Gay Pirates

[DMark]

I asked this question many years ago, but didn't get much success. Thought I would try one more time.

In the late 70's, when I was living in NYC, there was an article (Village Voice?) about a book that claimed many of the famous pirate ships of yore were actually groups of homosexual men, not the typical Hollywood swarthy types to lust after women on shore leave. They showed an old poster than had been posted in NYC warning, "Keep Your Young Boys Away From The Docks!" and it went on to say that 12-14 year old boys would be snatched by pirates and taken onto ships as pegboys and never heard from again.
The article mentioned several old newspaper clippings in major ports of call about "perversions" common among pirates on the ships, and claimed that some bars in port cities were turned into defacto Gay bars when these pirate ships would dock and the crew would swarm into a bar, hitting on other men and recruiting them to join their ship.

I have never been able to find the book that was referenced, nor the article...it could have been in the New Yorker, or any other NYC magazine - this was way back about 1978 or 1979. I know I read this article/book review and can recall sitting at a cafe reading it and making a mental note to buy the book they were talking about.

Has anyone run across a book on this subject, or an article?

[Shagnasty]

I have never read anything like that but I can easily believe it based on these pictures:

http://beej.us/pirates/pirates.html

Major seaports often attract more than their fair share of homosexuals.

[Lumpy]

Nothing factual to add I'm afraid, just my 2¢.

First, consider the source. A New York based magazine in the 1970s? Back when every all-male group or society that ever existed, including Jesus and his disciples, was called covertly gay? Sounds like an agenda at work.

Second, I would be sceptical as to the practicality of a group of gays organizing their own shipboard society. Piracy was first and foremost about making money. I can't see that you could have a functional working group of men while having the ship be a floating bathhouse. The sexual politics alone would wreck the kind of order needed to run a ship and be efficient plunderers.

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

Well, there was Tampa Bay's winking Bucco Bruce

[RickJay]

Homosexual behaviour was pretty commonplace among pirates; at one point the French government sent women to Tortuga or some such dump to try to cut down on all the ass-humping.

Now, somehow I don't think this was so much a case of homosexuals becoming mariners as it is that mariners turned to gay sex in the absence of available females.

[The Tao's Revenge]

<insert link to gay porn on bit torrent>

[i am a scientist]

Boatloads of seamen cruising for booty doesn't sound very gay to me.

[HeyHomie]

Somebody has to say it, might as well be me:

Swishbucklers!!!!!

[Tom Tildrum]

The Simpsons made a joke along these lines in one episode. Apu went to the docks to deliver a stash of girlie magazines to the ship captain, who thanked him by saying, "They'll keep my men from resorting to homosexuality ... for about ten minutes!" And the sailors around him all laugh knowingly.

[Kobal2]

Random observation : for some reason, I can not read the words "gay pirates" without mentally adding "from outerspace !". Make of that what you will.

[Khadaji]

Cecil covered it. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...y-and-the-lash

[pravnik]

The book may have been the original 1983 version of the book Cecil refers to in his article, Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition. I read it in undergrad.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by DMark

They showed an old poster than had been posted in NYC warning, "Keep Your Young Boys Away From The Docks!" and it went on to say that 12-14 year old boys would be snatched by pirates and taken onto ships as pegboys and never heard from again.

Let's not conflate child predators with homesexuals. Sounds more like they were pederasts, not gay.

[kitemaker_chuck]

I remember reading about the "Golden Spike", whereby new young sailors would be taken belowdecks so they could see the "Golden Spike".

Did this have any connection with gay pirates?

[dracoi]

Originally Posted by DMark

They showed an old poster than had been posted in NYC warning, "Keep Your Young Boys Away From The Docks!" and it went on to say that 12-14 year old boys would be snatched by pirates and taken onto ships as pegboys and never heard from again.

I don't doubt that homosexual activities went on with pirate ships, but I wouldn't trust a poster like this to be telling the truth. There are plenty of young boys during any historical period who join gangs, pirate crews, outlaw bands, etc. Warning them that they'll get it up the rear is a better way to make the life seem less appealing than trying to warn them about scurvy or prison.

