Steampunk - Where do I start?

[Daddypants]

There's probably an existing thread somewhere, but I couldn't find it. Anyhoo... I'm trying to fill in the gaps in my geek knowledge. Where do I start with steampunk? Which books, comics, movies do you recommend? Give me something easy to start with and if I'm still hungry I'll go back for seconds.

[lissener]

You start with Dune.

Somewhere along the way you need to be sure and watch Steamboy.

And one that's peripherally worthwhile, for the steampunk design: Perfect Creature

[Musky Moon]

Alot of people have told me to check out The Difference Engine by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling. It had some cool moments, but on the whole I didn't care for it.

The best way into steampunk IMHO is the Steampunk Anthology edited by Jeff Vandermeer. It gave a great history on the genre in the beginning and a pretty good jumping off point to some of the best authors. You'll be surprised to see some familiar names there that you wouldn't generally associate with steampunk.

http://www.amazon.com/Steampunk-Ann-.../dp/1892391759

[GIGObuster]

On the Internet, the Webcomic Girl Genius is recommended.

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php


I have to mention this other cartoonist take on the subject:

http://www.marriedtothesea.com/070208/time-traveler.gif

[Hunter Hawk]

Start with the "Langdon St. Ives" books by James P. Blaylock; The Anubis Gates by Tim Powers; and Morlock Night by K. W. Jeter.

Avoid Dune. It is (a) not steampunk, and (b) crap.

[Mervyn Pumpkinhead]

I would second the novel 'Homunculus' by Blaylock and add 'Perdido Street Station'.

http://www.amazon.com/Perdido-Street...2713914&sr=8-1

[lissener]

Originally Posted by Hunter Hawk

Start with the "Langdon St. Ives" books by James P. Blaylock; The Anubis Gates by Tim Powers; and Morlock Night by K. W. Jeter.

Avoid Dune. It is (a) not steampunk, and (b) crap.

Dune is arguably the beginning of steampunk visuals in film. And many people don't think it's crap; the OP can decide for him/herself.

[RealityChuck]

Dune came pretty late to the party. There were steampunk visuals in film in The Fabulous World of Jules Verne in 1958.

Here is some footage on Youtube.

Of course, you could argue the design goes back to Melies's A Trip to the Moon.

Steampunk as a literary genre comes from Blaylock and Jeter (who coined the term). Tim Powers is grouped with them because they were friends, but he was working at a slightly earlier historical time frame. Jeter's Infernal Devices and Blaylock's Homonculus are good places to start. I'd also suggest Mark Frost's The List of Seven and The Six Messiahs.

The Difference Engine is a must read, but as a novel is nowhere as good as Jeter, Blaylock or Powers (if you consider him steampunk) work in creating the genre.

[DrFidelius]

For a short flm that you can watch right now, try:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vORsKyopHyM

[lissener]

Originally Posted by RealityChuck

Dune came pretty late to the party. There were steampunk visuals in film in The Fabulous World of Jules Verne in 1958.

While Jules Verne is obviously the most important godfather of steampunk, I don't think his work is interchangeable with it. Steampunk is a more recent invention, heavily influenced by Verne. I still argue that Dune is the dividing line between steampunk and what came before it.

I'd call the film you cite an influence, rather than a firm member of the school.

[Rubystreak]

My favorite steampunk/weird fiction writer is China Mieville: Perdido Street Station, The Scar, and Iron Council are magnificent.

[Cornelius Tuggerson]

Another vote for the difference engine, I was reading William Gibson's books to get caught up on cyberpunk and bumped into it. It was awesome. Also give the ethical engineer by Harry Harrison a try. Its about a guy from the future getting trapped on a backwards victorian era style planet and kicking ass.

[appleciders]

Originally Posted by GIGObuster

On the Internet, the Webcomic Girl Genius is recommended.

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php

Seconded. Good stuff. It's a lovingly done celebration of the ridiculousness of steampunk in general, and quite enjoyable.

The Difference Engine, by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling, is pretty good.

Jules Verne is regarded as the godfather of the genre, from a time when steam was state-of-the-art.

