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  #51  
Old 07-15-2014, 11:40 PM
Gatopescado Gatopescado is online now
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Originally Posted by jnglmassiv View Post
This really defies belief.
Actually, I think it is more like unbelievable.
Inconceivable, even.

A female ham radio operator?
Get out.
Jeez, I just burst out laughing!

But, ya know, she may have been "ritually mutilated".....
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  #52  
Old 07-15-2014, 11:49 PM
runningdude runningdude is offline
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Originally Posted by buckgully View Post
This is beautifully weird.

So it's the headstone that was ritually mutilated, not the person? And instead of just chiseling something out, they actually chiseled in 'ritually mutilated'? Perhaps they were dictating?

I wasn't able to find Roberta, but I did find Charles Angel on findagrave.com:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...706158&df=all&
My only other idea is a that the women was married and both names were originally added to the original stone. The stone was then "censored" by carving the words "ritually mutilated" over the husband's name. The other plaque was at the former husband's place of burial, directing anyone interesting in the family's lineage to the wife's stone.
  #53  
Old 07-15-2014, 11:55 PM
susan susan is offline
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Perhaps it's something about "even when I'm dead, I'll tell the world that you abused me"?
  #54  
Old 07-16-2014, 12:44 AM
TruCelt TruCelt is offline
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I would guess that she was mutilated for whatever religious reason (probably genital, every religion has its converts from other cultures) and that she purchased a plot for her parts, with the intention of being reunited with them at her death.

The trauma being what it was, she wanted to make the point that she could be reunited, but not restored.

It sounds as though she was subsequently buried elsewhere, and that cemetery refused to allow her previous stone (to the relief of her family, one might suppose) so, the initial plot being bought and paid for, the referral stone was placed.

While it's an unusual combination of name and religion, Occam's razor suggests this answer.
  #55  
Old 07-16-2014, 07:05 AM
Ignotus Ignotus is offline
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Nobody seems to have commented much upon the, in my view, truly remarkable fact that this woman had her gravestone erected at least six months before her death. I have never heard of such a practice, but maybe it's not really uncommon in the US?

Here's another thought: those words - still - ritually mutilated - could they be referring to, like, Jesus, rather than the deceased?
  #56  
Old 07-16-2014, 07:27 AM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is offline
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Originally Posted by Hampshire View Post
The Mound Cemetery has a website and a contact for the cemetery manager. I'm tempted to email him and ask him about it.
Do it. You're probably not the first one to ask. He'll probably welcome the inquiry, as most people do inquiries about their work.
  #57  
Old 07-16-2014, 07:34 AM
runningdude runningdude is offline
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Originally Posted by Ignotus View Post
Nobody seems to have commented much upon the, in my view, truly remarkable fact that this woman had her gravestone erected at least six months before her death. I have never heard of such a practice, but maybe it's not really uncommon in the US? ...
It is not uncommon, particularly if one spouse predeceases the other, and they intended to be buried next to each other (my theory is the couple divorced, and the stone was censored).

Plus, if she had known she was on her way out (she was only 64 at the start of this thread, but could have been ill enough to know), she may have simply made her own arrangements.

Last edited by runningdude; 07-16-2014 at 07:36 AM.
  #58  
Old 07-16-2014, 07:39 AM
runningdude runningdude is offline
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Originally Posted by TruCelt View Post
...
While it's an unusual combination of name and religion, Occam's razor suggests this answer.
It doesn't really fit the facts, as a plaque in another cemetery described it as a "censored" tombstone.
  #59  
Old 07-16-2014, 09:59 AM
TruCelt TruCelt is offline
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Originally Posted by runningdude View Post
It doesn't really fit the facts, as a plaque in another cemetery described it as a "censored" tombstone.
Right. She was buried there, instead of in the original plot as she expected. The second cemetery would not approve the stone with the reference to ritual mutilation, (censored it) so she (or her executor) had the reference stone erected instead.