[Arkcon]

What I have is mostly WAG -- because I'd heard it on some humor website, like Cracked, or something like that. But you may be able to google for my info, and then find a citation. Anyway, what the web page said was that pirates may have had intercrural sex (between the thighs,) because anal sex and fellatio are not pleasant prospects, when people don't have access to running water for a good wash.

[Arkcon]

Agh .... missed edit window. My point was, the description of the practices in the OP's quote doesn't match standard practices of gay men of the time period and environment. The site also mentioned that these men wouldn't be circumcised for example, and without copious water, keeping clean enough for contemporary gay practices wouldn't be possible. So that helps put the "scholarlyness" of that article in question.

[MPB in Salt Lake]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Let's not conflate child predators with homesexuals. Sounds more like they were pederasts, not gay.

If men (pirates) sexually abuse teen boys, dosent that make a pretty strong case that the men are gay?

ETA-----Is a child predator who preys on children of thier same gender homosexual?

[Laudenum]

Didn't one of the first explorers to the America's (just after Columbus), hang two lads for carrying on?

I can't imagine pirates were more open minded.

[t-bonham@scc.net]

Originally Posted by Arkcon

because anal sex and fellatio are not pleasant prospects, when people don't have access to running water for a good wash.

Pirates floating on the ocean don't have access to water? What?
It's true they didn't have running water, with plumbing pipes all through the wooden ship, but neither did other ships (or even most houses of that time, in fact). And salt water works for washing -- most of our sailor through WWII and later had salt water showers rather than fresh water for bathing.

[Markxxx]

Anytime you get men in a place with no women available you're gonna wind up with homosexual acts.

This is what is termed as "situational sexual behavior"

[Odesio]

It wasn't typical for pirates to spend months out of sea like a merchant vessel or a Royal Naval vessel might. The men pressed into service in the Royal Navy were often forbidden from going onto shore when the ship was in port. Have no fear, boats full of prostitutes would head towards the ships, come aboard, and ply their trade. So even when faced with no women for months at a time there was going to come a point where women would be available. That differs from a prison scenario where there will most assuredly be no contact with women for a number of years or even life.

Unfortunately there is scant evidence that exist about homosexuality and piracy in the 17th and 18th centuries. While I'm certain it existed I do not know to what extent.

A decent book about sailors and women is Women Sailors and Sailor's Women by David Cordingly.

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by Laudenum

Didn't one of the first explorers to the America's (just after Columbus), hang two lads for carrying on?

Magellan had a ship's master strangled for committing sodomy with a cabin boy, but the cabin boy was spared (although he may have committed suicide or been murdered subsequently). However, although sodomy was a capital crime, in practice most captains looked the other way unless the acts were too obvious.

I can't imagine pirates were more open minded.

Samuel Talty's Empire of Blue Water (2007), a non-fiction recounting of the career of pirate Henry Morgan, states that the prototypical buccaneers, the boucaniers of the north coast of Hispaniola, prohibited women in their camps, instead forming relationships with other boucaniers as matelots (literally "bed mates") for "lifelong, probably sexual, relationships."

With regard to the OP, I doubt that pirate ships were crewed by a greater percentage of true homosexuals than other ships at the time. Situational homosexuality, however, no doubt was common, as it is in any other environment where women are not available to heterosexual men. The difference would have been that in at least some pirate ships homosexuality would have been more tolerated, since they had no particular concern for the law. On most navy and merchant ships, homosexual acts would have had to have been more covert due to their illegality. Of course, there may have been some pirate captains who did not permit homosexuality as well.

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by DMark

I have never been able to find the book that was referenced, nor the article...it could have been in the New Yorker, or any other NYC magazine - this was way back about 1978 or 1979. I know I read this article/book review and can recall sitting at a cafe reading it and making a mental note to buy the book they were talking about.

Has anyone run across a book on this subject, or an article?

The book you are thinking of may have been Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition: English Sea Rovers in the Seventeenth Century Caribbean, by B. R. Burg, although this was first published in 1983.

You can browse parts of it in Wiki Books.

[lissener]

Ha! I've actually read that book. Pretty faskinatin.

[Quercus]

Originally Posted by Colibri

With regard to the OP, I doubt that pirate ships were crewed by a greater percentage of true homosexuals than other ships at the time.

