Need *quick* plumbing answers!

[xanthous]

Picture here

We (very badly) need to replace our bathroom water lines (as you can see, we still have the old-school bendy metal lines going from the water on/off fixture to our faucets)

Question 1: Will C.L.R. or some other product loosen all of the buildup on the pipe/fixture so as to make it easier to remove old fixture and replace it with new on/off fixture/water lines?

Question 2: I've drawn a black bracket to indicate what I believe is the water on/off fixture which I believe is screwed onto the water pipe. Am I correct?

I know I need a new water on/off fixture and new (and improved) bendy hose-like water lines to go to the new faucet.

Other than my glaring lack of correct names for the parts, is there anything (besides turning off the water to the house) that I need to know about installing a new water on/off fixture and water lines to the faucet fixtures?

[boytyperanma]

Originally Posted by xanthous

Question 1: Will C.L.R. or some other product loosen all of the buildup on the pipe/fixture so as to make it easier to remove old fixture and replace it with new on/off fixture/water lines?

Probably not necessary. you could use a wire brush to clean things up if you wanted.

Question 2: I've drawn a black bracket to indicate what I believe is the water on/off fixture which I believe is screwed onto the water pipe. Am I correct?

No it is not screwed on. It is a compression fitting. The hex closest to the pipe is a Nut. It is screwed onto the body of the valve underneath that nut is a metal feral. I suspect you will not be able to remove the feral and thus will be unable to remove the nut. Your options are to reuse the nut and feral on a new valve or to cut the pipe to allow a whole new fitting. I would opt to cut the pipe.

[boytyperanma]

Here is a pic of a similar one being put together.

http://media.rd.com/rd/images/rdc/fa...f-Valve-af.jpg

[Dallas Jones]

Originally Posted by boytyperanma

Probably not necessary. you could use a wire brush to clean things up if you wanted.

No it is not screwed on. It is a compression fitting. The hex closest to the pipe is a Nut. It is screwed onto the body of the valve underneath that nut is a metal feral. I suspect you will not be able to remove the feral and thus will be unable to remove the nut. Your options are to reuse the nut and feral on a new valve or to cut the pipe to allow a whole new fitting. I would opt to cut the pipe.

The pipe that is coming out of the wall is copper and I think you have a high probability that it may break when you try to unscrew the valve. I see corrosion that may have weakened the copper. As stated above, the copper tubing fastens to the valve with a compression fitting. They usually only work once and you should cut the pipe back to a clean end and re-install a new compression fitting, valve and flex hose.

But you may need more slack on the copper pipe coming out of the wall. Where does it go from there? Can you get to it or is that under the house, what happens if you need to go further down the line?

The expression, 'opening a can of worms' comes to mind. If you decide to cut the tubing, a tubing cutter is the best way to go, it won't crimp the tube.

Good luck, there are reasons that plumbers cost so much.

[xanthous]

We are calling the plumber that lives up the street!

This can of worms got opened when we had a faucet leak and tried to replace the faucet. But the water supply line is so old that they don't even make rubber gaskets that fit between the old flexi-metal line to the new faucet handle fixture anymore, so the leak became even worse. Ugh!

The problem is that we really want to remodel the whole bathroom but we just can't spend that kind of money right now, so we had this great idea to install nice faucets that we could reuse when we finally do update the bathroom. We never thought we'd run into all of this!

It's obvious from your great help that we will only get ourselves into trouble if we try to do it ourselves. Thanks!

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Generally you cannot reuse ferrules and compression fittings, especially ones rated for high pressure.

If you're not sure, use the plumber.

[hroark2112]

If the stop valve still works, and isn't leaking, there's no reason to replace it. Turn it off, disconnect the faucet and replace it.

[Magiver]

If you need to replace the valve and decide to cut it off then I recommend you get a ball valve with compression fittings so you don't have to solder anything back on. Compression fittings are especially nice if you can't get the main shut off valve to completely shut off or the valve drains back from a higher faucet.

Example of such a valve would be on the bottom of pg 1960 of the McMaster-Carr catelog (valve B)

[xanthous]

Originally Posted by hroark2112

If the stop valve still works, and isn't leaking, there's no reason to replace it. Turn it off, disconnect the faucet and replace it.