This would all tend to indicate that she was not buried with her parts. Or maybe they were moved? It's all so weird, butt hat's the only answer which makes sense to me.


Obligatory George Carlin link: Censored Gravestone

Last edited by TruCelt; 07-16-2014 at 10:03 AM.
  #60  
Old 07-16-2014, 10:55 AM
Ignotus Ignotus is offline
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Originally Posted by Ignotus View Post
Nobody seems to have commented much upon the, in my view, truly remarkable fact that this woman had her gravestone erected at least six months before her death. I have never heard of such a practice, but maybe it's not really uncommon in the US? ...
It is not uncommon, particularly if one spouse predeceases the other, and they intended to be buried next to each other (my theory is the couple divorced, and the stone was censored).

Plus, if she had known she was on her way out (she was only 64 at the start of this thread, but could have been ill enough to know), she may have simply made her own arrangements.
Today 02:27 PM


I am aware of the existence of family graves, where names, dates of birth and dates of death get subsequently added for each passing of a family member, but have you actually, ever, seen an erected gravestone with the name (and possibly date of birth) of a still living person?

If the woman had the stone erected herself while still alive, it looks to me like this would have been a most extraordinary measure. If some other party had it erected for her in her lifetime, this would seem (at least in my culture) as a gross insult, if not a downright threat (much like saying "You'll need this soon!").

And I think graveyard management staff, at least in most parts of Europe , would approve of neither.
  #61  
Old 07-16-2014, 11:04 AM
joyfool joyfool is offline
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In America, it's quite common to erect a headstone before you die (especially if you are part of a couple) and list only your date of birth. A lot of the people who do this are trying to plan their estate in advance so that their loved ones don't have to do it while they are grieving, not incur all the costs associated with their passing.
  #62  
Old 07-16-2014, 12:16 PM
lynndavis lynndavis is offline
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I am going to ask the cemetery caretaker at the Crystal Lake Cemetery as soon as have chance. I live just across the street. No explanation offered yet seems plausible. I can't find any record of an obit.
I will post my findings. Thanks for all of your interest.
L
  #63  
Old 07-16-2014, 12:42 PM
RivkahChaya RivkahChaya is offline
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Maybe the marker referencing the grave at Mound Cemetery was placed there because she couldn't be buried in Crystal Lake with her family for some reason (she was "censored").
Well, one reason you might not get buried where you'd planned, is if you die suddenly (or in an accident) while you are out of state (say, on vacation), and you have some kind of advance directive against being embalmed, being embalmed is counter to your religious practices, or your family decides against it-- maybe your body is badly mangled in an accident, and embalming is difficult (therefore, expensive), or impossible. I'm pretty sure there are laws in most states that you can't bring an unembalmed body in for burial. There may be exceptions, if the actual travel distance is short, or maybe some states allow it, but I'm pretty sure that there's a rule against flying unembalmed bodies, so you'd have to transfer over the road (or maybe by train).

Some issue regarding embalming doesn't answer the original question about the odd inscription, but in could explain why she wasn't buried in the one location where the other Lukanens are buried-- and I can see someone who believes she was ritually mutilated or abused not wanting to be embalmed after death.
  #64  
Old 07-16-2014, 01:42 PM
Rachellelogram Rachellelogram is offline
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I did a google search for Roberta J Lukanen and found this:

http://www.advancedbackgroundchecks....anen/419686167

It sounds spammy, but it looks legit with an address, age, and phone number (just don't press the button to order a background report). The part that rings a bell regarding potential mutilation, to me, is this:

Also known as:

Robert E Lukanen


Based on that, I'm wondering if it could be a transgender issue. Or, maybe Roberta was born intersexed and was surgically altered into a girl. Or maybe the website is just wrong, but it's a jumping-off point.

