Facts Behind the Murder Ballads

I’ve just posted a couple of long essays on my new website about the murder ballads Stagger Lee and Frankie & Johnny.

They tell the true stories behind these ballads, examine how their interpretations have changed down the decades and identify a few of the more interesting versions you may have missed. If that sounds interesting to you, please click here:

Stagger Lee
Frankie & Johnny

NOTE TO MODERATORS: The site in question generates no income for me or anyone else. Therefore, I hope I may be allowed to mention it here. Thank you.

Interesting idea. Have you considered doing one for Springsteen’s Nebraska (about the Starkweather murders)?

I hate it when people who don’t know anything about oral tradition try to find the facts behind the folklore.

May I ask why? Is it because they’re often wrong, or do you really not want them to try?

It isn’t so much that they’re wrong as they miss the point. The approach journalists and historians and amateurs all tend to take to ballads is one of setting the record straight. They also often assume that since folklore is untrue, you can probably just make up a methodology as you go along, and ignore two and a half centuries of really good minds who have tackled the problems amateurs encounter. (That last criticism is only partly applicable here.)

The thing is, ballads like this are a form of musical historical legend. They are more about the contemporary society that’s telling that ballad than about the historical facts underlying it, and so history is used but also bent and shaped to reflect what the performers and their audience find noteworthy or blameworthy. Ballads do tend to change over time, but the musical structure and even narrative motifs and patterns can pre-date the event that gave rise to any specific ballad. So focusing on a single historical event is ignoring a lot of important history: what shaped the African-American ballad in the latter 19th century, and the conditions under which Black Americans lived in the years during which these ballads were recorded.

Mr. Slade had obviously done some research — he’s read Cecil Brown’s book (I assume the academic book, not just the novel), but the way in which he discusses oral narrative and variation suggest that he isn’t interested in knowing anything about ballads as a genre, only these two ballads. It’s a kind of selective ignorance. If he’s just interested in history, that’s fine, but then don’t make the ballads the focus. If he’s interested in ballads, learn a bit about what ballads are and how they work.

What? If you’re interested in the historical facts behind the ballads, don’t be? Choose something else?

Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question.

Perhaps I wasn’t clear. The events are interesting in and of themselves. If you’re concerned with facts, with history, then focus on the facts, the history. He’s actually pretty good at that on the site linked. But why bother with the ballads, which are not straight-up history? Mention them in passing, sure—this event was so noteworthy it spawned a ballad tradition—but don’t make them the subject of your piece. If the subject of your piece is ballads, learn a little something about ballads.

I keep telling myself never to respond to the folklore threads. Why do I keep doing this?

I’m not really seeing what you’re getting at. The subject of the article (I read the F&J one) isn’t ‘ballads’; it’s a ballad. That is, the way I read it, it’s an article about a song rather than one about a genre. Slade discusses the origin of the song, providing facts and citations, then tells of adaptations of the song, and finishes up with the rest of the biographical information.

So I’m not seeing, based on just reading the one article, what the issue is. It’s better-written than some of the articles on The Straight Dope.

:confused:

I don’t think he needs to write about subjects he’s not interested in, or avoid subjects he is interested in. It is well written, and the content is good. If both writer and audience are happy with the piece, then who am I to complain? It’s not an academic piece, it’s a popular piece. It’s just that to a professional eye he reveals some ignorance which I find unfortunate, and which he could have avoided with more research or with a different focus. In other words, I’m not saying it’s bad, just that it pushes my buttons.

That’s the thing - I’ve never understood, for example, why so many people are so concerned about which railroad man John Henry might have been, what tunnel might be the subject of the song, etc. It’s obvious that even and especially to the people involved the actual factual (what a poet I am) John Henry was not the point. The point was a) man eclipsed by machine b) the struggle of black workers against white managers c) union!, etc. People didn’t sing the song because they cared about John Henry, they sang it because it was meaningful to them in some way that might have been explained by a, b, or c, or a combination, or none of the above. Frankly, why they sang it is a whole lot more interesting than the study of the presence or absence of one John Henry, even though in an of itself that does have a certain amount of interest.

Dr. Drake: Gotcha. To a non-folklorist like me, it doesn’t need to be an academic piece.

Zsofia: People like to know things. For me, I understand the social implications behind John Henry; but if I knew which of the John Henrys (if any) of the time was the John Henry, then I’d like to know it.

