Hanging things on a hotel room fire sprinkler.

[mangeorge]

I maintain the life safety systems where I work, so I come into contact with a lot of professional fire sprinkler installers. I don't do it myself, I just point. From these techs, and also from sources outside the profession I've heard and read about tennants in hotels actually hanging clothes hangers on the sprinkler heads in their rooms and causing them to fail and flood the hotel.
I'm wondering whether this is an urban legend. I've seen the warning signs in rooms, and newer rooms have recessed and hidden sprinkler heads, which does lend some credence to the stories. But doing such a thing seems so stupid..
Just as a point of fact, these events appear to happen in rooms generally not affordable to the less sophisticated among us.
I'm hoping to hear from someone in the hospitality business.
Peace,
mangeorge

[Markxxx]

It would be near impossible to flood the hotel. I've worked in hotels my whole life and when the sprinkler goes off it triggers an alarm to investigate.

So yes, I'm sure people do it and yes, I'm sure that it can make the sprinkler go off but the hotel staff would get to it rather quickly

I can tell you in over 25 years of working in hotels the only trouble I've had with sprinklers and fire extinguishers and such was the result of drunk college age kids thinking it was funny.

[Andy L]

Originally Posted by mangeorge

I maintain the life safety systems where I work, so I come into contact with a lot of professional fire sprinkler installers. I don't do it myself, I just point. From these techs, and also from sources outside the profession I've heard and read about tennants in hotels actually hanging clothes hangers on the sprinkler heads in their rooms and causing them to fail and flood the hotel.
I'm wondering whether this is an urban legend. I've seen the warning signs in rooms, and newer rooms have recessed and hidden sprinkler heads, which does lend some credence to the stories. But doing such a thing seems so stupid..
Just as a point of fact, these events appear to happen in rooms generally not affordable to the less sophisticated among us.
I'm hoping to hear from someone in the hospitality business.
Peace,
mangeorge

Disclave (the Washington DC area Science Fiction Convention) 1997. A guest at the convention hotel (though not actually a member of the convention), hung S&M gear on a fire sprinkler causing a flood, and leading to that convention's later difficulties in getting a hotel (and to popular signage at other conventions saying "Fire Sprinklers are not Sex Toys")

See: http://www.wsfa.org/journal/j97/6/index.htm#bfd and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disclave for details. I wouldn't be surprised if some SDMB folks were at that con (I wasn't - this occurred before I started going to cons)

[Alex_Dubinsky]

Originally Posted by mangeorge

But doing such a thing seems so stupid..
Just as a point of fact, these events appear to happen in rooms generally not affordable to the less sophisticated among us.
I'm hoping to hear from someone in the hospitality business.
Peace,
mangeorge

Well how are they supposed to know how it works. Maybe it's magical smoke-sensing pixie dust in there... or computers. If nukes don't go off if you hit them with a hammer, why do sprinklers

[Contrapuntal]

Originally Posted by Alex_Dubinsky

Well how are they supposed to know how it works. Maybe it's magical smoke-sensing pixie dust in there... or computers. If nukes don't go off if you hit them with a hammer, why do sprinklers

If loaves of bread don't off when you hit them with a hammer, why do bullets?

[Qwakkeddup]

Think of the stupidest, most moronic thing, that you can. Now just think, if it hasn't been done once, Its been done at least twice!

[Harmonious Discord]

Hanger on fire sprinkler sets off sprinkler in dorm room.

Different dorm flood due to hanger on fire sprinkler.

Video of The Richardson Flood of 2007

[mangeorge]

Originally Posted by Markxxx

It would be near impossible to flood the hotel. I've worked in hotels my whole life and when the sprinkler goes off it triggers an alarm to investigate.

So yes, I'm sure people do it and yes, I'm sure that it can make the sprinkler go off but the hotel staff would get to it rather quickly

I can tell you in over 25 years of working in hotels the only trouble I've had with sprinklers and fire extinguishers and such was the result of drunk college age kids thinking it was funny.

You needn't take me so literally! I meant flood in the hotel. Probably the offending room and some distance below it. I don't recall the flow rate, but quite a bit of water does come out before anyone can get to the isolator valve.
I've seen what happened when two (seperate occasions) released at work. One was a fire, and the other no one would cop to.
Silly labrats.

[mangeorge]

Originally Posted by Harmonious Discord

Hanger on fire sprinkler sets off sprinkler in dorm room.

Different dorm flood due to hanger on fire sprinkler.

Video of The Richardson Flood of 2007

Thanks for those. The black in the water is bacteria. It stinks like something awful. I'd be worried about getting in it myself.

[Snnipe 70E]

Originally Posted by Markxxx

It would be near impossible to flood the hotel. I've worked in hotels my whole life and when the sprinkler goes off it triggers an alarm to investigate.

So yes, I'm sure people do it and yes, I'm sure that it can make the sprinkler go off but the hotel staff would get to it rather quickly

I can tell you in over 25 years of working in hotels the only trouble I've had with sprinklers and fire extinguishers and such was the result of drunk college age kids thinking it was funny.

