Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE)

[commasense]

Originally Posted by Koxinga

I've never heard or read of anyone making the same realization as I did about Beckett's "Waiting For Godot", which I read in high school. For some reason, Vladimir and Estragon refer to one another as "Didi" and "Gogo". Only a year or two later, after I started taking first-year Mandarin at the university, did I realize that those pet names are actually Mandarin for "litte brother" and "big brother".

Is there any reason to think this is anything other than a coincidence? Did Beckett speak or understand Mandarin?

In any case, it's not exactly obvious, as the OP asked.

[WOOKINPANUB]

Originally Posted by corkboard

So is the "Rose" supposed to equate somehow to "anti", or something, or is it meaningless?

Yes and no on the meaningless, I think. I'm probably the last person who should be addressing this, but I'm now understanding it to aknowledge that we're all aware of the famous "Mary's baby", aka The Lord, and that this is a Mary of a different kind with an equally formidable bun in her oven. It kind of makes more sense of you say it as "Rose Mary" with the emphasis on "Rose". It refers to and also differentiates her from the original Mary.

And now that I have wasted everyone's time by belaboring this, I would like to conclude with the explanation that not being Christian, I never think of Christ, on thoses rare occasions that I ponder him at all, as "The Son of Mary" so Mr. Levin's little play on words was lost on my poor, dense soul.

I shall shut up now

[Nobody]

Originally Posted by tdn

Maybe, maybe not.

When I was in college I took a class called Analysis of Song Lyrics. We pulled this one apart. We came up with three (maybe more) explanations for that line:

-Lines of cocaine on a mirror
-Cracks in a rearview mirror after a car crash
-Facial wrinkles

Our conclusion was that it was all three and so packed with meaning. We may have been reading too much into it, though.

Well, after mentioning lines on the mirror it goes "There were lines on her face" which I assume would be the wrinkles. And if you remember, how did you guys come up with cracks from a car crash?

[rowrrbazzle]

Originally Posted by Cliffy

It's easier to see in the full-length version, as the broadcast one cuts a few important bits to fit in an extra commercial -- most importantly, the scene where Macy and Gimbel are fighting over who gets to buy Kris the X-Ray machine so they can look good in front of the press.

From http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_s...et-script.html which purports to be the film dialogue (reformatting and minor corrections by me). It matches my memory, though, and has been in the movie every time I've seen it.

MACY: Just a minute. I have something I'd like to give our friend here. This is a little something to show my appreciation for all you've done.

KRIS: Thank you, Mr. Macy. Ooh! That's very kind of you. I didn't think you were that generous.

GIMBEL(?) That's a bit of money. What are you going to do with it?

KRIS: Well, I have a friend. A doctor. He's been very kind to me. He needs an x-ray machine.

MACY: I don't think that's going to be enough.

GIMBEL: I'll make up the difference.

MACY: Buy it through the store. Get [?]% discount.

GIMBEL: I can get it for cost.

[The three look at each other, then laugh.]

I'm not disputing your point. I'm only asking what evidence for your point was cut from that part of the movie.

[Sauron]

I remember this scene, too, rowrrbazzle ... there were photographers in the scene, taking pictures.

I always wondered why Macy's would be selling x-ray machines.

[bup]

Originally Posted by Sauron

I remember this scene, too, rowrrbazzle ... there were photographers in the scene, taking pictures.

I always wondered why Macy's would be selling x-ray machines.

I don't think they sold them - they used to use them in shoe-selling departments. Yes, really. So the store would have a way to buy them as equipment.

[tdn]

Originally Posted by Nobody

And if you remember, how did you guys come up with cracks from a car crash?

Keep in mind that this was like 27 years ago, so my memory isn't exactly fresh.

But I think it was life in the fast lane, you're driving really fast, so you could crash and break a mirror.

I think.

[Clothahump]

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

Young Frankenstein: In Inspector Kemp's first scene at the town meeting, he breathes on his monocle, polishes it on his jacket, and then puts it on the eye that has an eyepatch on it.

And I think there a later scene where the torch-bearing mob is out looking for the monster and he puts a finger to his mouth to shoosh them that it's his left arm that's wooden. (All the other times it's his right.) I'll have to see it again to confirm that. The eyepatch probably changes sides, too.

Igor's hump does.


Sorry....Eye-gore.

[Nobody]

Originally Posted by tdn

Keep in mind that this was like 27 years ago, so my memory isn't exactly fresh.