You also might try The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, a graphic novel by Alan Moore. Don't watch the movie; even though it's got Sean Connery, it's horrific.

[dropzone]

The Difference Engine blew chunks. I blame Sterling be cause he has elsewhere demonstrated he's a lousy writer.

Go to the source, The Wild Wild West. Note that, in one episode, on the wall behind Dr Loveless is a blueprint for a turbojet engine.

[Transistor Rhythm]

Why Dune?

[lissener]

Originally Posted by Transistor Rhythm

Why Dune?

Because the design was pure steampunk: wood, brass, neoclassical motifs like wings and filigree--all in a futuristic, SF setting. I can't think of an earlier film that was as solidly within the aesthetic of steampunk. The examples given above were set in the Victorian era; they're Victorian, not steampunk. Dune was set in the far future, but with a Victorian aesthetic. Voila. Steampunk.

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by appleciders

S

Jules Verne is regarded as the godfather of the genre, from a time when steam was state-of-the-art.

You also might try The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, a graphic novel by Alan Moore. Don't watch the movie; even though it's got Sean Connery, it's horrific.

Actually, the film is better than the book, IMHO. It doesn't make travesties of other authors beloved characters, like Moore did. Moore did horrible things to other authors characters- which he claimed was OK as the works were out of copyright. Then, Moore complains when the dudes who bought the rights to his works changed them around. We call that hypocrisy.

Speaking of Verne, Disney's 2000 Leagues was pure Steampunk, and well before Dune.

Warehouse 13 is Steampunk. I second dropzone in that many epis of The Wild Wild West had distinct Steampunk elements.

Blaylock is an excellent read.

[lissener]

Originally Posted by DrDeth

Speaking of Verne, Disney's 2000 Leagues was pure Steampunk, and well before Dune.

Well again, that was Victorian, not steampunk. My understanding of steampunk is that it's alternate universe, or future, where the technology is basically Victorian.

Actual Victorian is not alternate universe or future; it's past. Jules Verne was Victorian SF, not steampunk. Steampunk took the Verne aesthetic and moved it into the future or the alternate present.

Put it this way: if all the stuff we now call steampunk had never been invented, we wouldn't be calling Verne steampunk: his stuff led to steampunk, and it's grandfathered in, honorarily, so to speak, but it's pre-steampunk, not actual steampunk.

[Martini Enfield]

Originally Posted by lissener

Well again, that was Victorian, not steampunk. My understanding of steampunk is that it's alternate universe, or future, where the technology is basically Victorian.

Which would rule out Dune, which had spaceships powered by non-Victorianesque technology, IIRC.

That doesn't mean Steampunk is incompatible with spaceflight (quite the opposite), but you can't have nuclear reactors powering the ships, because... well, that's just not a Victorian thing.

[Reply]

Originally Posted by lissener

Well again, that was Victorian, not steampunk. My understanding of steampunk is that it's alternate universe, or future, where the technology is basically Victorian.

That's really interesting. I always thought Steampunk was Victorian culture mixed in with futuristic technology (i.e. the opposite of your description). Primitive worlds and peoples mixed in with technology that they use only within the confines of Victorian society.

[DeptfordX]

I've been working my way through Stephen Hunt recently. I'm finding them a great read.

[Martini Enfield]

Originally Posted by Reply

That's really interesting. I always thought Steampunk was Victorian culture mixed in with futuristic technology (i.e. the opposite of your description). Primitive worlds and peoples mixed in with technology that they use only within the confines of Victorian society.

Usually it's both, AIUI. You need Victorian culture and futuristic stuff that the Victorians might have come up with had history and tech development been a bit different. Thus, the Internet is out (too complicated by Victorian standards), but giant steam-powered mechanical adding machines? That's fine.

Similarly, Zeppelins are almost de rigueur, but Jet aircraft are out. Solid-fuel rocket-planes might be OK, but they're not going to be terribly advanced or large.

Typically, the end of WWI is about as "modern" as you can get and still claim a "Steampunk" setting- from the 1920s onwards it's really more "Retro Futuristic", really.