Last edited by Rachellelogram; 07-16-2014 at 01:43 PM.
  #65  
Old 07-16-2014, 02:06 PM
RivkahChaya RivkahChaya is offline
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Originally Posted by Rachellelogram View Post
Based on that, I'm wondering if it could be a transgender issue. Or, maybe Roberta was born intersexed and was surgically altered into a girl. Or maybe the website is just wrong, but it's a jumping-off point.
That would make sense, because 1945 is the right year for that. Pretty much from the time such surgery could be done safely, until about 1990, when people who had had it done to them as children, began to speak out as adults, standard treatment for babies born with ambiguous genitalia was to alter them to make them "girls," regardless of whether they had a uterus, or undescended testes. It was just too difficult to surgically construct a penis, and the common wisdom was that a penisless boy (or even one with micropenis or deformed penis) in a locker room would have too much social difficulty. If the child didn't have ovaries, then "she" started taking hormones at puberty.

It still makes the word "ritual" a little odd, but I suppose it's fewer letters than "in service to social mores," and engravers probably charge by the letter.
  #66  
Old 07-16-2014, 02:21 PM
joyfool joyfool is offline
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Originally Posted by RivkahChaya View Post
It still makes the word "ritual" a little odd, but I suppose it's fewer letters than "in service to social mores," and engravers probably charge by the letter.

If that's the case, maybe the use of "ritual" is because for most of her life, she considered it still done more often than not. Which, of course, I do believe was your point. Heh.
  #67  
Old 07-16-2014, 03:16 PM
Ignotus Ignotus is offline
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faithfool In America, it's quite common to erect a headstone before you die (especially if you are part of a couple) and list only your date of birth. A lot of the people who do this are trying to plan their estate in advance so that their loved ones don't have to do it while they are grieving, not incur all the costs associated with their passing.


Thank you, ignorance fought! How different we are.

Now, we have to construct a coherent story to cover all known facts with this kept in our minds. That might not be so easy. Ideas?


Originally Posted by Rachellelogram
Based on that, I'm wondering if it could be a transgender issue. Or, maybe Roberta was born intersexed and was surgically altered into a girl. Or maybe the website is just wrong, but it's a jumping-off point.


Yes, it would totally fit the bill - as would, I suppose, lobotomy and forced sterilization. Only, they fail to explain the second marker. Why was her(/his?) tombstone moved - or, at least, not raised in its original, intended place? And why did the cemetery management feel a need to point out this change?
  #68  
Old 07-16-2014, 03:24 PM
Labdad Labdad is offline
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...but have you actually, ever, seen an erected gravestone with the name (and possibly date of birth) of a still living person?
slight highjack - I had a cousin who not only erected her gravestone while she was still living, she put the future date of her death on it. And this future date indicated she lived to be 139!!!. She was rather eccentric, to say the least.

When she did in fact die, we asked her daughter if she was going to change the date to reflect the actual date of death. She said, no - having her mom's death date some fifty years in the future was rather sweet.
  #69  
Old 07-16-2014, 05:23 PM
susan susan is offline
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Back when the AIDS Memorial Quilt was quite an active project in the early 1990's, I saw a number of Asian panels (possibly made by people to commemorate themselves) that provided a date of death as "20--", suggesting the aspiration of/symbolic magic associated with living at least 10 more years.
  #70  
Old 07-16-2014, 07:47 PM
davidm davidm is offline
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Thinking about this more, it seems like a compromise to some sort of legal dispute. "You can't be buried in our cemetery, but we'll acknowledge, and direct people to, your grave in this other local cemetery".
  #71  
Old 07-16-2014, 09:30 PM
drewtwo99 drewtwo99 is offline
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Originally Posted by jnglmassiv View Post
This really defies belief.
Actually, I think it is more like unbelievable.
Inconceivable, even.

A female ham radio operator?
Get out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachellelogram View Post
Also known as:
Robert E Lukanen
I think we solved the mystery. There could never be a female Ham radio operator. jnglmassiv figured it out and didn't even know it. Roberta was evidently genitally mutilated due to some intersex issue, and lived part of her life as Robert, a ham radio operator, and died Roberta, still ritually mutilated. Interesting mystery. Hopefully we get confirmation from resident dopers of the area.