But I think it was life in the fast lane, you're driving really fast, so you could crash and break a mirror.

I think.

I see what you're getting at. I'm still sticking to cocaine*, but I see what you're getting at.


I'm talking about interpreting the song lyrics, of course

[TBG]

Originally Posted by Hippy Hollow

Yeah, I've asked twice about the A in Audi A4/6/8. I still don't get it. For anyone who does, could you please explain?

The A stands for Audi. At least that's all I can figure.

[Koxinga]

Originally Posted by commasense

Is there any reason to think this is anything other than a coincidence? Did Beckett speak or understand Mandarin?

In any case, it's not exactly obvious, as the OP asked.

It was obvious to me, looking back after a single semester of first-year Chinese.

Two characters who exhibit an older brother-younger brother relationship, calling each other the exact terms used in Chinese to describe such a relationship, gives me an inkling that Beckett may have picked up a dictionary or asked a Chinese friend about those words at some point in writing the play.

[apollonia]

I had just assumed they were nicknames rising out of Vladimir--Didi, and Estragon--Gogo. At least, that was the party line when I studied the play in a British Literature class. And I hated it anyway, so my memory is probably not sparkling.

[digs]

Originally Posted by FalconFinder

I OWNED my Saturn for more than 5 years before I finally noticed the logo was a portion of the planet!

John Byrne, in the intro to his revamping of the Superman comics, told how for the longest time he saw Supey's chest shield as two fishy shapes swimming past each other... and then finally "reversed" the perception and saw... the letter S!

This is the guy who at the time was, if not THE Supes artist, was at the least drawing a LOT of Our Favorite Kryptonian Exchange Student.

He went on to explain that even though the S shield makes sense now, he still draws Superman's logo as two fishy shapes swimming past each other... wow.

[bink]

In XTC's Senses Working Overtime, he says "all the world is football-shaped". It took me a long time to realize he's English and meant a sphere!

[statsman1982]

I have two.

The first is the jingle at the end of Kay Jewelers ads--"Every kiss begins with Kay." I never realized until this past Christmas that they were trying to make a play on words: The letter "K" is spelled "kay" phonetically.

Also, the Neighborhood Watch eye. I didn't realize it was an eye with the pupil off center, you know, as when someone is "WATCHING". until I was a teenager. I always saw it as a spinner of some sort, the pupil being the axis on which the spinner spun.

[Aspidistra]

When I was a kid, I devoured the Narnia books multiple times in a row.

In The voyage of the Dawn Treader there's a section from Eustace's diary where Lucy gives him some of her scant water ration explaining "girls don't get as thirsty as boys.". To which his response is that he always thought as much and that this sort of thing "ought to be more generally known".

So it was about 3 or 4 years of me mentally shouting at the book "Yes We Do you silly bint!" before I realised - duh - she was lying to make him feel better, and he was so clueless that it was a completely wasted effort, since he was selfish enough to have taken it even if he DID realise she was as thirsty as him

[Telperion]

Originally Posted by TBG

The A stands for Audi. At least that's all I can figure.

Aluminium, I think. The A-line was introduced when they replaced the steel platform with an all-aluminium space frame, which was reportedly the first implementation of one in a mass-market car.

[corkboard]

Originally Posted by Telperion

Aluminium, I think. The A-line was introduced when they replaced the steel platform with an all-aluminium space frame, which was reportedly the first implementation of one in a mass-market car.

I really hope it's this, because if the Audi A6 is supposed to mean "Audi Audi 6", I'd have to direct a major rolleyes their way. And they'd be quaking in their boots, yo.

[Arien]

Originally Posted by Roadfood

Um, no, I didn't. Over the years, every now and then when seeing the logo, the thought would flit across my mind as to why a car named "Infiniti" had a stylized "A" in a circle for it's logo . . .

But in defense of my brain cells, I had no trouble spotting the arrow in the Fed Ex logo.

Wikipedia says the Infiniti logo is a stylized representation of Mt. Fuji.

[Telperion]

Originally Posted by corkboard

I really hope it's this, because if the Audi A6 is supposed to mean "Audi Audi 6", I'd have to direct a major rolleyes their way. And they'd be quaking in their boots, yo.

I'm pretty sure. While I haven't been able to find a definite cite for it so far (I guess they must relish the mystery of it.), I did find out yesterday that the A2 concept model was given the internal designation Al2 for utilizing the second iteration of the aluminium frame.

[digs]

Can I just point out that it'd be nice if people here explained what they mean with their cryptic "answers" (that are really just questions), before they hit "Post and Take Off For Points Unknown"?