[Raguleader]

Reminds me of the arguments about whether or not Star Wars is sci-fi or Space Fantasy

It's a bit of an outlier, but you might enjoy The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr. a western sci-fi show (not to be confused with sci-fi westerns, such as Firefly or Trigun). Basically a cowboy show taking place in the late 1800s, with the characters dealing with what could be considered to be sci-fi inventions in the 1800s (I recall horseless carriages, airships, rocket engines, and artillery capable of attacking a target more than two miles away. Oh, and time travel and motorcycle gangs.) Show starred Bruce Cambell as Brisco County, Jr., a Harvard lawyer-turned-bounty-hunter tracking down the men responsible for the murder of his father, US Marshall Brisco County, Sr.

Also, another vote for Girl Genius which bills itself as "Gaslamp Fantasy" (though the author admits that she made up a name for a genre that she later learned was already called "Steampunk"). It's very funny, very well drawn and written, and has such awesome book titles as "Agatha Heterodyne and the Chapel of Bones" (which won a Hugo award recently). Also, it is worth reading just for the Jagermonsters and the Dingbots.

I think there was a Marvel comic taking place in an alternate universe 1600s. One of the characters, IIRC, was basically a steampunk Iron Man.

There is an anime collection from the 80's called Robot Carnival. One of the segments, "A Tale of Two Robots", is a hillarious short about a battle between two giant robots in Tokyo... in 1899. Both robots are fueled by shoveling coal into a furnace, and controlled by pulling on levers, ropes, spinning wheels, etc. One of the robots has a muzzle-loading cannon that must be loaded by hand.

[Kamino Neko]

Originally Posted by Raguleader

Also, another vote for Girl Genius which bills itself as "Gaslamp Fantasy" (though the author admits that she made up a name for a genre that she later learned was already called "Steampunk").

Nitpick - one of the authors - it's cowritten by Kaja and Phil Foglio.

I think there was a Marvel comic taking place in an alternate universe 1600s. One of the characters, IIRC, was basically a steampunk Iron Man.

1602 by Neil Gaiman. The premise being that the Marvel Universe got started during Elizabeth I's reign. It was in New World (one of the sequels) that Lord Iron - Iron Man in a primitive armour - showed.

[Hunter Hawk]

Originally Posted by RealityChuck

Jeter's Infernal Devices

For some reason, I never remember this one.

I should also note that while you should start off with Morlock Night, it frankly isn't very good IMO.

Originally Posted by lissener

Well again, that was Victorian, not steampunk. My understanding of steampunk is that it's alternate universe, or future, where the technology is basically Victorian.

Actual Victorian is not alternate universe or future; it's past. Jules Verne was Victorian SF, not steampunk. Steampunk took the Verne aesthetic and moved it into the future or the alternate present.

Jeter would seem to disagree with you:

Originally Posted by K. W. Jeter, via Wikipedia

Dear Locus,

Enclosed is a copy of my 1979 novel Morlock Night; I'd appreciate your being so good as to route it Faren Miller, as it's a prime piece of evidence in the great debate as to who in "the Powers/Blaylock/Jeter fantasy triumvirate" was writing in the "gonzo-historical manner" first. Though of course, I did find her review in the March Locus to be quite flattering.

Personally, I think Victorian fantasies are going to be the next big thing, as long as we can come up with a fitting collective term for Powers, Blaylock and myself. Something based on the appropriate technology of the era; like "steampunks", perhaps...

[Kobal2]

You probably want to read The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. No, not watch, READ. Besides, what would you watch ? The League has never made it to the silver screen. No sir.

Then, read up on the works referenced by said League : the Robur books, Jules Vernes, etc...

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by lissener

Well again, that was Victorian, not steampunk. My understanding of steampunk is that it's alternate universe, or future, where the technology is basically Victorian.

Actual Victorian is not alternate universe or future; it's past. Jules Verne was Victorian SF, not steampunk. Steampunk took the Verne aesthetic and moved it into the future or the alternate present.

Put it this way: if all the stuff we now call steampunk had never been invented, we wouldn't be calling Verne steampunk: his stuff led to steampunk, and it's grandfathered in, honorarily, so to speak, but it's pre-steampunk, not actual steampunk.