If the stop valve is the valve with the on/off knob that starts/stops water flow, that works fine, but the old bendy metal water supply hose is permanently attached to it...and those are the things we really need to replace due to the fact that we can't find rubber gaskets that make a tight enough seal from them to the newer faucet pipe opening that you plug the water line into (plus they're old and not as easily bendy as they used to be- they're not long for this world either). The opening into the faucet pipe is kind of deep (sorry I just cannot find any diagram anywhere that tells me what this opening is technically called...). The old, worn out rubber seal-thingies were long and fit snugly up inside of the opening, making a tight seal around the ribbed metal hose when you screwed down the nut over them (when they were new, of course, now they're mostly disintegrated). I can't find any rubber seal-thingies that fit more than half way up into the opening, and there's just too much room in there for the water pressure to create a leak. So that's my problem...

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by xanthous

If the stop valve is the valve with the on/off knob that starts/stops water flow, that works fine, but the old bendy metal water supply hose is permanently attached to it...and those are the things we really need to replace due to the fact that we can't find rubber gaskets that make a tight enough seal from them to the newer faucet pipe opening that you plug the water line into (plus they're old and not as easily bendy as they used to be- they're not long for this world either). The opening into the faucet pipe is kind of deep (sorry I just cannot find any diagram anywhere that tells me what this opening is technically called...). The old, worn out rubber seal-thingies were long and fit snugly up inside of the opening, making a tight seal around the ribbed metal hose when you screwed down the nut over them (when they were new, of course, now they're mostly disintegrated). I can't find any rubber seal-thingies that fit more than half way up into the opening, and there's just too much room in there for the water pressure to create a leak. So that's my problem...

You may be able to fix the original leak by using a soft conical washer as a compression washer. I don't know the name of the washer so I can't google it but picture a thick tapered washer made of a material that is softer than hard rubber. You insert it over the tube and tighten the nut as if it was a ferrel. I've used these to fix flared end tubes where the flared end has broken off. It works very well. I've even used this technique in place of packing nut material to stop a valve stem leak. the key is to find a washer that fits snuggly over the tube as a base point.

[Chief Pedant]

Your plumber is going to suggest (correctly) that a new stopcock be sweated to the existing copper pipe stub.

Compression fittings are for amateurs who do not want to mess with soldering copper. I suggest doing the job properly. A friend plumber should not charge very much; it's a simple job.*

There is enough rough plumbing stub to do this without a major repair. If you don't have experience sweating copper fittings, pay to have it done. It will be OK to use a compression fitting for the sink feed but the stopcock itself should really be sweated on as it's a permanent mount.

My 2c.

BTW if you decide to try soldering yourself, in my experience the torch is the single most important thing that amateurs cheap out on. It will be frustrating to do it yourself unless you have experience, though, b/c you will be working under the sink and the water to the house will be turned off with the pipe stub completely drained (so its dry). No margin for error.


Although I remind you of the plumber to whom the doctor said, "Wow; that's a big bill. I never made that kind of money." Plumber replies: "Neither did I when I was a doctor."

[Turek]

Originally Posted by Chief Pedant

Your plumber is going to suggest (correctly) that a new stopcock be sweated to the existing copper pipe stub.

Compression fittings are for amateurs who do not want to mess with soldering copper. I suggest doing the job properly.

Why is soldered joint more proper than a compression fitting?

[FalconFinder]

I can say from experience that if you don't know what you're doing, call a plumber for this!

I "talked" about this in a different thread, but about 10 years or so ago I tried to change a shut off valve not knowing that the pipe was copper. I thought it was steel and would unscrew. Long story short, I ended up breaking the solder seal further back under the house and a plumber had to fix what I had done, but then he replaced the shut off valve. Luckily, the plumber was my friend's father in law and she didn't get charged. Meanwhile, the water to the whole house was shut off until her FIL could come and fix things.

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by Chief Pedant

Your plumber is going to suggest (correctly) that a new stopcock be sweated to the existing copper pipe stub.

Compression fittings are for amateurs who do not want to mess with soldering copper. I suggest doing the job properly. A friend plumber should not charge very much; it's a simple job.*

Compression fittings are for people who don't want to pay extra for plumbers to burn their house down. I had a friend who had an outside faucet installed by a plumber and if I hadn't checked the interior wall for heat after the plumber left he would not have a house today. We had to cut an 8" hole to put the fire out.