How much of this thread has been taken up with "What did you mean by Audi A2?" No reply. "I wonder what they meant by Audi A2?";"Here's what I think they meant by Audi A2."; "I figured out the Audi A2!" "No, I know what they reeeeeally meant!"

I mean, how rude would it be if I walked up to you at a party and said "I know where Amelia Earhart is! Just wait right here for a minute..." and then ran away. Wouldn't you get a little impatient after a day or two? Especially if those two days were full of other people coming up and guessing at what I would've said if I'd stuck around? Or giving their pet Amelia Theories*.

So PLEASE, don't just say "I finally figured out what 'a movie star, the professor and Mary Anne...' really means!" without telling us.

* Feel free to substitute Fermat's Last Theorem, The Kessel Run, The GOP's 9/11 Plot, or Obama's French Birth Certificate, depending on your Geek Quotient and IQ.

[rowrrbazzle]

Sometime in the past year I realized something about "West Side Story". The notes for the word "Maria" in the song of that name, C-F#-G, are the same notes as on the phrase "Who knows?" in "Something's Coming" with the last two notes in a lower octave. In addition, the opening 3 notes of the musical, G-C-F#, are the same, just starting on the G instead of the C.

I thought this should've been noticed before, so I Googled a bit before posting this, and it had. I also found the original concept of the musical was for a Jewish girl and a Catholic Italian-American boy, with the anti-Semitism of the Catholics as a source of conflict. They eventually rejected this because the subject had already been explored in "Abie's Irish Rose" and similar productions.

I also came across this page, which contains a letter that reports Bernstein claimed the whole musical was based around the G-C-F# notes. The letter also claims that those notes are a remnant of the Jewish/Catholic concept because that's one of the soundings of the shofar on Jewish New Year! I did find one shofar rendition on YouTube that was closer to C-F#-G.

From the letter: "The overture is vivid tone-painting of terrifying Jew-baiting, for example, subjecting this shofar theme to being mocked and chased by the other instruments."

[MrSquishy]

I think you might have missed the first word in the thread title.

That's ironic, isn't it?

[Koxinga]

Maybe someone can start a thread on unique epiphanies we've had on works of art. I've had no such ephiphany except didi/gogo, which noone else seems to believe, so I'm afraid I won't be starting it. And I'm lazy.

[Baal Houtham]

Originally Posted by bink

In XTC's Senses Working Overtime, he says "all the world is football-shaped". It took me a long time to realize he's English and meant a sphere!

Hey!

[TBG]

Originally Posted by statsman1982

The first is the jingle at the end of Kay Jewelers ads--"Every kiss begins with Kay." I never realized until this past Christmas that they were trying to make a play on words: The letter "K" is spelled "kay" phonetically.

Once I realized that, I could no longer hear those commercials without rewriting it in my head, every time it's sung, as "The word kiss begins with K"

[eleanorigby]

This is really embarrassing...


But it took me several rereads of the first Harry Potter book to realize that Diagon Alley was a play on diagonally.... <hangs head in shame>


I also (this has nothing to do with art, but could arguably be more important to day to day life) only recently realized that all the Tupperware I inherited from my sister have coordinating numerals on them. I used to just curse and try 3-4 lids, but then I noticed that the #2 bowl has a #2 lid....


And I have a graduate degree!

Re West Side Story: we had to "analyze" it for 8th grade music class (it and Carmen; not at the same time). My music teacher brought up the repetition of notes and themes and keys etc. It's been too long for me to remember much, but at the time we all thought, "cool" for about 5 minutes. (we were 13). This is the first I've heard of anti-Semite conspiracy.

[eleanorigby]

Originally Posted by corkboard

So is the "Rose" supposed to equate somehow to "anti", or something, or is it meaningless?

Here's my WAG: Rose, as in he rose (came back or decided to visit us sinners or whatever). Mary's baby rose. But it's not Mary's baby (Jesus), he's the anti-Christ. That's all I got.

[Cliffy]

Originally Posted by RealityChuck

Considering the fact that he had no way to get to the house, yes. Kris didn't drive, and he was only available to get there the night after the trial, when there was no one available to drive him (the characters were all with family).

I think you're demanding rather more precise measurements from the screenwriters than are reasonable. But anyway, they had cabs in 1947.

Originally Posted by rowrrbazzle

I'm not disputing your point. I'm only asking what evidence for your point was cut from that part of the movie.