Though, I would guess ships in general would have a slightly greater percentage of true homosexuals than the general population, just because those who found that the kind of liked the situation of 'situational homosexuality' (even if not consciously admitting it) might tend to stick around, while those who were really opposed might tend to find another occupation.

Again, I suspect this would have varied a lot ship-to-ship as well.

[DMark]

Originally Posted by Colibri

The book you are thinking of may have been Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition: English Sea Rovers in the Seventeenth Century Caribbean, by B. R. Burg, although this was first published in 1983.

You can browse parts of it in Wiki Books.

Colibri, I think you found exactly what I was looking for! In the link to Wiki Books, the author mentions that he did a lecture and that it was widely publicized in the late 70's and hit the wire services. He goes on to mention that he got lots of mail about that article from all over. Most likely, I read one of those wire reports in a local free rag and was trying to find that book. I know I read it back then, but have never been able to find any specific reference since.
Thank you!

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by Earl Snake-Hips Tucker

Well, there was Tampa Bay's winking Bucco Bruce

Bucco Bruce's color scheme ought to have made it pretty obvious that he was straight. A gay pirate would have lost his lunch at seeing red-white-and-orange uniforms.

[HorseloverFat]

Michael Shermer in his skeptic column in SA wrote about pirate societies recently. They were well organized and had rules against keeping boys as sexual servants, so obviously pedophilia and homosexuality was common enough to make laws to control it. Im sure the people of the period understood this and thus warned boys about the lifestyle.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by HorseloverFat

Michael Shermer in his skeptic column in SA wrote about pirate societies recently. They were well organized and had rules against keeping boys as sexual servants, so obviously pedophilia and homosexuality was common enough to make laws to control it. Im sure the people of the period understood this and thus warned boys about the lifestyle.

There were laws against witchcraft and sorcery, too. Does that mean there were witches and sorcerors all over who needed to be legislated for?

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by DMark

Thank you!

You're welcome.

Originally Posted by HorseloverFat

Im sure the people of the period understood this and thus warned boys about the lifestyle.

If we know anything today, we know that piracy is not a "lifestyle choice."

[HorseloverFat]

>There were laws against witchcraft and sorcery, too. Does that mean there were witches and sorcerors all over who needed to be legislated for?

Sure, there were people who practiced witchcraft. Whether it got results or it didnt doesnt matter.

[JR Brown]

Originally Posted by MPB in Salt Lake

If men (pirates) sexually abuse teen boys, dosent that make a pretty strong case that the men are gay?

ETA-----Is a child predator who preys on children of thier same gender homosexual?

Not necessarily, no. Many would prefer the opposite sex but find it easier to get access to children of their own gender and are willing to screw what's available. Some are attracted to children as such, regardless of gender; offenders who are attracted to very young children (under 6 or so) are more likely to ignore gender.

[MPB in Salt Lake]

Originally Posted by JR Brown

Not necessarily, no. Many would prefer the opposite sex but find it easier to get access to children of their own gender and are willing to screw what's available. Some are attracted to children as such, regardless of gender; offenders who are attracted to very young children (under 6 or so) are more likely to ignore gender.

I would assume that there are many who would fit your description, but if for example a male pedophile is ONLY sexually attracted to male children (victims), I would think that would make him a homosexual (gay) pedophile, by definition.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by MPB in Salt Lake

I would assume that there are many who would fit your description, but if for example a male pedophile is ONLY sexually attracted to male children (victims), I would think that would make him a homosexual (gay) pedophile, by definition.

By that narrow standard, masturbation is a homosexual activity, isn't it?

[JR Brown]

Originally Posted by MPB in Salt Lake

I would assume that there are many who would fit your description, but if for example a male pedophile is ONLY sexually attracted to male children (victims), I would think that would make him a homosexual (gay) pedophile, by definition.

Well, yes, but that wasn't the question. Also, the general way the academic-types I've read treat this sort of thing is to define "orientation" on the basis of attraction to adults, so a male pedophile who is only sexually attracted to male children, and not to adults of either gender, would be a pedophile, not a homosexual.

[Captain Amazing]

Besides, if you're having sex with teenagers, you're not a pedophile. Pedophiles are sexually attracted to prepubescent children.

