After being reminded last night that Stan Musial was named to 24 All-Star games (yes, some years they played 2…) and also in the poll thread on Top-3 players of all time, where Willie Mays got 11 votes and Musial none, I went to compare their careers. Now, I know that Mays was one of the best Center Fielders of all time, and Musial was only adequate defensively, but I was still very surprised by the numbers (check out the triples!) Mays hit almost 200 more HR but also struck out more than 800 more times. Mays stole a lot more bases, but Musial must have been a pretty good baserunner to have 177 triples. This is kind of like comparing a Porsche to a Maserati, but it’s easy to forget just how awesome Musial was.
I would ignore Strikeouts. yes a strike out is worse than a ground out or fly ball as it could potentially advance a runner, but a strikeout is much better than grounding into a Double play.
Yep the deep fields of Sportmans Park hurt Musial’s HR stats but it helped is triples stats.
Mays reputation was help by starting his career in NYC, and as well as his prime was in the 60’s.
Musial was a truly awesome hitter, just as good as Mays and maybe better. He’s underrated today. He was Stan the Man, one of the true greats. You don’t hear as much about him these days because he didn’t play in ESPN Land (e.g. Boston and New York.)
But Mays was Willie Mays in center field. He was every bit as good as his reputation. Musial was a good first baseman AND a good outfielder, but just good. Mays was a genius in cneter field.
One thing forgotten about Musial is that he had exactly the same number of hits at home and on the road (1,815 each.) And Sportsman’s Park had a 33-foot high screen running from the right field foul line 156 feet out to right center, which turned a lot of Musial’s potential home runs (remember, he was a left-handed hitter) into doubles. Musial still managed to hit 252 home runs at home, though.
In addition to more triples, Musial had 725 doubles to Mays’ 523 and more total bases 6,134 to 5,907.
Is a difference of 37 triples over a 22 year period even statistically important? The difference is 8 triples a season for Musial compared to 6.3 for Mays. Given the difference in home runs, steals, and defense, it’s pretty clear that Mays was a far better all around player. I think most people give the edge to players who have a more balanced skill set. I still go with Mays as the best baseball player of all time, and having seen this thread, I’m more comfortable in picking Pujols as my third best of all time.
Musial is underrated for sure, but he wasn’t Mays. Mays was a better power hitter, though Musial hit for a better average, and Mays was way ahead of Musial as a fielder (prime evidence – note that Mays had the presence of mind to throw the ball back to the infield immediately.) and base stealer (Mays’s SB record was phenomenal for a power hitter in the days when the stolen base was considered a waste of time).
Also, though the Polo Grounds had short porches, it was deeper than any other baseball stadium up the middle. The net effect on a player like Mays was negligible – he’d lose some HRs to center and get a few more to left or right, but it’d probably be a wash.
Candlestick hurt him a little – especially the first year – but they moved the fences in after that and his home run rate at home was about the same as it was on the road.
No doubt Musial is a great ballplayer, but he’s not Mays.
The other thing about that Mays catch is that it was in the World Series, not some meaningless July game.
I do agree that Stan the Man is often forgotten because he played in a lower profile market, and his numbers are outstanding- they will stack up to just about anyone else’s pretty well. However, Mays was by far the superior fielder, and played a position that lends itself to a lot more abuse.
Hold on. I’ve already conceded that Mays was a superior player. But don’t make it sound like Musial was a bad defensive player. He wasn’t. He had good speed and good range, and was never a problem in the outfield.
What Musial lacked was a good arm. He was a pretty good pitcher in the minors (he went 33-13) then hurt his arm. But his arm will still strong enough to play left field until he injured his shoulder in 1957. After that, he mostly stuck to right field.
Maybe a net difference of 37 Triples isn’t statistically important to Jules (above) or historical stats aren’t important at all to RealityChuck, but consider these* minor* statistical blips: Musial out-ranks Mays in 11 of MLB’s 13 Hitting Categories, including Slugging and Total Bases. In addition, Musial has the all-time highest Compositing Ranking for MLB’s 13 Hitting Categories: Musial 1st, Ruth 2nd, Gehrig 3rd. For MLB’s 13 Hitting stats: Musial led the NL 66 times, Mays 33 times. Musial led the ML 46 times, Mays 22 times. Additionally, power-hitting Musial holds the MLB record for most consecutive seasons (3.1 PA) to SLG .500 or better - 15 seasons.
There’s lots more, but allow me just a few; Musial leads Mays in almost evey other conceivable offensive category (with the exception of SB): Runs Created; Runs Produced; Team Wins; Times on Base; Offensive Wins; Adjusted OPS; and on and on. And for every net SB that Mays exceeded Musial, Stan recorded 3.2 fewer SO than Mays. That’s 830 more times that Musial could put the ball in play or walk.
Taking nothing away from Willy Mays as a great defensive player, it ticks me off to see Musial’s defensive skills marginalized or dismissed.
Over the course of Musial’s career he played 4 different positions a minimum of 10% of the games. No other power hitter in the history of baseball did anything close to this.
Musial and Mays had very similar careers in terms of years and games played. Musial’s career fielding percentage (all 4 positions) was .898 compared to Mays’ career at .894. For all players that played in 2500 games or more, Musial’s .989 Fielding % is the all-time best in baseball history.
Musial played all three OF positions in a total of 1890 Games; 130 Assists; .984 Fielding %. Mays’ numbers in the OF (mostly CF) are 2842 / 141 / .981.
Musial’s fielding career stands up exceptionally well, even when compared to Mays, considered the best CF of all time.
The record book could very easily lead one to conclude that Stan Musial is not only the best *All Round Hitter *to ever play the game, but equally the best All Round Fielder to ever play the game.
Now you know some things you probably never heard about The Man. If you want more information just let me know.
P.S. I’ve watched a lot of baseball and I’ve never seen a ML outfielder that didn’t have the natural instinct and presence of mind to immediately return the ball to the infield, regardless of the circumstance under which the ball was captured.
Musial was moved from 1st base to the OF around age 40 to make room for youth. This is the opposite direction you might expect an aging player to move but Stan handled it okay! He actually played most of the remainder of his career in LF.
The RF wall in Sportsman Park started at 310 ft from home plate. The wall and pavilion screen reached 45 ft above field level (The Screen Monster). Contrast that with The Green Monster at Fenway Park. LF wall started 310 from home plate and the GM reached 37 ft above field level. Compare these to Yankee Stadium where the RF wall measured 314 from home plate with the wall being maybe 3 ft tall…think Roger Maris.
BTW: Don’t concede Mays being greater than Musial (see above post) unless you subscribe to the geographical bias of the sports media and baseball historians.
If I’m the manager choosing only one, I’d pick Mays over Musial, if for no other reason than the legaendary fielding of Mays in center field. I’m also biased geographically (left-coast-favoring Giants fan). The only position players I’d choose over musial are Ruth and Williams.