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  #1  
Old 09-09-2009, 08:36 PM
Qin Shi Huangdi Qin Shi Huangdi is offline
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What Nation Is the Most Moral Nation In the World

What nation in your opinion is the most moral nation in the world. This doesn't count any historical events before 1950 so don't say "Germany can't be moral due to the Holocaust".

I would choose the Republic of Ireland as it respects human rights, doesn't have a death penalty, has low crime, is pro-life, and generally prosperous.
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  #2  
Old 09-09-2009, 09:17 PM
cornflakes cornflakes is offline
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Well, I guess that we can strike Germany from the list... (I kid, I kid....)

My guess would be that it would be a ridiculously small nation. Sark comes to mind (though not for any overwhelmingly good reason; it just seems like a nice place.) Ultimately, all morality is personal and what seems like a just, fair and moral public policy to some could be oppressive to others. In the end, the most moral nation in the world may simply be one that is small enough that its people can care for each other on a person by person basis and where they do just that.

Last edited by cornflakes; 09-09-2009 at 09:18 PM..
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  #3  
Old 09-09-2009, 09:34 PM
Plan B Plan B is offline
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Well, I can think of one country that defeated slavery, communism, fascism, nazism and baathism. But some of that happened before 1950

Last edited by Plan B; 09-09-2009 at 09:35 PM..
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  #4  
Old 09-09-2009, 09:39 PM
Argent Towers Argent Towers is offline
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Sark does seem really nice; it seems just like Summerisle.
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:06 PM
Reepicheep Reepicheep is offline
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Much depends on how morality is defined. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has a Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice, which many of us in the Western world feel does not promote the virtue of morality we wish. However, the IT folks I know from the Kingdom tell me they feel the Kingdom is a very moral place, much more than any Western country they have visited.
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:15 PM
Freudian Slit Freudian Slit is offline
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Similarly, some people would think a pro-life country would be very immoral.
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:52 PM
RandMcnally RandMcnally is offline
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Originally Posted by Argent Towers View Post
Sark does seem really nice; it seems just like Summerisle.
Could you really say that it's the most moral though, seeing as how they are just getting rid of feudalism?
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  #8  
Old 09-10-2009, 12:36 AM
panache45 panache45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis LeMay View Post
Republic of Ireland . . . is pro-life . . .
Not what I'd call "moral."

I honestly can't think of one country that would qualify . . . or even what criteria I'd use. In certain respects it could be Canada or France, but I disagree with some of their positions on civil liberties.
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  #9  
Old 09-10-2009, 12:44 AM
Knorf Knorf is online now
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Morality is a concern of individuals, not nations.
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  #10  
Old 09-10-2009, 01:26 AM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan B View Post
Well, I can think of one country that defeated slavery, communism, fascism, nazism and baathism. But some of that happened before 1950
Nor does that describe America, which I assume you mean. America practiced slavery for a long time; it was behind the curve in stopping it. America stalemated communism; it didn't defeat it. The Soviet Union did if anything more than the US to stop Nazism, and the US has never shied from supporting fascism. And it replaced Baathism with something worse, after helping support it for years.

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Originally Posted by Freudian Slit View Post
Similarly, some people would think a pro-life country would be very immoral.
Like me, for example.

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Originally Posted by Knorf View Post
Morality is a concern of individuals, not nations.
Morality is a concern of both.

Last edited by Der Trihs; 09-10-2009 at 01:27 AM..
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  #11  
Old 09-10-2009, 01:52 AM
Dublin11 Dublin11 is offline
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Originally Posted by Curtis LeMay View Post
I would choose the Republic of Ireland as it respects human rights, doesn't have a death penalty, has low crime, is pro-life, and generally prosperous.
There are getting on for 30 countries in the European Union and to be a member your country has to have abolished the death penalty and accepted the EU requirements on human rights. So Ireland isn't exactly singular in either regard.
As for Ireland being propsperous, it all depends what country you are comparing it to. It's more or less teetering on the brink of bankruptcy at the moment.