[panache45]

Originally Posted by MPB in Salt Lake

I would assume that there are many who would fit your description, but if for example a male pedophile is ONLY sexually attracted to male children (victims), I would think that would make him a homosexual (gay) pedophile, by definition.

No. A man who is attracted to little boys is, psychologically, virtually identical to a man who is attracted to little girls. But they are both very different from a man who is attracted to adults, either gay or straight. So he is a pedophile who happens to be attacted to boys, not a gay man who happens to be attracted to boys.

[panache45]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

By that narrow standard, masturbation is a homosexual activity, isn't it?

Unless, of course, you're a hermaphrodite.

[MPB in Salt Lake]

I would bet that if you asked the question I originally asked (post #18) to 100 random people on the street, the vast majority would say that the men in question were homosexual. They might ALSO be "pederasts" or some other label, but the fact that they prefer young men makes them gay.

[Elendil's Heir]

YouTube.com ought to have the SNL skit on the Raging Queen, but I can't find it. Pirates don't get any gayer than that... unless it's Cap'n Jack Sparrow.

[panache45]

Originally Posted by MPB in Salt Lake

I would bet that if you asked the question I originally asked (post #18) to 100 random people on the street, the vast majority would say that the men in question were homosexual. They might ALSO be "pederasts" or some other label, but the fact that they prefer young men makes them gay.

I doubt the "vast majority" would agree with you. But if so, they'd be just as wrong.

[panache45]

Many years ago I was a member of a gay libertarian group, and at one of our meetings some members of NAMBLA were there. At no time did I get the impression that I was in the company of gay men . . . or straight men. They gave me the impression of being totally asexual, but in a very dark, creepy, sinister way. I couldn't wait to get away from them. It turns out, the other members felt exactly the same way about them. Just thinking about that experience gives me the willies. I have known literally thousands of gay men over the years; believe me, those guys weren't gay.

[astro]

Obligatory-The Adventures of Miles Cowperthwaite

Can't find the video online.

[njtt]

Gay pirates? It sounds to me like like something someone just pulled out of their ass.

[Washoe]

Dammit, now I’ve got the theme song from The Love Boat stuck in my head…

[pravnik]

Originally Posted by DMark

Colibri, I think you found exactly what I was looking for! In the link to Wiki Books, the author mentions that he did a lecture and that it was widely publicized in the late 70's and hit the wire services. He goes on to mention that he got lots of mail about that article from all over. Most likely, I read one of those wire reports in a local free rag and was trying to find that book. I know I read it back then, but have never been able to find any specific reference since.
Thank you!

Originally Posted by Colibri

You're welcome.

Geez, guys, post twelve!

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by pravnik

Geez, guys, post twelve!

Sorry for overlooking your post. But without a link or description of the book, it would have been difficult for the OP to confirm that this was the one he was looking for.

[pravnik]

Originally Posted by Colibri

Sorry for overlooking your post. But without a link or description of the book, it would have been difficult for the OP to confirm that this was the one he was looking for.

I know (and you're right), I just had to throw it out there. No worries.

[DMark]

Originally Posted by pravnik

Geez, guys, post twelve!

Sorry - should have given you some credit, but the point is, I read an article in a newspaper and, considering the time frame didn't fit (late 70's newspaper article) to when that book was published (early 80's), it didn't make sense.
However, in reading that Wiki book link, the author states that he gave a lecture in the late 70's (before the book was later published) that hit the wires - and that was most certainly the article I read.
So yes, pravnik, you were correct with the book title (thanks), but it took that Wiki link to the intro of the book for me to figure out I wasn't crazy and actually had read this article in 1978 or 1979, years before the actual book publication date.
Upon reflection, I think after reading the article I even went to a few bookstores to find the book back then, but as it had not been published, they obviously couldn't find a listing yet.

BTW, thanks all for your help! Some of the comments were interesting - but would perhaps better be suited for Humble Opinion or Great Debates. For instance, other than stories about Caribbean pirates, references in that intro also mentioned Knights Templar and the French Foreign Legion as other male societies where open homosexuality might have been more than just tolerated, but perhaps even encouraged or at least a large part of the reason some men joined.
It doesn't take a great stretch of the imagination to think that men who were homosexual back then might be more inclined to join a society that was exclusively male and were in far off locations where they formed their own social (and sexual) bonds.