Last edited by drewtwo99; 07-16-2014 at 09:31 PM.
  #72  
Old 07-16-2014, 10:55 PM
48Willys 48Willys is offline
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Originally Posted by drewtwo99 View Post
I think we solved the mystery. There could never be a female Ham radio operator. jnglmassiv figured it out and didn't even know it. Roberta was evidently genitally mutilated due to some intersex issue, and lived part of her life as Robert, a ham radio operator, and died Roberta, still ritually mutilated. Interesting mystery. Hopefully we get confirmation from resident dopers of the area.
Bolding & underlining mine.

Well, my big sister had a Ham license from 1972 until she died in 2001. She would be surprised to know this. As would my cousin who has had hers for over 45 years.

I know, I know, You are just kidding!!

Back to the original issue. What is up with Roberta's headstone? Why does not someone call the folks who are running either of the graveyards? This oddity should be different enough that the entire staff there should know the story!! I bet that the groundskeeper knows the story. Go back and look for him/her. They will be the one on the tractor. C'mon here folks.

Hmmmm, I wonder how late they staff the phones? Do they have a message board or some such? This can not be that hard. This isn't rocket science!

I am blown away that someone saw the headstone six years ago and did not inquire about it. I would have been so curious that I would have had to call her or the "powers that be". The worst that could happen is that she gets mad at you. If she were ashamed of whatever "Ritualistic Mutational" is, she would not have put it on her headstone. The "Still" really has my curiosity peaked.

Like I tell my boys & grand kids, if you do not ask, you will not get what you want.
  #73  
Old 07-17-2014, 08:55 AM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is offline
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Originally Posted by 48Willys View Post

Back to the original issue. What is up with Roberta's headstone? Why does not someone call the folks who are running either of the graveyards? This oddity should be different enough that the entire staff there should know the story!! I bet that the groundskeeper knows the story. Go back and look for him/her. They will be the one on the tractor. C'mon here folks.
I nominate you to call. All in favor?... motion carries by acclamation!

Here's the info:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynndavis View Post
I was walking at the Crystal lake Cemetery and a grave marker caught my eye as it had so much writing on it:

The Censored Marker of
ROBERTA J. LUKANEN
Can be viewed at
MOUND CEMETERY
69th Avenue North at Palmer Lake Drive
Brooklyn Center, Minn.
Section 3 Block 18 Lot 1 Grave 2

Last edited by ThelmaLou; 07-17-2014 at 08:57 AM.
  #74  
Old 07-17-2014, 01:26 PM
48Willys 48Willys is offline
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OK, Here is the Straight Dope! I talked to a representative of Mound Cemetery. I was told that she had indeed been born intersexed . According to the custom at the time she was surgically made into a female. In her lifetime this "Ritualistic Mutilation" upset her terribly.

She wanted to tell the world about this, to her and many others, Barbaric custom. Thus, she wanted her headstone to relay this information. The "Still" means that the mutilation can not be reversed and she is still mutated. I suspect, but do not know, that since still is shorter then forever, Still was used on the headstone.

The representative I talked to said that she was a wonderful person and a pleasure to talk to. They were happy to comply with her wishes as to her headstone.

The other cemetery, where many of her family are buried, refused to have this headstone in their facility. Thus, the "Censored". They did agree to put the plaque directing folks to her actual resting place on what would have been her grave.

This was agreeable to Roberta and it was done.

