted, for what its worth.