The sorta-atomic powered Nautilus? Those electric guns? The sea-shell diving gear?

Steampunk.

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by Kobal2

You probably want to read The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. No, not watch, READ. Besides, what would you watch ? The League has never made it to the silver screen. No sir.
.

I am glad that is has as (if you'd read this thread you'd have read...)Actually, the film is better than the book, IMHO. It doesn't make travesties of other authors beloved characters, like Moore did. Moore did horrible things to other authors characters- which he claimed was OK as the works were out of copyright. Then, Moore complains when the dudes who bought the rights to his works changed them around. We call that hypocrisy.

[kapri]

Originally Posted by Raguleader

Reminds me of the arguments about whether or not Star Wars is sci-fi or Space Fantasy

It's a bit of an outlier, but you might enjoy The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr. a western sci-fi show (not to be confused with sci-fi westerns, such as Firefly or Trigun). Basically a cowboy show taking place in the late 1800s, with the characters dealing with what could be considered to be sci-fi inventions in the 1800s (I recall horseless carriages, airships, rocket engines, and artillery capable of attacking a target more than two miles away. Oh, and time travel and motorcycle gangs.) Show starred Bruce Cambell as Brisco County, Jr., a Harvard lawyer-turned-bounty-hunter tracking down the men responsible for the murder of his father, US Marshall Brisco County, Sr.

Also, another vote for Girl Genius which bills itself as "Gaslamp Fantasy" (though the author admits that she made up a name for a genre that she later learned was already called "Steampunk"). It's very funny, very well drawn and written, and has such awesome book titles as "Agatha Heterodyne and the Chapel of Bones" (which won a Hugo award recently). Also, it is worth reading just for the Jagermonsters and the Dingbots.

I think there was a Marvel comic taking place in an alternate universe 1600s. One of the characters, IIRC, was basically a steampunk Iron Man.

There is an anime collection from the 80's called Robot Carnival. One of the segments, "A Tale of Two Robots", is a hillarious short about a battle between two giant robots in Tokyo... in 1899. Both robots are fueled by shoveling coal into a furnace, and controlled by pulling on levers, ropes, spinning wheels, etc. One of the robots has a muzzle-loading cannon that must be loaded by hand.

As a kid in the 60s I remember watching a TV show called "The Wild Wild West" that definitely seemed to have a steampunk theme going on.

I came late to the steampunk party, too, and am quite intrigued by it, so I am enjoying this thread.

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by lissener

Dune is arguably the beginning of steampunk visuals in film. And many people don't think it's crap; the OP can decide for him/herself.

Dune is definitely not steampunk, even just considering the visuals.

And as for "first", I think stuff like Disney's 20 000 Leagues Under The Sea(if a pre-1990 Dune counts, so does this) and The Wild Wild West TV show give the lie to that.

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by lissener

Because the design was pure steampunk: wood, brass, neoclassical motifs like wings and filigree--all in a futuristic, SF setting. I can't think of an earlier film that was as solidly within the aesthetic of steampunk. The examples given above were set in the Victorian era; they're Victorian, not steampunk. Dune was set in the far future, but with a Victorian aesthetic. Voila. Steampunk.

This is not a Victorian aesthetic.The male Atreides uniforms, yes, definitely. But the women's costumes are more medieval/renaissance or ethnic. And the sets vary - only the Atreides & Imperial palace design even comes close to what I'd call a steampunk aesthetic, and it's hardly the dominant aesthetic of even the first part of the movie, with equal parts grim Industrial (Harkonnen) and general wierdness (the Guild, Arakeen).

[RealityChuck]

Originally Posted by lissener

Because the design was pure steampunk: wood, brass, neoclassical motifs like wings and filigree--all in a futuristic, SF setting. I can't think of an earlier film that was as solidly within the aesthetic of steampunk. The examples given above were set in the Victorian era; they're Victorian, not steampunk. Dune was set in the far future, but with a Victorian aesthetic. Voila. Steampunk.

By that reasoning, The Difference Engine and all the steampunk novels (including the ones by the person who invented the term) are not steampunk.