Editorial; To me this seems like an excellent solution to a difficult situation. Bravo to the folks at Mounds Cemetary! Good work folks! If I had to choose a cemetary in that area, they would be the ones! I do beleive that the other cemetary is within its rights to refuse to have this headstone in their facility.
  #75  
Old 07-17-2014, 01:46 PM
RivkahChaya RivkahChaya is offline
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Thanks!
  #76  
Old 07-17-2014, 01:46 PM
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Thanks, 48Willys. Great work!
  #77  
Old 07-17-2014, 01:48 PM
Erdosain Erdosain is offline
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Props to 48Willys for making the phone call to solve this mystery. I was intrigued and stumped. It's a shame the Crystal Lake cementary refused to let her have the headstone she wanted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isilder View Post
Perhaps she is labelling infant genital "correction" as erroneous as "genital mutilation" and thus uses the most severe label.
And props to Isilder for being the first to guess the right answer.
  #78  
Old 07-17-2014, 01:54 PM
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Excellent work, 48Willys, and I second the nod to Isilder. It's awesome when a mystery is solved.
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:06 PM
joyfool joyfool is offline
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To late to add: Going back over the thread, I see that Rachel mentioned the possibility of her being intersexed too. Very good.
  #80  
Old 07-17-2014, 05:09 PM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is offline
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Excellent work, 48Willys!

BTW, that was a test, which you passed with flying colors. For your next assignment . . .
  #81  
Old 07-17-2014, 07:36 PM
drewtwo99 drewtwo99 is offline
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Another great example of the Dope being able to solve any mystery, no matter how old. This a 5 year old thread! The person hadn't even died when it was started.
  #82  
Old 07-17-2014, 10:10 PM
runningdude runningdude is offline
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runningdude
...
I am aware of the existence of family graves, where names, dates of birth and dates of death get subsequently added for each passing of a family member, but have you actually, ever, seen an erected gravestone with the name (and possibly date of birth) of a still living person?
...
Yes. It is so common that I am actually surprised to learn that it is vanishingly rare elsewhere.
  #83  
Old 07-17-2014, 10:18 PM
runningdude runningdude is offline
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I thought for sure this would be some routine, albeit rare marker. What a tragic tale.
  #84  
Old 07-17-2014, 10:24 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is offline
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Yes. It is so common that I am actually surprised to learn that it is vanishingly rare elsewhere.
Yeah, not unusual here, either.
  #85  
Old 07-17-2014, 11:59 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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In America, it's quite common to erect a headstone before you die (especially if you are part of a couple) and list only your date of birth. A lot of the people who do this are trying to plan their estate in advance so that their loved ones don't have to do it while they are grieving, not incur all the costs associated with their passing.
Yup, I know widows who have done this: set up a headstone for themselves (with a blank date of death, to be filled in later) when they set up the one for their husband. Killing two stones with one buried, so to speak.

However, I think Ignotus is correct that even here in the US, it would be seen as rather insulting and/or threatening to put up a "placeholder" marker for a living person except at his/her own instigation.

This was a fascinating story! Good work.

Last edited by Kimstu; 07-18-2014 at 12:01 AM.
  #86  
Old 07-18-2014, 10:06 AM
RivkahChaya RivkahChaya is offline
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Yeah, not unusual here, either.
In Judaism, markers are put up on the first anniversary of the death, to mark the end of the formal mourning period, but it's still not unusual for people to purchase plots ahead of time. I volunteered some time in our synagogue office, and pretty much every retired couple who were pretty sure they weren't going anywhere else, had a plot purchased. People want to spare their families the expense, and people whose families may not be as observant want to make sure they are buried in a Jewish cemetery. For all I know, some people may have their markers paid for, just not placed until the end of the first year of mourning.