There are many advantages to them starting with safety and ending in time. You also do less (zero) damage to valve seals from heat warping. I've seen both standard and ball valve stems leak after plumbers installed them. If you look at the valve in the picture the corrossion may very well have resulted from water slowly seeping past the valve stem seal.

By the time you sand a pipe clean, flux it, heat it and solder it I've installed a valve with ferrel compression fittings and am now drinking a beer. That's if the pipe is dry. If it has a constant drip of water behind it then I've finished the beer, cooked dinner and am watching TV. If the valve I've installed ever failed I can swap it out in seconds without breaking out a torch. DONE.

I just spent an hour watching a plumber instal a second set of shutoff valves in a crawl space because he couldn't get the pipes dry enough to solder. This involved vacuuming the lines dry AND the plumber's trick of putting bread in the line to stop the water. A comression fitting valve would have taken 15 seconds to install. It's never going to leak.

[Finagle]

Originally Posted by Magiver

.
By the time you sand a pipe clean, flux it, heat it and solder it I've installed a valve with ferrel compression fittings and am now drinking a beer. That's if the pipe is dry. If it has a constant drip of water behind it then I've finished the beer, cooked dinner and am watching TV. If the valve I've installed ever failed I can swap it out in seconds without breaking out a torch. DONE.

I just spent an hour watching a plumber instal a second set of shutoff valves in a crawl space because he couldn't get the pipes dry enough to solder. This involved vacuuming the lines dry AND the plumber's trick of putting bread in the line to stop the water. A comression fitting valve would have taken 15 seconds to install. It's never going to leak.

It's a ferrule.

I'm not red hot on compression fittings ever since I tapped lightly the fill valve for my toilet while replacing a wax ring and a fountain resulted. Sometime in the past, someone had used a compression fitting on the valve under the floor and it had corroded and was just waiting for the tiniest pressure to snap it off.

[Myglaren]

I don't know if you can get them in the U.S. but push-on fittings take seconds to fit (onto a clean pipe) will fit copper or plastic pipes and there are versions that can be used on hot water/heating pipes.
Cost is about the same as compression fittings. Most push-on fittings can be removed quite simply too.
Turn off the water, squeeze the lockring and pull. Won't come off if there is water pressure applied!

[hroark2112]

I'll preface this by saying that I'm a licensed commercial & residential plumbing contractor in 2 states.

The advantage to a compression valve over a soldered valve in certain situations is that in some areas, the water is aggressive enough that it eats the piping away. When you apply heat to the pipe to solder, you can cause pinhole leaks up to several inches away from the solder joint, and then you have to cut the pipe out & start over. Very frustrating stuff!!

As far as if there is a bit of a trickle in the pipe while soldering, simply open the valve while you're soldering. The water will flash to steam and you can complete your solder joint. If you've got a plastic stem on the valve, you can loosen the packing nut enough that you can unscrew the stem completely and remove it, then solder the valve on.

To the OP, are you sure the supply like isn't connected to the stop valve with a compression nut? I've never seen anything like you're talking about. Take a picture of the line where it connects to the valve & post that!!

[hroark2112]

Originally Posted by Myglaren

I don't know if you can get them in the U.S. but push-on fittings take seconds to fit (onto a clean pipe) will fit copper or plastic pipes and there are versions that can be used on hot water/heating pipes.
Cost is about the same as compression fittings. Most push-on fittings can be removed quite simply too.
Turn off the water, squeeze the lockring and pull. Won't come off if there is water pressure applied!

The fittings you're referring to are available here, currently being marketed under the trade name "Shark-Bite" fittings. They are code approved in SOME markets. They're still a bit pricey, but cheaper than my hourly rate

[raindog]

Originally Posted by Magiver

Compression fittings are for people who don't want to pay extra for plumbers to burn their house down. I had a friend who had an outside faucet installed by a plumber and if I hadn't checked the interior wall for heat after the plumber left he would not have a house today. We had to cut an 8" hole to put the fire out.

There are many advantages to them starting with safety and ending in time. You also do less (zero) damage to valve seals from heat warping. I've seen both standard and ball valve stems leak after plumbers installed them. If you look at the valve in the picture the corrossion may very well have resulted from water slowly seeping past the valve stem seal.

By the time you sand a pipe clean, flux it, heat it and solder it I've installed a valve with ferrel compression fittings and am now drinking a beer. That's if the pipe is dry. If it has a constant drip of water behind it then I've finished the beer, cooked dinner and am watching TV. If the valve I've installed ever failed I can swap it out in seconds without breaking out a torch. DONE.