I'm pretty sure at least part of that scene is cut in the syndicated version. I might be wrong. Definitely the first part of the scene where the guy from Chico and the Man discovers Susie's letter addressed to Kris at the courthouse gets cut.

More recently, I haven't been seeing it on broadcast at all; it shows up on TCM, and they of course show the whole thing. But a few years ago, the syndicated version was the most common one to see.

Anyway, that's about all I have to say on the subject.

--Cliffy

[KneadToKnow]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

This is really embarrassing...


But it took me several rereads of the first Harry Potter book to realize that Diagon Alley was a play on diagonally.... <hangs head in shame>

You are not alone.

Have you figured out Nocturne Alley yet?

[PeskiPiksi]

Pssst...it's Knockturn Alley.

And also Grimmauld Place.

And Hagrid, Dumbledore, and Sirius all have "color" names. (Rubeus=red, Albus=white, Black=um, black.) It has something to do with alchemy, but don't ask me what.

[PastAllReason]

Originally Posted by PeskiPiksi

Pssst...it's Knockturn Alley.

Well, geez, I never got "nocturnally" before now. Thanks! Adding one more about Harry Potter, I DID get that the mirror Erised was Desire written backwards, or more exactly, I guess, how it would appear written in a mirror.

[KneadToKnow]

Originally Posted by PeskiPiksi

Pssst...it's Knockturn Alley.

I knew that didn't look right. I blame the Braves blowing their 3-2 lead in the 8th for my distraction.

[digs]

THIS is what I'm on about! [/python] Don't just say "And also Grimmauld Place, wink, wink!" without explaining. I had to take time out from my hectic doing-nothing evening to google it. Most sites made no reference to a pun... did you mean Grim Old Place?

[DWMarch]

Originally Posted by Tim R. Mortiss

It took me years to realize that "Brown Eyed Girl" was actually about anal sex.

No no, it's "Hurts So Good" that's about anal. Sometimes love don't feel like it should.

Apologies to all who will now never be able to hear that song without thinking of anal sex.

[mshar253]

Originally Posted by digs

THIS is what I'm on about! [/python] Don't just say "And also Grimmauld Place, wink, wink!" without explaining. I had to take time out from my hectic doing-nothing evening to google it. Most sites made no reference to a pun... did you mean Grim Old Place?

I googled, saw nothing, then said it to myself about five times. I'm sure he meant "Grim Old Place."

[MOIDALIZE]

So Rosebud was his sled. Ohhhhhhhhhh, I get it.

And I can't believe it took me so long to figure out what was in the briefcase in Pulp Fiction. It was so obvious!

[JohnT]

Last Friday, my wife realized that the song Rapture, by Blondie, was called that because of the rap in the second half of the song.

[gigi]

Originally Posted by MOIDALIZE

So Rosebud was his sled. Ohhhhhhhhhh, I get it.

And I can't believe it took me so long to figure out what was in the briefcase in Pulp Fiction. It was so obvious!

Will you be telling us what Bill Murray whispered to Scarlett Johannson?

[E-Sabbath]

What was in the briefcase in Pulp Fiction? The same thing that was in the trunk in Repo Men, geez.

[RealityChuck]

Originally Posted by Cliffy

I think you're demanding rather more precise measurements from the screenwriters than are reasonable. But anyway, they had cabs in 1947.

Not measurements -- plot logic.

In any case the argument that Kris is Santa is simple: the theme of the movie is clearly and simply that we must believe in things even when there's no evidence to back them up. Consider:

Fred Gailey: Look Doris, someday you're going to find that your way of facing this realistic world just doesn't work. And when you do, don't overlook those lovely intangibles. You'll discover those are the only things that are worthwhile.
-------------------------------
Doris: Faith is believing when common sense tells you not to. Don't you see? It's not just Kris that's on trial, it's everything he stands for. It's kindness and joy and love and all the other intangibles.
-------------------------------
Doris: Would you please tell her that you're not really Santa Claus, that actually is no such person?
Kris Kringle: Well, I hate to disagree with you, but not only IS there such a person, but here I am to prove it.
_________________________
Susan: I believe... I believe... It's silly, but I believe.
---------------------------------------
Doris Walker: I was wrong when I told you that, Susie. You must believe in Mr. Kringle and keep right on doing it. You must have faith in him.

If, as you assert, Kris isn't Santa, then the movie is denying its own message.