I saw a kind of sad marker once where a women had died around the age of 18, and was buried with a large headstone, with her name and birth and death dates; on either side of her were two names of people who I assumed were her parents-- they were about 30 years older, and had the same last name. Neither had a death date yet.
  #87  
Old 07-18-2014, 10:55 AM
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Stones with names and birthdates of living people aren't that unusual in the US. Because of natural variation in stone color, if you want stones to match, you should buy them all at the same time so they are quarried together. Or if you know what you want, you might as well buy it while you're still alive. And I believe that the engraving is often slightly cheaper if you have it done before the stone gets put up than after it's in the foundation, because in the latter case, they have to send someone out to the cemetery to do it. The pre-engraving may also be cheaper through a kind of package deal when you buy the headstone.
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Old 07-18-2014, 05:53 PM
lynndavis lynndavis is offline
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Okay here is the story.....
I went to the Crystal Lake Cemetery this afternoon and asked for the Caretaker. His name is Ray G. I told him how I had found the marker etc etc. She nodded his head yes, he knew what I was talking about and knew the story......then he got a phone call which seemed to last forever.....
He said that this was before his time....and he was told....but doesn't recall any exact names....this person (Roberta) was born a man and went through a sex change operation (perhaps more than one) that was botched quite badly. The plot was purchased before his/her death and the marker that they wanted had (too much) information about the procedure and outcome and the Crystal Lake Cemetery did not approve. They did get by with the reference to the other marker, that is now in the Mound Cemetery. He didn't know where the body is actually buried; he said he'd have to look it up.
I guess he/she had an agenda to advertise the mutilation....this is still very odd and disturbing. It is like engraving on a murder victim's gravestone: "chopped to bits by an axe murderer."
I'm not sure this is the whole story....what does "STILL" mean? And what was the "ritual?" I've never heard of an operation referred to as a ritual.....
My next stop is the Mound Cemetery to talk to the caretaker there, unless Hampshire beats me to it. I still haven't been able to find any other info on Roberta or Robert. I would think if he/she wanted to memorialize this tragedy there would have been something in the press.
I'll keep you posted.
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Old 07-18-2014, 06:05 PM
lynndavis lynndavis is offline
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Thanks 48 Willys. Great story.
Lynn
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Old 07-18-2014, 07:21 PM
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Since the person was known as Robert at some point, perhaps "still" means something like "even after phalloplastic reconstruction," i.e., "I can't be put back as I once was." As an infant, David Reimer was reassigned as a girl, but never felt like a girl, and when he found out he had been a boy, had his gender medically and socially assigned back. However, this sort of reversal is generally experiences as inadequate. He was a very troubled person and committed suicide in his late 30's.

Last edited by susan; 07-18-2014 at 07:22 PM.
  #91  
Old 07-18-2014, 07:57 PM
RivkahChaya RivkahChaya is offline
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Originally Posted by susan View Post
David Reimer was reassigned as a girl, but never felt like a girl, and when he found out he had been a boy, had his gender medically and socially assigned back.
David Reimer was genuinely mutilated. As a toddler, he had a condition that caused foreskin infections, and his pediatrician recommended circumcision. A urologist who apparently wasn't experienced with circumcising children used an electrocautery device intended for use on adults, who sometimes had a lot of bleeding with scalpel circumcisions. It was like using a blow torch to light a cigarette.

It may be that R. Lukanen-- I'll use the female pronoun, since that's what's on the stone-- was surgically altered as a baby or small child, and disagreed with her assigned gender. But usually intersexed babies, or those with ambiguous genitalia are assigned as girls, the difficulty of making a penis and all.

If she was assigned male, and then wished to be female-- well, that's pretty unusual. It can happen, though, but from what I understand, most doctors don't consider it ethical. What happens is that a girl is born with a masculinizing condition, so that their gender at birth looks male. They even have their ureter going through their enlarged clitoris. They may or may not have a vaginal opening. If they don't, the condition may not be discovered right away. Back in the 1940s & 50s, it's remotely possible a girl might live as a boy for several years before an x-ray taken for some other reason reveals a uterus.

So, if that happens, doctors would then do essentially, vulvaplasty-- there'd be an occult vagina, probably, and move the ureter, the hope would be without destroying clitoral sensitivity, but I dunno, 1950s? However, some parents might want to "keep" the son they were used to, and insist on a hysterectomy instead. Like I said, I think most doctors wouldn't do it, but some might. I have a vague recollection of reading about a case in the 1960s where some parents shopped their daughter around, looking for a doctor to do a hysterectomy when they found out she wasn't a boy. IIRC, the resolution was that they finally accepted that she was a girl, and did the vulvaplasty, but they moved to another city, where no one knew they used to have a boy.