I don't think that entire countries can be defined as moral, because what's moral to a person raised in one culture is immoral to someone raised in a different culture.
For instance, some people think abortion is immoral. Some don't.
Some people think the death penalty is moral. Some don't.
Some people think homosexuality is immoral. Some don't.
The list goes on and on.

Last edited by Dublin11; 09-10-2009 at 01:53 AM..
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  #12  
Old 09-10-2009, 01:55 AM
boytyperanma boytyperanma is offline
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I'd nominate Japan for their adherence to the social contract. Whenever I'm there everyone is very nice and things like theft are not a concern. Everyone from the janitor to the executives thrive to do the best they can in their position.
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  #13  
Old 09-10-2009, 02:01 AM
Tapioca Dextrin Tapioca Dextrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis LeMay View Post
I would choose the Republic of Ireland as it respects human rights, doesn't have a death penalty, has low crime, is pro-life, and generally prosperous.
Conveniently ignoring supporting the IRA, strict gun laws and institutional child abuse (or whatever doesn't float your boat). It's kind of ridiculous to pick a random subset of your own values, label that as morality, and then cherry pick a country that appears to support that abritrary list irregardless of the bigger picture.
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  #14  
Old 09-10-2009, 02:16 AM
chowder chowder is offline
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Originally Posted by Argent Towers View Post
Sark does seem really nice; it seems just like Summerisle.
I've been to Sark and I'd like to mention that it isn't a nation, it's part of the UK.

And we are far from moral
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  #15  
Old 09-10-2009, 02:24 AM
jjimm jjimm is offline
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Originally Posted by chowder View Post
I've been to Sark and I'd like to mention that it isn't a nation, it's part of the UK.
It isn't part of the UK: it's a British Crown Dependency.

The premise of this thread is ridiculous. I nominate Sudan for its laissez-faire attitude.
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  #16  
Old 09-10-2009, 08:26 AM
FriarTed FriarTed is offline
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Originally Posted by Argent Towers View Post
Sark does seem really nice; it seems just like Summerisle.
Which is a nice place to visit unless there's been a crop failure & it's getting to the end of April....



("The children do love their divinity lessons."

"But they're naked!"

"Of course! It's far too dangerous to jump over a fire with your clothes on.")
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  #17  
Old 09-10-2009, 09:28 AM
yojimbo yojimbo is offline
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There's nothing moral about our "pro-life" stance. We have just ignored the problem and debate with a typical "Irish Solution" we ship our women over to Britain where they have the abortions. Abortions till happen, we just make it harder, more expensive and more stigmatising than some other countries in order to placate the religious.

Quote:
According to the British Department of Health, between December 1980 and January 2005 more than 123,000 women travelled to the UK for abortions
http://www.universityobserver.ie/200...on-in-ireland/

While it is true that we are generally prosperous(our economy is in the shit now but most are at the moment) we don't treat our homeless or very poor with much respect.

We have had a very bad problem with institutional discrimination against the Irish traveller community for a long time.

To our shame the state was actively involved in the mass rape and physical abuse of our children by priests and at the very least the population of the country ignored the signs of abuse that were right in front of our eyes.

There are many other reason I wouldn't say Ireland is the most "moral" country in the world if indeed we could even agree on a actual definition of moral, which we won't.

I love my country but it's not a blind rose coloured glass love.

Last edited by yojimbo; 09-10-2009 at 09:30 AM..
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  #18  
Old 09-10-2009, 09:58 AM
Susanann Susanann is offline
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Vatican City
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  #19  
Old 09-10-2009, 10:03 AM
yojimbo yojimbo is offline
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Heh.
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  #20  
Old 09-10-2009, 10:04 AM
Sailboat Sailboat is offline
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Prosperity sure is nice. I like a prosperous country. But I'm not fooled into thinking it has anything to do with morality.
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  #21  
Old 09-10-2009, 11:33 AM
Mr. Krebbs Mr. Krebbs is offline
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Any one of the 5000 or so indigenous peoples that continue to live subsistence-based lifestyles. Basically, any industrialized society doesn't get to call itself moral.
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  #22  
Old 09-10-2009, 11:48 AM
Alessan Alessan is online now
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No country is moral when its interests are at stake.
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  #23  
Old 09-10-2009, 12:43 PM
The Tooth The Tooth is offline
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Originally Posted by Plan B View Post
Well, I can think of one country that defeated slavery, communism, fascism, nazism and baathism. But some of that happened before 1950
Which one country defeated Nazism?