If you want to play victory by definition, then there's no point in arguing. But steampunk clearly used the Victorian aesthetic of Jules Verne as a starting point. All the people who invented the genre set their books in the 19th century. They were using Verne as a touchstone (and, of course, he remains so).

The visuals in things like 20,000 Leagues and The World of Jules Verne and Wild Wild West are exactly the visuals in any steampunk book or movie.

[HPL]

Originally Posted by Martini Enfield

That doesn't mean Steampunk is incompatible with spaceflight (quite the opposite), but you can't have nuclear reactors powering the ships, because... well, that's just not a Victorian thing.

But nuclear reactors are used to produce steam to power things(engines, electrical generators), so one would think that would make nuclear reactors very compatiable with steampunk.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by HPL

But nuclear reactors are used to produce steam to power things(engines, electrical generators), so one would think that would make nuclear reactors very compatiable with steampunk.

Especially if you called them "atomic piles."

[GIGObuster]

Originally Posted by RealityChuck

The visuals in things like 20,000 Leagues and The World of Jules Verne and Wild Wild West are exactly the visuals in any steampunk book or movie.

I can see that Wild Wild West is James Bond in a steampunk series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKZOrVwM930
The name is West.. James West.

[lissener]

Originally Posted by RealityChuck

By that reasoning, The Difference Engine and all the steampunk novels (including the ones by the person who invented the term) are not steampunk.

If you want to play victory by definition, then there's no point in arguing. But steampunk clearly used the Victorian aesthetic of Jules Verne as a starting point. All the people who invented the genre set their books in the 19th century. They were using Verne as a touchstone (and, of course, he remains so).

The visuals in things like 20,000 Leagues and The World of Jules Verne and Wild Wild West are exactly the visuals in any steampunk book or movie.

All true. But as far as my understanding goes, the distinction between steampunk and the stuff that informs/influences it is that the influences are what they are, when they are, if you catch my meaning; whereas steampunk takes that aesthetic and transports it, extrapolates it, into a speculative future or alternate universe. It's that speculative leap that makes it steampunk, rather than an actual Victorian, uh, artifact. And while this is for more open to debate, for me it also means something that was created more recently than actual Verne, or even than Wild Wild West: I think of steampunk as a reaction to more classical SF; as an anti-steel/chrome/acrylic-SF aesthetic. Thus, stuff that came before that reaction informs it, isn't retroactively part of it. Which is why I see Dune as a big part of its origins. Dune's aesthetic was HUGELY a reaction to the traditional white-plastic/chrome/acrylic aesthetic of classical SF, e.g. 2001. And while Alien's grungy, lived-in look was just as much a reaction to that same shiny brightness, Alien's aesthetic was not informed by same design sources that became steampunk. (Though it's worth noting that Giger was involved with both projects.)

Anyway, I don't claim you're wrong as far as this disagreement goes. But I do still think of Dune as the beginning of the stylistic movement that I think of as steampunk. As least as far as film goes; I'm less familiar with the literary iterations of the genre.

[lissener]

Originally Posted by MrDibble

This is not a Victorian aesthetic.The male Atreides uniforms, yes, definitely. But the women's costumes are more medieval/renaissance or ethnic. And the sets vary - only the Atreides & Imperial palace design even comes close to what I'd call a steampunk aesthetic, and it's hardly the dominant aesthetic of even the first part of the movie, with equal parts grim Industrial (Harkonnen) and general wierdness (the Guild, Arakeen).

Again all true, but I don't see how that's relevant: no one has suggest that Dune was fully developed, refined steampunk; only that steampunk had a lot of its aesthetic origins in Dune.

"African tribal art influenced Picasso."

"Picasso did a lot of stuff that was not influenced by African tribal art."

Those two statements are not irreconcilable.

[Martini Enfield]

Originally Posted by HPL

But nuclear reactors are used to produce steam to power things(engines, electrical generators), so one would think that would make nuclear reactors very compatiable with steampunk.

I'm familiar with the basic principles of Atomic Energy, but nuclear reactors are still 1950s Retro-Futurism, not Steampunk, even though theoretically you should be able to have Atomic Submarines in a Steampunk setting.