This. Dr. Drake, you are getting rather insultingly pedantic about Slade’s essays. They aren’t what you, apparently a professional folklorist, would expect to find in a professional journal. So what; he didn’t try to publish them in a professional journal. They are entertaining and informative for a general audience. There was no call for you to insult him for not being a pro like you.

I don’t think I did insult him, and certainly not for “not being a pro.” Geez. Re-reading the thread, I do come across as annoyingly pedantic, and I appreciate the other posters for reading my responses anyway. You disagree; that’s fine. None of this is personal, and if Slade or anybody else feels insulted I will be happy to apologize, as that was certainly not my intent. I ought not to have made my original statement; it was needlessly inflammatory.

This has turned into a really interesting discussion, so let me try and respond to a few of the points raised.

Dr Drake’s core objection seems to be that, by setting out the objective facts of Lee Shelton’s story, I’m somehow denying (or even undermining) the ballad Stagger Lee’s status as a living thing. If I understand him correctly, he feels I’m reducing the ballad to a mere list of facts, rather than acknowledging its constantly-evolving role in reflecting the various societies where its been sung.

This strike me as being rather like Keats’ view that Newton’s efforts to understand the mechanics of the universe were “unweaving the rainbow” – that is, removing the wonder from what Keats preferred to view as a supernatural process. It’s a matter of personal taste as much as anything, but I’ve never bought that argument.

Understanding a little of how the universe works acts to increase my sense of wonder rather than diminish it, and I think the same point holds for Stagger Lee. Knowing that there was a real Lee Shelton in St Louis in 1895 does nothing to sabotage my enjoyment of versions which contradict these facts. If anything, it deepens my appreciation and enjoyment of the song in all its various incarnations. The ballad is simultaneously (a) based on objective fact and (b) mutable enough to take on whatever fictional elements the singer and his audience demand. I have no problem holding those two ideas in my head at the same time, and I doubt most listeners do either. It’s not an “either/or”.

It’s certainly true that I’m not a professional folklorist, and that I have no formal training in that area. I’m actually a journalist by trade, and that’s how I’ve earned my living for the past 25 years. What I set out to produce here was an article for a general audience which they would find more readable that the purely academic treatments of this subject tend to be. Yes, I’ve read Cecil Brown’s book, but – as I think the list of sources with my Stagger Lee essay will show – I’ve read a great deal else on the subject besides. If Dr Drake would care to give any specific instances where he feels I’ve got my facts wrong, I’ll be glad to tackle them here.

My central idea was to combine a “True Crime” approach with a look at how the song’s interpretation has changed over the decades. One of the most interesting aspects of writing the essay for me was the discovery that it is possible to trace a clear direction in the way the song’s developed from Mississippi John Hurt through The Clash to Nick Cave, steadily becoming more sadistic, keener to step into the killer’s shoes, and less sympathetic towards Billy. Dr Drake mentions the way history in a ballad is “bent and shaped to reflect what the performers and their audience find noteworthy” and that’s exactly the point I had in mind here.

Similarly, I included a long discussion on St Louis’ history and changing demographics precisely because I wanted to acknowledge the importance of “the conditions under which Black Americans lived in the years during which these ballads were recorded”. Tipping the balance too far in favour of this material would have turned the piece into a completely different article, and that wasn’t what I wanted to write.

Others have already made the point that it’s a bit silly to complain that an essay about Stagger Lee is focussed primarily on that ballad, so I won’t belabour the point here. Eventually, I hope to have essays on a dozen or so ballads up on the site, so I think the whole will build to more than the sum of its parts.

Finally, thanks to everyone who’s taken part here – Dr Drake included – and please rest assured that I don’t feel remotely insulted by any of it. Rather invigorated, in fact.

Slade, I think this kind of thing is fascinating. Have you been to prewarblues.org, or more specifically, their Stagolee page? They have mp3s of a few dozen versions of Stagolee (Stagger Lee, etc.), so you can get a sense of the changes over the years.

Slade: Thank you for the response. My contributions to this thread have been something of a trainwreck, and I’m glad you did not take them amiss.

The links do not work for me. :frowning:

Slade: I can’t even get to your planetslade.

Don’t work for me either, they just redirect to the Fastnet home page.