I just spent an hour watching a plumber instal a second set of shutoff valves in a crawl space because he couldn't get the pipes dry enough to solder. This involved vacuuming the lines dry AND the plumber's trick of putting bread in the line to stop the water. A comression fitting valve would have taken 15 seconds to install. It's never going to leak.

If I didn't know better, I'd imagine plumbers are a dangerous lot.

For one reason or another, compression fittings drip (or leak) all the time; certainly much more often that a soldered fitting. I don't know what type of plumbers you have in your area, but I've never seen the stuff you've seen.

While I have used compression fittings, if space allows for it I always prefer soldered stops.

[Chief Pedant]

Originally Posted by Turek

Why is soldered joint more proper than a compression fitting?

"Disadvantages

Compression fittings are not as robust as soldered fittings. They should be used in applications where the fitting will not be disturbed and not subjected to flexing or bending. A soldered joint is highly tolerant of flexing and bending (such as when pipes knock or shake from sudden pressure changes). Compression fittings are much more sensitive to these type of dynamic stresses."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_fitting

"RE: Using compression fittings vs soldering

If the new line will run through the cabinets where it can be seen when the cabinet doors are opened you may use compression fittings. If the line will be concealed under or behind the cabinets you must solder the joints.
Code prohibits compression joints in a concealed location.
Compression joints are easy to install and very reliable if installed correctly however you must be sure to use an approved tubing cutter to cut the copper."
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...283723041.html


There is a reason you don't hide compression fittings: they leak more and are less reliable. Properly done they are good, but not as good.

The one advantage to a compression fitting for the stop in some cabinets is that it's a bit easier for an amateur to swap out the cabinet.

I'm personally stunned that there is much disagreement--even from the licensed plumber hroark2112--over the relative superiority of these two fittings for the stop on the rough stub.

Sure, a plumber can burn down your house. He can also drown it by putting on a fitting that pops off--incompetently soldered or incompetently compression-fitted. Sure; he can fail to inspect the pipe and burn a pinhole in an old pipe. That's called crummy work from an incompetent plumber; not a reason to avoid doing it the best way.

But in all the new construction I have ever seen here in Illinois using copper fittings, there is only one Standard: these get soldered. If someone did one of my various houses any other way, I'd get me a new sub. I don't care where he's licensed.

[bonitahi]

I am facing a similar situation, plumbingly speaking.
I so truly appreciate ALL of your input.

I can not say how much I appreciate the time, reality,
opinions, knowledge, and physics/science that this board
produces. I thank you all for your important contributions.

When you all make me think...and see, I relish your opinions.

You are Teachers.

Thank you, again. !! So much!

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by hroark2112

The fittings you're referring to are available here, currently being marketed under the trade name "Shark-Bite" fittings. They are code approved in SOME markets. They're still a bit pricey, but cheaper than my hourly rate

I dunno. I looked at those and the O ring didn't inspire confidence.

I prefer soldered joints for most items but I've had such good luck with copper-on-copper ferrule fittings that I wouldn't hesitate to use one. I just replaced all the water pipes from my basement to the first floor kitchen. I used a combination of fittings and I had a number of the soldered ball valves leak briefly at the stem. the leaks stopped when the valve cooled. Didn't give me any warm and fuzzies against future leaks.

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by raindog

If I didn't know better, I'd imagine plumbers are a dangerous lot.

For one reason or another, compression fittings drip (or leak) all the time;

I have never seen a copper-on-copper fitting leak once it's tightened down.

[xanthous]

Do not ask me WHY I did not just take pictures of the durned pieces/parts for you!

This is the existing stop valve with what looks to be a soldered on water line.

This is what I think is called the valve stem- see how the gasket thingie isn't as long as the opening is deep? We just get a major leak when we try to tighten it all down this way, and the only thing I can imagine is that there's all kinds of water pressure inside that opening where the gasket is not fitting, and blammo. (And don't even mention what happens when the water line gets moved- then there's a spray!!)

What I would really love is to find a way to get the existing line attached just so we can make do until we can get the bathroom redone, at which point someone can gladly steam-solder-compress-cut away!

Suggestions?

[Magiver]

that doesn't look like the right seal. I would try to find a compression/cone washer that fits snugly over the tube end. As you tighten the nut it compresses the washer and seals. Something like This.