A properly designed system the 1st head that goes off will spray 50 gallons of water every minute. Will not be a knee high flood, but a lot of carpet on a ground floor will get wet.

And if no engineer is on duty there will be a good chance no one on the staff will know how or where to shut off the water flow.

[Alex_Dubinsky]

Originally Posted by Contrapuntal

If loaves of bread don't off when you hit them with a hammer, why do bullets?

I knew the answer to my question.

But still. Sprinklers make me downright unnerved. I'm afraid I'll do something innocent, cause an object fly up at the ceiling and hit one of them, and then destroy everything in my office. Someone has to be working on making sprinklers less dangerous!

[Rick]

I heard from a hotel manager that the problem was often with brides who wanted a high place to hang their wedding dress with a loooooong train.
The sprinkler head was by far the highest thing in the room, so onto the head the hanger would go. Much hilarity ensued as room flooded.
Contrary to what the OP posted, lots of hotels in the medium price range have sprinklers. Courtyards by Marriott for example have sprinklers, at least in the ones I have stayed in.
Also for about the last 5-6 years these hotels have placed sticker next to every sprinkler head with a red circle a slash and a picture of a hanger.

[Wendell Wagner]

I was at the Disclave in 1997, although I commuted to it and didn't stay in the hotel. Part of the problem was that nobody at the hotel knew how to turn off the water. The guest who pulled down the sprinkler because he had tied his partner to it was a New York City policeman. He checked out of the hotel without telling anyone that the room was flooding. There was no Washington-area convention (of the sort similar to Disclave, I mean) for three years - 1998, 1999, and 2000. When they were finally able to get one organized again in 2001, it changed names (to Capclave) and its time of the year.

[mangeorge]

Originally Posted by Rick

Contrary to what the OP posted, lots of hotels in the medium price range have sprinklers. Courtyards by Marriott for example have sprinklers, at least in the ones I have stayed in.
Also for about the last 5-6 years these hotels have placed sticker next to every sprinkler head with a red circle a slash and a picture of a hanger.

Not sure where you got that, but as fas as I know all rooms have sprinklers.

[KCB615]

Originally Posted by Snnipe 70E

A properly designed system the 1st head that goes off will spray 50 gallons of water every minute. Will not be a knee high flood, but a lot of carpet on a ground floor will get wet.

Not quite.

There are several factors in determining the flow of a sprinkler head. What is the hazard class of what is being protected? Light? Ordinary 1 or 2? Extra 1 or 2, etc? Each hazard class has an increasing density of water that needs to be applied, expressed in gallons per minute per square foot (in the US). This density can change based on how much the expected fire area is (sprinkler systems are not designed to flow from every head, just a portion of them, called the "design area" when you design the system). For a hotel, which falls under light hazard, you need to flow 0.1 gpm/sq ft over a 1500 square foot area.

If we take a typical goodly-sized hotel room, each room is about 10' x 20'. That's 200 square feet. If there's only one head per room (which is commonly done), for that 200 square foot room, at 0.10 gpm/sq ft, that's 20 gallons per minute from the first head.

Granted, that's the lowest rate you'd be allowed to flow, and assuming that you would have eight other rooms being designed for (1500 sq ft / 200 per room), the "most remote" head is the first to be calculated. To get that flow from a normal half-inch sprinkler head, we need to put 13 psi at 20 gpm to that head to flow properly. Since the residual water pressure is going to be higher back up the line (since you lose pressure as you travel down the pipe), the next head closer to the source will flow a little bit more than 20 gpm. The next head back will be a little more than the 2nd one, etc.

But 50 gpm for the first head? That's a lot of water. A whole lot of water. Quantities of water that greatly complicate design and installation of the sprinkler system, particularly when you add in the additional heads that are going to flow more than the most remote head. Your supply main would be very, very large. For those rates, we're talking extra large orifice heads, the kind you should see protecting a big box store like Wal-Mart or Home Depot. Nothing you should ever see in a hotel or office building.


As for so many hotels being protected by a sprinkler system, the federal government will not allow its employees to stay in a non-sprinkled hotel on the fed's dollar. Any hotel that has any hope of attracting federal workers to stay there is sprinkled. Add to that the fire codes of many, many states that require hotels to be sprinkled, and almost all of them are.

[mangeorge]

As far as I know, only the head affected by the fire (the glass bulb bursted) will release. There are deluge systems, but that's a different story. They have a special valve on the "dry" sprinkler leg that will open if any water flows in the wet portion of the system.
Is "bursted" a word?

[Snnipe 70E]

Originally Posted by KCB615

Not quite.
But 50 gpm for the first head? That's a lot of water. A whole lot of water. Quantities of water that greatly complicate design and installation of the sprinkler system, particularly when you add in the additional heads that are going to flow more than the most remote head. Your supply main would be very, very large. For those rates, we're talking extra large orifice heads, the kind you should see protecting a big box store like Wal-Mart or Home Depot. Nothing you should ever see in a hotel or office building.


.

The 50 gpm for the first head was what I learned 30 years ago. Have you ever seen a head go off. It is a whole lot of water. Most sprinkler systems that I have been around have over 50, more like 80 psi at the high point. For the foot print the lines on a high rise do compair to a big box store.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by mangeorge

Not sure where you got that, but as fas as I know all rooms have sprinklers.