Even more telling is this line:

Susan Walker (referring to the house): If you're really Santa Claus, you can get it for me. And if you can't, you're only a nice man with a white beard like mother says.

Since Kris does get it for her -- or, at least, leads them to the house and has visited it, in the terms of the movie, he's really Santa Claus.

Insisting that he's not Santa is like being Doris in the beginning of the film. Or worse, it's being Sawyer (the one person who never accepts Kris is Santa). If you want to be Sawyer, that's your decision, but since he's shown to be a neurotic, vindictive, and small-minded little man -- and pretty much the only villain of the movie -- that's clearly not what the movie is intending.

If you were right, then Sawyer would be the hero. He's not, and thus you're wrong.

[commasense]

And to add one more thing to RealityChuck's excellent summary, I'll just say that it's perfectly possible to be an atheist, rationalist, and skeptic who doesn't take anything on faith, and yet believe that the 1947 Miracle on 34th Street is a charming and delightful minor classic of cinema.

[eleanorigby]

Originally Posted by PastAllReason

Well, geez, I never got "nocturnally" before now. Thanks! Adding one more about Harry Potter, I DID get that the mirror Erised was Desire written backwards, or more exactly, I guess, how it would appear written in a mirror.

Yep-I got Knockturn Alley (which makes the Diagon all the more inexplicable--I kept thinking [when I thought of it at all] as some play on dragon or diamond). Knockturn is also a double pun--doesn't it also mean something to do with seances or carnival "fun" houses?


The THOUGHT of Hagrid being anywhere close to anything to do with alchemy makes me shudder. Why give him the name of Rubeus?


Slytherin is a play on slithering snakes. No clue where she got Hufflepuff, though. It sounds more like that thing Ginny buys at her brother's shop and names Arnold, rather than a distinguished house of the premier wizarding school...

[TubaDiva]

Originally Posted by The New and Improved Superman

Preposterous! They can't be the same people. Anybody with eyes can see that the Scarecrow, Tin Man & Cowardly Lion are in full technicolor, while the mere farmhands are in black & white!




Anyway, one little detail that I'd never noticed before about 'Oz' (until about the umpteen-millionth time I saw it) was the scene in which Dorothy & crew are entering the black woods on their way to kill the Wicked Witch. The Scarecrow is carrying a large mallet, and the Tin Man has a revolver(!) b ut missing his axe. Both weapons mysteriously vanish before the flying monkeys attack. (I couldn't find an appropriate clip on youtube - but if you have the DVD, you can check it out for yourself.)

Also, there is the legendary (and false) UL about the munchkin who hanged himself. (Long story short: It was actually a large bird.) I had seen the 'incriminating' shadow before, and knew the story. But it wasn't until I read Snopes' article debunking the myth that I ever noticed the birds wandering around in the background. And they're all over that set!

You don't have to go to strangers to get the straight dope:

Can a Munchkin be seen committing suicide in The Wizard of Oz?

[KneadToKnow]

Originally Posted by gigi

Will you be telling us what Bill Murray whispered to Scarlett Johannson?

He was whispering the same thing I sometimes whisper in my girlfriend's ear:

Everybody who can see me thinks I'm whispering something naughty in your ear right now.

Makes her giggle in the most deliciously naughty way.

[Crawlspace]

Two from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory:

- The ride on the Hsaw Aknow (Wonka Wash) occurs right before they go into the TV room. The TV room is a clean room. The ride is used to ensure that whomever goes into the room is clean.

- Almost everything in Wonka's office is split in half lengthwise. When he gets angry at Grandpa Joe, he starts reading him the contract, "The undersigned waives all rights and privileges here in contained et cetera et cetra." Looking closely, the contract is split in half length wise. The et cetera's are just place holders for the missing half.

[TubaDiva]

Originally Posted by corkboard

So is the "Rose" supposed to equate somehow to "anti", or something, or is it meaningless?

In the Catholic faith, Mary, Mother of God, is often referred to as the Lady of the Rose, or Lady of the Roses.

(Those early years of parochial school finally pay off. Many years later.)

[Ellen Cherry]

I think you're thinking of St. Therese of Lisieux.

[Larry Mudd]

How heavily Star Wars was cribbed from The Wizard of Oz.

Eventually, I noticed that the "knock over the guards, take their uniforms, and march into the prison" gag was played almost identically... and then all of the other parallels became obvious.

[jackdavinci]

Not something I realized but something I was told - in Young Frankenstein the reason a horse neighs everytime Frau Blucah's name is said is because Blucah means "glue" in German.