[Raguleader]

Originally Posted by Martini Enfield

I'm familiar with the basic principles of Atomic Energy, but nuclear reactors are still 1950s Retro-Futurism, not Steampunk, even though theoretically you should be able to have Atomic Submarines in a Steampunk setting.

It's just vital that an atomic submarine include as many brass fittings and steam gauges as possible.

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by lissener

Again all true, but I don't see how that's relevant: no one has suggest that Dune was fully developed, refined steampunk; only that steampunk had a lot of its aesthetic origins in Dune.

See, if you say "Lots of inarguably Steampunk works and Dune share an aesthetic sensibility in the use of certain Victorian motifs in costume, props and set design ", I can see that and I agree.

But when you instead say what I bolded there, you're flat-out wrong. I like the Lynch Dune just fine, but but isn't the aesthetic origin of jack. Certainly, it's not quoted as such by anyone I know of. I think it's just you.

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

Especially if you called them "atomic piles."

This just sounds like a lower digestive tract situation you do not want to have, ever.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by MrDibble

This just sounds like a lower digestive tract situation you do not want to have, ever.

Hmmm...How about "Nuclear Furnace"?

[lissener]

Originally Posted by MrDibble

See, if you say "Lots of inarguably Steampunk works and Dune share an aesthetic sensibility in the use of certain Victorian motifs in costume, props and set design ", I can see that and I agree.

But when you instead say what I bolded there, you're flat-out wrong. I like the Lynch Dune just fine, but but isn't the aesthetic origin of jack. Certainly, it's not quoted as such by anyone I know of. I think it's just you.

I didn't state that very clearly. I don't Dune invented those motifs; I just think that was the first time those visual came together, were synthesized, in the manner that came to be known as steampunk. I'm not even sure it directly influenced much that came after; certainly not consciously. But I think to some degree it lit the steampunk spark--in movies at least--even if the kindling was supplied by many other sources.

[Apollyon]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

Hmmm...How about "Nuclear Furnace"?

I'd suggest "Radium Furnace".

While not arguing against lissener I'd suggest that Lynch's Dune perhaps portrayed a slightly different aesthetic, I'm not sure if there's a genre name but "SF Gothic" might fit. Something similar appeared in the Nemesis the Warlock comics, which seem to have (generously speaking) "informed" GW's Warhammer 40,000.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Apollyon

I'd suggest "Radium Furnace".

I could go with that.

This is an interesting link, but seems abandoned.

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by Apollyon

Something similar appeared in the Nemesis the Warlock comics, which seem to have (generously speaking) "informed" GW's Warhammer 40,000.

There's a lot of crossover in writers and artists between 2000AD and Games Workshop, so I'd put it down more to the UK being a small pond than any cribbing, myself. Not that there isn't a lot of "homage", of course - I mean, if the Adeptus Arbites aren't straight Dredd tributes, I'll be very surprised

[hilarleo]

Most arguments here neglect fully one-half of the equation.
It appears PUNK is unknown to y'all. Hmm?

One thing is clear: *Steam-punk* DOESNOT equal Victoriana.
Punk is not static! Punk would revile nostalgia.

Where is the Punk?!

Historically Punk was a post-1960's reaction to shrinking dystopias of an England within an Orwellian American Century. Punk has forever been inherently "political"- ie., it speaks a truth which may not be named in the world: Punk loudly reviles _Imperialism_. Was not our dear Captain Nemo merely an Anti-Imperial imperialist- & as such, a favorite SuperMan model for the Nazis?

But Punk not only served as a foil for the emergent New World Order, it also attacked the consumers of Consumerism: the Hippies. The Psychedelic Revolution failed- b/c the Flower Children were "non-political", often isolationist.

Verne sought ways to manipulate, overpower and escape regime- not to undercut social power at it's source. He found "empire" a sound structure; he moves armies of men to the whims of individuals, his protagonists. His worlds are actually populated by ants.

But Punk is inherently Inter-national. The only form of punk production is art, where Labor is collective yet distributed. Punk shares many ideals of Spanish Anarcho-Syndicalism as well as the Soviet 4th International- a socialist "global revolution".