Oh, and overthrowing a sovereign nation with a baathist in charge is not 'defeating baathism' any more than overthrowing the United States would defeat Christianity.
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  #24  
Old 09-10-2009, 12:58 PM
El_Kabong El_Kabong is offline
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I'm not sure what the OP is driving at. Maybe he could mention what country he thinks is the most immoral, and we can work our way up from there.

Seriously, though, the subject itself doesn't seem to have an easily definable and consistent meaning. I personally am much more interested in what the OP thinks he'll gain from this thread. Once he knows which country is most moral, does he plan to move there? Is he going to become an activist for his home country to become more like the ideal, whatever that is? Was this thread posted just to kill some time? I'm curious.
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  #25  
Old 09-10-2009, 01:03 PM
An Gadaí An Gadaí is offline
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Originally Posted by Tapioca Dextrin View Post
Conveniently ignoring supporting the IRA, strict gun laws and institutional child abuse (or whatever doesn't float your boat). It's kind of ridiculous to pick a random subset of your own values, label that as morality, and then cherry pick a country that appears to support that abritrary list irregardless of the bigger picture.
I laughed out loud when I read how you equate supporting terrorism, strict gun laws, and child abuse.


FWIW I don't think Ireland's gun laws are all that strict. Also, the state doesn't support the IRA.
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  #26  
Old 09-10-2009, 02:17 PM
Superfluous Parentheses Superfluous Parentheses is offline
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Iran, possibly.
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  #27  
Old 09-10-2009, 06:56 PM
Qin Shi Huangdi Qin Shi Huangdi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapioca Dextrin View Post
Conveniently ignoring supporting the IRA, strict gun laws and institutional child abuse (or whatever doesn't float your boat). It's kind of ridiculous to pick a random subset of your own values, label that as morality, and then cherry pick a country that appears to support that abritrary list irregardless of the bigger picture.
The Irish government I don't think has actively supported the IRA with money and so on. As for gun laws it isn't extremely stringent in my opinion although certainly it needs libertarianizing but it's better then the UK or Japan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yojimbo View Post
There's nothing moral about our "pro-life" stance. We have just ignored the problem and debate with a typical "Irish Solution" we ship our women over to Britain where they have the abortions. Abortions till happen, we just make it harder, more expensive and more stigmatising than some other countries in order to placate the religious.



http://www.universityobserver.ie/200...on-in-ireland/
Well the government of Ireland has at any rate maintained it's position on abortion and if the citizens are commiting abortion in Britain it isn't the government's fault really.
Quote:
While it is true that we are generally prosperous(our economy is in the shit now but most are at the moment) we don't treat our homeless or very poor with much respect.
Does any nation really show total tolerance of the homeless?

Quote:
We have had a very bad problem with institutional discrimination against the Irish traveller community for a long time.
I agree but the Travellers ought to assimilate and stop being nomadic.

Quote:
To our shame the state was actively involved in the mass rape and physical abuse of our children by priests and at the very least the population of the country ignored the signs of abuse that were right in front of our eyes.
There has been reform by both the Catholic Church and the victims themselves.
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  #28  
Old 09-11-2009, 02:26 AM
chowder chowder is offline
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[QUOTE=jjimm;11538347]It isn't part of the UK: it's a British Crown Dependency.

QUOTE]

That's what I meant
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  #29  
Old 09-11-2009, 02:43 AM
Tapioca Dextrin Tapioca Dextrin is offline
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Originally Posted by Curtis LeMay View Post
As for gun laws it isn't extremely stringent in my opinion although certainly it needs libertarianizing but it's better then the UK or Japan.