I got it from

Just as a point of fact, these events appear to happen in rooms generally not affordable to the less sophisticated among us.

It was late, I was tired and probably misread your intent.

[mangeorge]

Originally Posted by Rick

I got it from
It was late, I was tired and probably misread your intent.

That statement is a little unclear. I meant that the reports were not restricted to Motel 6 and the like.

[ghostman]

not to mention, but almost every hotel that I know of has a fire pump to supplement the water pressure. So, flows from a sprinkler head could be more than the domestic water supply.

Just to add to the anecdotes, I've responded to 4 (that i can think of) broken sprinkler heads that were all from people hanging stuff on the head in their hotel rooms.

[dracoi]

Originally Posted by mangeorge

Not sure where you got that, but as fas as I know all rooms have sprinklers.

It would depend on fire codes, but every room I've ever seen in the US does have sprinklers. Often, the lower-rent rooms are older hotels that had to retrofit the sprinklers in, and this often means more of the sprinkler head and/or pipes are visible (to limit the amount of sheet rock that has to be cut away and replaced).

When I managed apartments, I saw records from a previous manager about a sprinkler pipe that burst. (No word on why). It flooded six apartments - the one with the break, the one next to it, and of the ones below those two. The cleanup was a horrendous mess and the tenants lost a lot of furniture and other items to water damage and mildew.

[KCB615]

Originally Posted by Snnipe 70E

The 50 gpm for the first head was what I learned 30 years ago. Have you ever seen a head go off. It is a whole lot of water. Most sprinkler systems that I have been around have over 50, more like 80 psi at the high point. For the foot print the lines on a high rise do compair to a big box store.

About 10 or so heads per year for the past 15 years - yeah, I've seen them in operation. I've been under them with a pair of wedges to close heads caused by mechanical damage (forklifts and contractors), frozen pipes, and one Grinnell on/off head that didn't get replaced in the 70's with the rest of the world. I've also been underneath them fighting (or trying to find) an actual fire 20 or 30 times. Yeah, I've seen heads go off - up close and personal.

Pipe size does not determine the rate of flow of a sprinkler head. The size of the head determines flow rates - it's called the K factor. Put it in the formula Q = K * sqrt P where Q is the flow, K is the K factor listed for that head, and P is the pressure at the head. Almost every head you see in an office, hotel, apartment, strip mall, or school is a half inch head with a K factor of 5.4 to 5.6. If you have a K=5.6 head, at 80psi residual, yes, you will get 50 gpm. The system is not designed to flow that much water - 50 gpm is overkill. A "properly designed" system will flow maybe 35 gpm from a normal head.

As for comparing a high rise to a box store, there is no comparison that can reasonably be made. The correct heads in a Wal-Mart are called ELO - Extra Large Orifice heads. They have a K factor of 12 to 18. That's 84 to 126 gpm at 50psi. That is a huge amount of water. Huge water means huge pipes. Huge pipes means huge expense - not something you would need or see in a high rise, there isn't enough stuff there to generate the fire loads that an ELO head would be used for. High rises are office buildings, not warehouses. Look closely at the heads in a high rise - they're half inch, K=5.4 to K=5.6 heads, the same you'd see in any office.

To make a flood look like a lot of water does not take much. Dump a gallon of water on the floor, it looks huge. Sprinkler systems do a lot of work with a comparative little bit of water. The smallest hose line I'm going to drag in flows at least 125 gallons per minute. If it's a high rise, I'm looking for 250+. That's the true value of sprinklers - they knock the fire down at the beginning with a little water before I have to wreck the place with my very inefficient water application devices and techniques.

[blondebear]

My friend smacked a sprinkler head in her bedroom when she was shaking/airing out her sheets. It set off all the heads in her condo unit and the fire alarm activated for her whole building. Luckily her neighbor was a fireman who knew where the shut off valve was. Still, the flooding caused quite a bit of damage to walls, carpets, furniture, books, wall hangings, etc.

[Snnipe 70E]

Originally Posted by KCB615

About 10 or so heads per year for the past 15 years - yeah, I've seen them in operation. I've been under them with a pair of wedges to close heads caused by mechanical damage (forklifts and contractors), frozen pipes, and one Grinnell on/off head that didn't get replaced in the 70's with the rest of the world. I've also been underneath them fighting (or trying to find) an actual fire 20 or 30 times. Yeah, I've seen heads go off - up close and personal.
.

I am glad that I do not have the experience that you do. Never been under one that I did not have the isolation valve first.

[cantara]

My sister-in-law works at a Holiday Inn here in Ontario. Within the last couple of months a bride hung her dress on the sprinkler and set it off. Apparently there was 4" of water before it was turned off, damaging 4 rooms on 2 floors and the bill is already over $90,000.

The hotel staff were not allowed to turn off the water until the fire department responded. Doing so would have resulted in fines. Obviously the cost would have been less to take the fine, but the safety of the guests takes precedence.

[Rick]

Did the she get Priority Club points on the 90k?