Just a little extraneous info while we wait for the people with the connections to get the Straight Dope.
  #92  
Old 07-18-2014, 08:15 PM
Renee Renee is offline
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Thanks for the update, very interesting story.
  #93  
Old 07-22-2014, 06:30 PM
runningdude runningdude is offline
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
Yeah, not unusual here, either.
I had assumed this was so a universal a practice in the United States, that Ignotus must have been foreign.
  #94  
Old 07-22-2014, 10:00 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is offline
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Originally Posted by lynndavis View Post
Okay here is the story.....
I went to the Crystal Lake Cemetery this afternoon and asked for the Caretaker. His name is Ray G. I told him how I had found the marker etc etc. She nodded his head yes, he knew what I was talking about and knew the story......then he got a phone call which seemed to last forever.....
He said that this was before his time....and he was told....but doesn't recall any exact names....this person (Roberta) was born a man and went through a sex change operation (perhaps more than one) that was botched quite badly. The plot was purchased before his/her death and the marker that they wanted had (too much) information about the procedure and outcome and the Crystal Lake Cemetery did not approve. They did get by with the reference to the other marker, that is now in the Mound Cemetery. He didn't know where the body is actually buried; he said he'd have to look it up.
I guess he/she had an agenda to advertise the mutilation....this is still very odd and disturbing. It is like engraving on a murder victim's gravestone: "chopped to bits by an axe murderer."
I'm not sure this is the whole story....what does "STILL" mean? And what was the "ritual?" I've never heard of an operation referred to as a ritual.....
My next stop is the Mound Cemetery to talk to the caretaker there, unless Hampshire beats me to it. I still haven't been able to find any other info on Roberta or Robert. I would think if he/she wanted to memorialize this tragedy there would have been something in the press.
I'll keep you posted.
Perhaps, and I'm just spitballin' here, the deceased harbored a religious belief that upon entry to Heaven, his body would be restored to what his Creator originally intended.

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 07-22-2014 at 10:04 PM.
  #95  
Old 07-23-2014, 01:13 PM
Cartooniverse Cartooniverse is offline
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The SDMB at its finest.
  #96  
Old 07-25-2014, 06:03 PM
gigi gigi is offline
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Originally Posted by RivkahChaya View Post
David Reimer was genuinely mutilated. As a toddler, he had a condition that caused foreskin infections, and his pediatrician recommended circumcision. A urologist who apparently wasn't experienced with circumcising children used an electrocautery device intended for use on adults, who sometimes had a lot of bleeding with scalpel circumcisions. It was like using a blow torch to light a cigarette.
Ah, so that's what that Law&Order:SVU was based on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimstu
Killing two stones with one buried, so to speak.
Heh.
  #97  
Old 07-25-2014, 06:48 PM
RivkahChaya RivkahChaya is offline
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Ah, so that's what that Law&Order:SVU was based on.
Yeah. I don't think that happened twice. And the Reimer case was in the late 1960s. That episode was kind of stupid, because the age those twins were, I don't think that boy would have been "corrected" like that, because since about 1990, intersexed people, and people who had ambiguous genitalia at birth and are now adults, have been coming forward and saying that such babies shouldn't be corrected at birth; that such decisions should be left to the individual when he or she decides what gender feels right, and if any surgery is even necessary, because a lot of people feel they were mis-assigned, while others feel that surgery is never really adequate, and the appearance doesn't make up for any loss of sensation that may have gone with the surgery.
  #98  
Old 07-26-2014, 01:23 PM
CC CC is offline
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Nominating this thread for Theadspotting.
  #99  
Old 07-27-2014, 11:17 PM
njtt njtt is offline
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I just would like to note the irony of the fact that this mystery, which turned out to be all about the removal of a penis, was eventually solved by 48Willys!
  #100  
Old 07-28-2014, 02:56 AM
48Willys 48Willys is offline
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Originally Posted by njtt View Post
I just would like to note the irony of the fact that this mystery, which turned out to be all about the removal of a penis, was eventually solved by 48Willys!
Irony? I guess that I am just dense today!
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