The point I was making is that having strict gun laws is a moral choice. Wqually, having liberal gun laws is a moral choice. One is not more moral than the other.
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  #30  
Old 04-01-2012, 10:17 PM
parncutt parncutt is offline
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World's most moral nation

I would say that the world's most moral nation is the nation that is doing the most to solve the world's biggest problem, and I would say the world's biggest problem is poverty, given that as many as a billion people are at risk of dying by starvation. To find out more, just type "billion starvation" into Google. Extremes of poverty could be eliminated in about two decades if the rich countries fulfilled their promise to spend 0.7% of gross national product on international development projects (more: The End of Poverty by Jeffrey Sachs). The only countries who are actually doing that are the Scandinavian ones, so at the risk of expanding the definition of "country" I would say Scandinavia is the world's most moral place. The countries that are doing the most to cause global poverty are the tax havens which providing secret bank accounts for the super rich so that they can avoid taxes, see "Tax Justice Network". The worst country in this respect is without doubt Switzerland, which therefore receives my vote for the world's least moral nation.

Last edited by parncutt; 04-01-2012 at 10:18 PM..
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  #31  
Old 04-01-2012, 10:29 PM
Beastly Rotter Beastly Rotter is offline
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Which one country defeated Nazism?
Russia.
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  #32  
Old 04-01-2012, 10:32 PM
Rachellelogram Rachellelogram is online now
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Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
Morality is a concern of both.
No, ethics are. Morality is strictly a personal definition. Just like the OP thinks that being pro-life is a virtue, I think that being anti-abortion is a heinous violation of reproductive autonomy.
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  #33  
Old 04-01-2012, 11:03 PM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
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Hey. another zombie!

I would argue against Ireland simply because it surrendered so much of it of its civil society, particularly that of the social safety net, to the Catholic church, and for decades tuned a blind eye to the abuse of tens of thousands of children in orphanages and various forms of work houses. This hardly makes them unique, but IMO certainly takes them out of the "best of" class.
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  #34  
Old 04-01-2012, 11:12 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Sweden or Norway, depending on what year it is. Mmmm... zombie Swedish Bikini Team.
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  #35  
Old 04-01-2012, 11:12 PM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is offline
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Originally Posted by Qin Shi Huangdi View Post
I agree but the Travellers ought to assimilate and stop being nomadic.
This is a phenomenally crass thing to say. Please try to have a little respect for entire ways of life before you suggest they change to become like the society that marginalizes them.
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  #36  
Old 04-02-2012, 12:02 AM
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Nunavut.
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  #37  
Old 04-02-2012, 12:33 AM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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Um, Canada? They don't really piss anyone off that I can think of. They're just kind of there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
Nor does that describe America, which I assume you mean. America practiced slavery for a long time; it was behind the curve in stopping it. America stalemated communism; it didn't defeat it. The Soviet Union did if anything more than the US to stop Nazism, and the US has never shied from supporting fascism. And it replaced Baathism with something worse, after helping support it for years.

Like me, for example.

Morality is a concern of both.

Note, the OP said we're talking about nowadays, NOT past behavior. Slavery shouldn't count for this conversation. (And if you're arguing that the Soviet Union was more moral, then you've truly gone around the bend)

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Originally Posted by Qin Shi Huangdi View Post

I agree but the Travellers ought to assimilate and stop being nomadic.
Yeah, and those damned Jews! They should have just stopped being Jewish, so Hitler wouldn't have killed them!
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  #38  
Old 04-02-2012, 12:58 AM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
Note, the OP said we're talking about nowadays, NOT past behavior. Slavery shouldn't count for this conversation. (And if you're arguing that the Soviet Union was more moral, then you've truly gone around the bend)!
The person I was responding to was talking about past behavior, including stopping the Nazis. And if us stopping the Nazis made us moral, then logically it makes the Soviets moral since they did more than we did. It's their argument, not mine.
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Old 04-02-2012, 02:34 AM
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I don't know why everyone keeps saying that morality needs to be defined. This is an obviously opinionated question asked in IMHO. If someone asked what the most beautiful song ever written is, would you need a definition for beautiful?