The best S-punk novels develop the Syndicalist theme, most notably in Bruce Sterling's <Islands in the Net>.

Above all, Punk is a Teen-Ager 'tude. (nb.: "Teen-Agers" would not exist before 1940) Punk is outrageous subversion of "safe", stable values. That subversion ranges from socio-opathic attacks on any and all structures... to academically informed rebellion against all power which exploits humanity via economic inequities.
----Leo
<Dune> draws its line in the sand.

[hilarleo]

webmaster@straightdope.com


Most arguments here neglect fully one-half of the equation.
It appears PUNK is unknown to y'all. Hmm?
One thing is clear: *Steam-punk* DOESNOT equal Victoriana. Punk is not static! Punk would revile nostalgia.

Where is the Punk?!

Historically Punk was a post-1960's reaction to shrinking dystopias of an England within an Orwellian American Century.
Punk has forever been inherently "political"- ie., it speaks a truth which may not be named in the world: Punk loudly reviles _Imperialism_.
Was not our dear Captain Nemo merely an Anti-Imperial imperialist- & as such, a favorite SuperMan model for the Nazis?

But Punk not only served as a foil for the emergent New World Order, it also attacked the consumers of Consumerism: the Hippies.
The Psychedelic Revolution failed- b/c the Flower Children were found to be "non-political", even isolationist "druggies".

Verne sought ways to manipulate, overpower and escape regime- not to undercut social power at it's source.
Verne finds "empire" sound political structure; he moves armies of men to the whims of individual protagonists.
His universe is actually populated by ants. The elaboration of hydraulic engineering does not a Steam-Punk aesthetic make.

Punk is inherently Inter-nationalist. It celebrates democratic, collective action and does so via propaganda techniques, within the means of meme production: Mass Media.
The only form of production in punk is Art. Here Labor is collective yet distributed.
Punk largely shares political ideals of Spanish Anarcho-Syndicalism, as well as the Soviet 4th International- the ideal of Socialist "Global Workers' Revolution".
But Punk wont take a job.

Production structures accrete around production goals; the means of production (electric guitars and drums) are freely available,
as natural resources of the post-industrial environment.
Today the Punk Revolution, the change to a DIY aesthetic, has successfully infiltrated --and de-stabilized-- the corporate agenda.
The best S-punk novels develop the Syndicalist theme, most notably in Bruce Sterling's <Islands in the Net>.

Above all, Punk is a Teen-Ager 'tude. (nb.: "Teen-Agers" would not exist before 1940).
Punk involves outrageous subversion of "safe", stable values. That subversion ranges from socio-pathic attacks on any and all structures...
to academically informed rebellion against all power which exploits humanity via economic inequities.

How all the theories translate into visuals is harder to describe . . .
But I suggest that pre- WWII, little of Punk could conceivably exist, save "precursors"-
such as Les Communards, Luddism, streams of the Archaic Revival, Marshall McLuhan's theories of slave control...

Overall, <The Wild Wild West> has certain elements of anarchy; but discussion of collective goals is limited; and Revolutionary thought would seem actively ignored.
However <Dune> draws its line deeply in these sands.

----Leo in berkeley

[Dan Norder]

Steampunk <> punk.

Zombie thread = anarchy.

[DrFidelius]

Son, the 'punk' aspect of modern Steampunk involves a rebellion against the comfortable middle-class malaise. We do this by being polite, dressing well, and being careful in our use of the language.

It would serve you well to recall the historic origin or the term -- it was first applied as a joke and parallel construction to "cyberpunk," such as the Bruce Sterling novel you cited (which did demonstrate a Punk aesthetic) to the neo-Victorian adventure books being written in the late 70s to mid- 80s.

Steampunk has a sense of humour about itself that is sorely lacking from the overly earnest Punk political agenda. You take yourself too seriously, and should read a few things for entertainment.

Come on out to a Steampunk event and meet some real Steampunks. They are fun people, and are trying to make this a world of wonders for all, with an emphasis on quality craftsmanship and respect for each other.