Bring the end that fits into the faucet line and find the size that fits snuggly. I've used this method many times on damaged flared tubing ends (I just cut off the flared end and slip the cone washer on).

The washer should be as pliable as possible. You don't want a hard rubber one that won't compress.

[xanthous]

Originally Posted by Magiver

that doesn't look like the right seal. I would try to find a compression/cone washer that fits snugly over the tube end. As you tighten the nut it compresses the washer and seals. Something like This.

Bring the end that fits into the faucet line and find the size that fits snuggly. I've used this method many times on damaged flared tubing ends (I just cut off the flared end and slip the cone washer on).

The washer should be as pliable as possible. You don't want a hard rubber one that won't compress.

I have some cone shaped ones that came in an assortment pack with the one I linked to above, but only the tip of the cone fits into the valve stem opening- it's not like it's fitting well up in there. I just presumed that for this reason, it wasn't the right gasket. And it is pliable. I'll take a pic of it & the valve stem opening & post it tonight.

[raindog]

Originally Posted by Magiver

I have never seen a copper-on-copper fitting leak once it's tightened down.

Are you a plumber?

[xanthous]

It's only after I took this picture that I realized this wouldn't even fit snugly around the water line hose anyway- it's too big. So do I just need something that looks like this but that fits snugly around the hose?

[Chief Pedant]

Originally Posted by xanthous

It's only after I took this picture that I realized this wouldn't even fit snugly around the water line hose anyway- it's too big. So do I just need something that looks like this but that fits snugly around the hose?

If I'm interpreting the photos correctly, your flexible supply riser tube is cut at the end that is supposed to fit into the fitting at the faucet end, and at the other end is soldered (??!!) onto the stop, with either some duct tape or tin or something for additional strength.

The kind of supply tube you need to fit into that faucet fitting has a cone on one end. A nut fits over the (plastic or copper) cone and compresses it into the faucet supply tube. I can't find exactly the right picture, but it looks something like this: http://www.hardwareandtools.com/invt/1138205 Any hardware store guy can show you what they are.

Then end of the supply tube riser that fits into the stop can have a variety of fittings which depend on the stop; the one in the picture I linked has a small compression ring (often plastic if the whole riser is plastic) but there could be other types as well--it just has to match the stop. Although my photo doesn't show it, obviously there are nuts at each end that go on before you put the compression ring on.

I don't think your repair can be made without replacing the stops and risers with the proper parts, and it looks to me like one of the supply lines is so close to the wall or cabinet that it will be very tricky.

If you don't have experience sweating copper, the likeliest successful home repair is going to be cutting the stops off and using new compression fittings for new stops. This is very inexpensive--a few dollars--but if you can't get the new stops on all the water in your house will be off. The other unfortunate thing I see is that the clearance is so tight it will be hard to use a copper tube cutter (you can get pretty tiny ones made for close spaces) and when you are cutting copper it's best to use a cutter and not a hacksaw.

I have been very unhelpful so I'll stop now...

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by raindog

Are you a plumber?

No. Just someone who has rehab'd a lot of houses over the years. I was raised around tradesmen and engineers and over time have learned what works and what doesn't. Those old-school plumbers new a thing or two.

I just replaced a bathroom for a plumber. We both worked on the supply lines. It was kinda funny to see one of his joints leak but in all honesty he did most of the soldering and it was a tough compound joint. I wasn't going to tell him his business but I saw it coming. He pulled solder from one joint to the other.

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by xanthous

This is what I think is called the valve stem- see how the gasket thingie isn't as long as the opening is deep? We just get a major leak when we try to tighten it all down this way, and the only thing I can imagine is that there's all kinds of water pressure inside that opening where the gasket is not fitting, and blammo. (And don't even mention what happens when the water line gets moved- then there's a spray!!)

I didn't look close enough at this picture. You're missing the end piece on the flexible tubing. There's nothing for a cone washer to grab onto. You COULD cobble some horrible thing together as a temporary fix but you would be wasting more time than if you did it right and save neither time or money.

Also, your picture of the valve doesn't show a lot of line coming out of the wall so you would be best served by sweating off the fitting to preserve what you have left. If you sweat it off you might as well solder another one in it's place. It's not a good idea to use a compression fitting over old solder (pipe has lost it's smooth surface). Make sure you or the plumber protects the plastic drain line next to it.