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Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright View Post
Sweden or Norway, depending on what year it is. Mmmm... zombie Swedish Bikini Team.
I was kind of thinking that, but then I've also read that those are two of the richest nations in the world. When the average income is around $80,000/yr, it's pretty easy to donate 0.7% of that.
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  #40  
Old 04-02-2012, 02:52 AM
Nava Nava is offline
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Originally Posted by Qin Shi Huangdi View Post
What nation in your opinion is the most moral nation in the world. This doesn't count any historical events before 1950 so don't say "Germany can't be moral due to the Holocaust".

I would choose the Republic of Ireland as it respects human rights, doesn't have a death penalty, has low crime, is pro-life, and generally prosperous.
I follow the definitions from my Philosophy class. "Moral" = "acceptable according to the customs (Latin mores) of the place and time".

By that definition, all of them. They may not match my mores, but they match their own. It's individuals who can go against or ignore mores; nations can't.

Last edited by Nava; 04-02-2012 at 02:54 AM..
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  #41  
Old 04-02-2012, 05:55 AM
Alessan Alessan is online now
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Originally Posted by Nava View Post
I follow the definitions from my Philosophy class. "Moral" = "acceptable according to the customs (Latin mores) of the place and time".

By that definition, all of them. They may not match my mores, but they match their own. It's individuals who can go against or ignore mores; nations can't.
Well, yes and no. Nations are capable of hypocrisy.
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  #42  
Old 04-02-2012, 06:25 AM
Shakester Shakester is offline
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Russia.
Russia was only one part of the USSR AKA the Soviet Union, which is the country that defeated Nazism. Stalin (for instance) was a Georgian, not a Russian.
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  #43  
Old 04-02-2012, 08:06 AM
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There has been reform by both the Catholic Church and the victims themselves.
What reforms were required of the victims?
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  #44  
Old 04-02-2012, 08:12 AM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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I was kind of thinking that, but then I've also read that those are two of the richest nations in the world. When the average income is around $80,000/yr, it's pretty easy to donate 0.7% of that.
Their average income isn't close to $80,000 a year, but your point has merit. Take Norway off the list. Swedes, however, earn less than we (and 11 other countries) do.
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  #45  
Old 04-02-2012, 08:56 AM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is online now
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I'd say one of the Nordic countries.
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  #46  
Old 04-04-2012, 08:37 AM
Grim Render Grim Render is offline
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Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright View Post
Their average income isn't close to $80,000 a year, but your point has merit. Take Norway off the list. Swedes, however, earn less than we (and 11 other countries) do.
Actually, your link is PPP, which means income is adjusted for VAT and cost of living. In dollars and cents, the average income in Norway is indeed close to 80 000 $. Sweden is lower atm, but they got hit eceptionally hard by the crisis, and grow at about 7 %/year at the moment.
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  #47  
Old 04-04-2012, 09:59 AM
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Russia.
I was going to say that. Russia was probably also most instrumental in the fall of communism, as well, if you want to look at it like that.
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  #48  
Old 04-04-2012, 10:32 AM
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I may be biased but I'm going with Canada!

Gay marriage rights, women's abortion rights, fair and equal public education, access to all required medical care for everyone, respect for the rule of law, hate speech laws, and lack of desire to make war, more into peace keeping.

It's not perfect, but it does seem pretty moral. Y'know, and polite too!
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  #49  
Old 04-04-2012, 11:31 AM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Actually, your link is PPP, which means income is adjusted for VAT and cost of living. In dollars and cents, the average income in Norway is indeed close to 80 000 $. Sweden is lower atm, but they got hit eceptionally hard by the crisis, and grow at about 7 %/year at the moment.
Sice we're talking about whether they can afford to give more, it makes sense to adjust for puchasing power parity.
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  #50  
Old 04-04-2012, 01:49 PM
shiftless shiftless is offline
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I'm going with the UK for abolishing slavery. Yes, it was well before 1950 but it was so far reaching that I'm going claim it earned enough morality points then to keep it in the lead still.
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